Sabonis in his prime..

[Fitz303]

When I watched him play he had this klutz aura about him. I remember one time he almost tripped on himself and was waving his arms in circles and smacked Rasheed Wallace across the face. Wallace smacks him over the head and Sabonis had this look a kid has when he's being bullied. I always felt he was the last in the pecking order on the Blazers roster. To me he just seemed like a very talented and good role player that you couldn't count on to carry your franchise.

you could say the same about jordan when he came back in his mid 30s to play for the wizards, if you hadnt seen him play before

[Cevap]

A rich man's Vlade Divac, very very good. Smart, great passer, did great with Real Madrid

[Ryoga Hibiki]

People do understand. He is one of the great what-ifs of the NBA, along with Bill Walton, Connie Hawkins, and maybe Len Bias.

Walton is on another level, because he did prove himself at the highest level in the NBA, so we do know all he needed was health.
At the same time, I think we have a good idea of how good was Connie Hawkins who did play several pro seasons.
Len Bias is just a total what if, because he realized nothing.

Sabonis is different, because
1) he showed what he could have been without injuries, seeing how good he was with his knees shot in limited minutes but
2) he was NEVER healthy in his career, so the key was not him coming sooner (it's not like at 25 he could have handle a full NBA season with starter minutes) but being injury free

[sh00n]

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Just about any NBA player can dominate Euro-leagues... Anthony Parker was a Euro-league MVP and he wouldnt start on most teams in the NBA... Sabonis was a great player, but considering he wasnt playing against the best (in his prime) NO ONE can just automatically assume that he would be better than people who dominated the NBA like Moses, Hakeem, Shaq and Kareem... I dont have any problem saying he would have been as good as a Patrick Ewing had he played in the NBA in his prime... But to say he could have been the 2nd best center EVER had he played in the NBA in his prime is ridiculous imo

Parker was also over the hill once he made it back to the NBA. Had he come over in his prime it would've been a completely different story. Sabonis would've been the best since Wilt, flat out, had he came to the NBA earlier.

[That Nicka]

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Parker was also over the hill once he made it back to the NBA. Had he come over in his prime it would've been a completely different story. Sabonis would've been the best since Wilt, flat out, had he came to the NBA earlier.

Parker was only 31 when he came back... How is that over the hill?? He has stated before that his goal was always to return to the NBA... He didnt come back until he was 31 because he was not that good, and the passed two year he has only been decent

You can keep saying that Sabonis would have been the best since Wilt, but there is nothing to base that on... No telling how much he would have dominated the NBA in his prime... You cant just assume he would have... I can say Len Bias would have been better than Jordan, but that means absolutely nothing

[penbeast0]

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Walton is on another level, because he did prove himself at the highest level in the NBA, so we do know all he needed was health.
At the same time, I think we have a good idea of how good was Connie Hawkins who did play several pro seasons.
Len Bias is just a total what if, because he realized nothing.

I don't think we do have a clue what Connie Hawkins could have achieved. He played 2 1/2 seasons in very inferior competition winning MVP both years despite often coasting against the inferior competition . . . at age 19 and age 27 if I remember right. He then tore up his knee and was never fully healthy again though he retooled his game to be a jump shooting wing rather than an explosive big man and did make an NBA 1st team in Phoenix. However, between losing what is traditionally the best statistical years of his career (24-27), losing the chance to learn team basketball rather than playground, and losing the chance to play against the best, then being merely a shadow of himself after his knee injury, I don't think we ever saw what he was capable of. People at the time said he was like a taller Elgin Baylor but then again they say someone is the next Michael Jordan every 2 or 3 years too.

(ABL and 1st 2 years in the ABA . . . by the third year, the ABA started getting competitive with the NBA but in the first two, it was closer to the ABL . . . a collection of former college and AAU players, a few marginal NBA players and one or two aging NBA stars, plus Connie and Rick Barry . . . ABL might have been better with guys like Bill Bridges and George Yardley until George Steinbrenner destroyed the league).

[Ryoga Hibiki]

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Parker was only 31 when he came back... How is that over the hill?? He has stated before that his goal was always to return to the NBA... He didnt come back until he was 31 because he was not that good, and the passed two year he has only been decent

Parker didn't dominate actually, he was arguably the best player but he wasn't on another level like Sabonis or Petrovic were years ago (nobody in europe dominates individually)
He was very similar to what you're seeing now, just in a system where he was given more responsibilities to create.
If anything, Parker case shows that the difference is not that large.

You can keep saying that Sabonis would have been the best since Wilt, but there is nothing to base that on... No telling how much he would have dominated the NBA in his prime... You cant just assume he would have... I can say Len Bias would have been better than Jordan, but that means absolutely nothing

Sabonis could have become as good as anyone if healthy, I think we can say that for several reasons:
- before 84 he was an incredible prospect, rated as the best of the world by most scouts (not hard to believe, don't you think?)
- you saw how he developed in a injury plagued career, and you know how good a totally over the hill Sabonis was in the NBA. Only superstar centers average per40min what he did, and there's no reason to think that he would at least been able to keep that efficiency while averaging more minutes, if younger and healthier
- thanks to old footage, we have also an idea of what kind of natural athlete he was, letting use estimate how good of a player that athlete would have been at 27-30, considering how he developed

What's also true, though, is that we don't even know if he had all the intangibles and the will to be GREAT, considering we have good reasons to think he didn't (arguably neither Shaq and Wilt didn't, probably) possess them.
I see no reason to think he wouldn't have been on par with Robinson, but to be on par with Kareem, for instance, you need to WIN A LOT, and nobody can guarantee he'd have had everything to do it.

[ponder276]

People always overrate players they haven't seen much of, assuming they were perfect because they didn't get a chance to see their many flaws.
I believe Sabonis played in top-level European competition for 13 seasons (1981-1994, age 17-30), and won European Player of the Year 4 times over that span. Do you think guys like Shaq or Hakeem would only have won that award 4 times over the same time period?
He was clearly a great C, but to call him the greatest since Wilt is a huge stretch.

[TrueLAfan]

Couple of comments.

Sabonis is not a

[penbeast0]

I don't think he proved quite as much as those three, I'd have him in the next group with Walton, Bob McAdoo, Robert Parish, etc. btw Where would you put Walton?

[TrueLAfan]

Walton is tough. Peak is always better than career

[jeahwe]

Sabonis won a lot in Europe; lots of Eurobasket/Euroleague championships. Great play with national teams.

are you sure...?

because ho won only ONE euroleague championship (in 1995, and year later his team - real madrit - without him advanced to final four) and only ONE eurobasket championship (in 1985, when he was 19 years old...)

Sabonis could (and in fact he was) be a better offensive player than Bill Walton, but much worse on defense. For sure he wouldn't be "the best since Wilt". In best case scenario not much better than Ewing. Robinson's level was out of his reach.

[#1KnicksFan]

The guy was a maestro on offense from the old footage I've seen (and course NBA games).

He was tough too, not a Euro soft pussycat.

I mean we're talking about an UBER skilled Center who could pass like a guard, shoot like a guard, and in his hay-day, sometimes dribble like one.

I'd say he's gotta be ranked above Walton because he had a longer prime supposedly.

[TrueLAfan]

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are you sure...?

because ho won only ONE euroleague championship (in 1995, and year later his team - real madrit - without him advanced to final four) and only ONE eurobasket championship (in 1985, when he was 19 years old...)

World Championship (Russia) 1982
European Championship (Russia) 1985
Olympic Gold Medal (Russia) 1988
European (Saporta) Cup (Real Madrid) 1992
Euroleague Club Championship (Real Madrid) 1995

Soviet League Championships (Zalgiris Kaunas) 1981-3
Spanish League Championships (Real Madrid) 1993-4

That's leaving out the bronze and silver medals, and the second and third place finishes. Let's not split hairs over semantics. Sabonis won a lot. (And that year--1985--he was "only" 19 years old, he was the Eurobasket MVP, and European player of the year.

btw...I don't think Sabonis was as good as Walton...on offense or defense. Walton could run a break, too. What hurts Walton is that his peak was only 170 games long. And, again, for me you have to be a dominant player for more than 2 seasons worth of basketball. I understand if other people played differently

[jeahwe]

oh, I don't want to argue about words, but the highest competition level was in euroleague. for example in 80s USSR national team was almost like dream team in 90s. we can't judge

[The_Believer]

Just wondering - Do any of you think Sabas could have been >= prime Shaq? How about better than KG or Duncan, etc?

[Village Idiot]

Imagine if Kevin Love were 6 inches taller and athletic. That was Arvydas Sabonis.

I saw Sabonis play in person when I was living in Spain and he was a lot more athletic than he was when he came to Portland. A 20 year-old Sabonis must have been impressive.

[blkout]

Just wondering - Do any of you think Sabas could have been >= prime Shaq?

I really, really doubt it. He'd probably be a "smarter" player than Shaq or whatever, but prime Shaq was incredible.