Elton Brand or Josh Smith?

Post #21 » by **dockingsched** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:23 am

health? brand coming off of missing an entire summer/pre-season/70+ games already put up 17/8.

Duiz · Post #22 » by **Duiz** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:05 am

I'd take Brand on any day. I shaped my game on his game.

Goubot · Post #23 » by **Goubot** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:28 am

High 5 wrote:This is a silly comparison. A healthy Brand is one of the best players in the league. There's only 2 or 3 PFs that you can say are better.

Josh Smith's season statisically put him in a class alone with DRob and Hakeem and he put up those numbers at 22. He has potential to be great, but he has a lot to learn.

I hope you mean this in terms of accumulating steals and blocks, because anything more would be insulting to those two. Smith's offensive game is nowhere near close, and his total defensive impact isn't really comparable either.

conleyorbust · Post #24 » by **conleyorbust** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:34 pm

richboy wrote:Is shot blocking the most overrated aspect of a players game today. To me Josh Smith blocks shots but he doesn't protect the basket like lets say a young Mutumbo. There are guys like Duncan that block less shots than Josh Smith but change more shots and really anchor a defense.

Well I think Tim Duncan has been the best defender in the league for a long time so I won't argue with on there. On the other hand there is no statistic to back your implication that Smith isn't an extremely effective defender.

You can say whatever you want about his potential to become an elite offensive player, thats speculation at this point, but you are being pretty transparent when you imply that he isn't a very effective defender.

richboy · Post #25 » by **richboy** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:27 pm

I didn't say he wasn't effective. I'm saying that he has nice block shot totals but can't anchor a defense. The only stat you need is go look at the Atlanta defense. Josh can block 4,5,6 shots in a game and teams are still dominating in the paint on the Hawks. Whats the point in that.

Not to mention Josh is probably the King of the recovery block. He gets beat on a play then recovers to block his man shot. It great for the stats but if he didn't get beat in the first place you wouldn't have to recover to block the shot.

conleyorbust · Post #26 » by **conleyorbust** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:46 pm

richboy wrote:I didn't say he wasn't effective. I'm saying that he has nice block shot totals but can't anchor a defense. The only stat you need is go look at the Atlanta defense. Josh can block 4,5,6 shots in a game and teams are still dominating in the paint on the Hawks. Whats the point in that.

Not to mention Josh is probably the King of the recovery block. He gets beat on a play then recovers to block his man shot. It great for the stats but if he didn't get beat in the first place you wouldn't have to recover to block the shot.

Considering that he has the best defensive on/off court in the league, I wouldn't really say he can't anchor the D. The fact that we have only one shotblocker on a team full of defensive seives (Bibby, Childress, Williams) and his backups are Marvin Williams and Zaza Pachulia accounts for our defensive ineptitude. We are better defensive team than Charlotte and they have a guy that most consider a legit anchor + a legit backup + Gerald Wallace who people think is a solid defender.

Atlanta has 1 good defensive player (Smith) 1 decent defensive player (Joe when he's into it) and one average defensive player (Horford). That covers it. Teams gameplan around his shotblocking but it is so easy to penetrate at the point of attack so easily that you can either give help and worry about the easy dish or you can let them take the layin.

wigglestrue · Post #27 » by **wigglestrue** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:52 pm

If I wanted to win next year: Brand.
If I wanted to win 3-4 years from now: Smith.

High 5 · Post #28 » by **High 5** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:52 pm

Goubot wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I hope you mean this in terms of accumulating steals and blocks, because anything more would be insulting to those two. Smith's offensive game is nowhere near close, and his total defensive impact isn't really comparable either.

I included "statistically" and "numbers" in there for a reason.

As far as shot blocking being overrated, notice how EVERYONE changes their shot around the basketball when Smith is near them. I have seen a ton of easy layups blown by the other team this year because they were nervous about getting their shot blocked.

richboy · Post #29 » by **richboy** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:08 pm

conleyorbust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Considering that he has the best defensive on/off court in the league, I wouldn't really say he can't anchor the D. The fact that we have only one shotblocker on a team full of defensive seives (Bibby, Childress, Williams) and his backups are Marvin Williams and Zaza Pachulia accounts for our defensive ineptitude. We are better defensive team than Charlotte and they have a guy that most consider a legit anchor + a legit backup + Gerald Wallace who people think is a solid defender.

Atlanta has 1 good defensive player (Smith) 1 decent defensive player (Joe when he's into it) and one average defensive player (Horford). That covers it. Teams gameplan around his shotblocking but it is so easy to penetrate at the point of attack so easily that you can either give help and worry about the easy dish or you can let them take the layin.

Defensive on court off court is just as much about your backups defensive ability than your own ability. The Hawks give up 108 PPP when he is in the game. The fact that its so much worse when he is out is a testament to the horrible defensive players on that roster. How do they have a top 3 young core again? Oh thats another story.

Right now you really think Josh Smith is an anchor on defense. Your literally watching KG anchor the Celtics first hand. Shutting down his defender and playing amazing help defense and protecting the hoop. You really think Josh Smith has shown the ability to anchor a top NBA defense. Cause I can tell you that I don't see teams having a problem going inside on the Hawks.

Hunter · Post #30 » by **Hunter** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:52 pm

Smith is an intriguing player, but when push comes to shove you take the established 20 & 10 franchise player pretty easily.

conleyorbust · Post #31 » by **conleyorbust** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:12 pm

richboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Defensive on court off court is just as much about your backups defensive ability than your own ability. The Hawks give up 108 PPP when he is in the game. The fact that its so much worse when he is out is a testament to the horrible defensive players on that roster. How do they have a top 3 young core again? Oh thats another story.

Right now you really think Josh Smith is an anchor on defense. Your literally watching KG anchor the Celtics first hand. Shutting down his defender and playing amazing help defense and protecting the hoop. You really think Josh Smith has shown the ability to anchor a top NBA defense. Cause I can tell you that I don't see teams having a problem going inside on the Hawks.

For one, don't confuse me with someone else. I would say we have a decent foundation moving forward but nothing beyond that.

I acknowledged the rest of the team was garbage on D. Before the Bibby trade we were the 8th ranked team in defensive efficiency and Smith's +/- numbers were the same.

Don't get me wrong, Smith is not Tim Duncan. On the other hand you aren't making an argument beyond your standard, "blocks don't mean anything and stats that don't support my argument don't mean anything :. Smith isn't a good defender".

On KG: his team last season was ranked 21st in defensive efficiency. Does that mean he can't be a defensive anchor or does it mean that he wasn't last season but he is now?

ITK9 · Post #32 » by **ITK9** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:57 pm

Brand very very EASILY

richboy · Post #33 » by **richboy** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:25 am

[quote="conleyorbust"][/quote]

We have more than one year to see what KG has done. KG has anchored good defensive teams in the past in Minnesota. Were talking about a 7 footer with long arms that has shown the ability to keep people from attacking the basket. Now he doesn't do to the level of Duncan but we have seen him do it.

Josh Smith is a guy with SF size. Doesn't really stand out in size among the players on his own team. He forces turnovers which has a positive effect on on court/off court numbers but you can't build a defense on one players ability to force turnovers.

I'm just showcasing the problem with the stat. Its not that I don't like the stat. I just don't see how saying Josh is top in defensive on court means he a defensive anchor.

conleyorbust · Post #34 » by **conleyorbust** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:28 pm

richboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

We have more than one year to see what KG has done. KG has anchored good defensive teams in the past in Minnesota. Were talking about a 7 footer with long arms that has shown the ability to keep people from attacking the basket. Now he doesn't do to the level of Duncan but we have seen him do it.

Josh Smith is a guy with SF size. Doesn't really stand out in size among the players on his own team. He forces turnovers which has a positive effect on on court/off court numbers but you can't build a defense on one players ability to force turnovers.

I'm just showcasing the problem with the stat. Its not that I don't like the stat. I just don't see how saying Josh is top in defensive on court means he a defensive anchor.

That he hasn't been on a top defensive team is hardly a fair argument to make about a 22 year old who has been on a team with weak personnel his entire career.

Smith is bigger than Ben Wallace, he's a much more effective man defender than Camby, as well as being excellent when forced away from the basket. A blocked shot isn't really a turnover, its a miss. The threat of having a shot blocked keeps players from taking easy shots, I don't see how you can make an argument that an elite shotblocker can't anchor a defense because he's 6'9.

Post #35 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:26 am

Josh is about 6'10 235, with super long arms, and freakish athletic ability.

Not SF sized........

richboy · Post #36 » by **richboy** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:39 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:Josh is about 6'10 235, with super long arms, and freakish athletic ability.

Not SF sized........

Well by draft express he was measured as 6'8 1/4 at the pre draft camp. His arm measurements were longer than average but they were not super long arms. His standing reach was 8'10 which is only 2 inches more than JR Smith and just alittle less than Al Horford now. His wingspan is 7 feet which is nice but not even close to Tyrus Thomas or Kevin Durant. Matter of fact Marvin Williams the SF has the exact same measurements in height and is longer than Josh. Statisically with arms up Josh is 3rd tallest on the team and only slightly bigger than Joe Johnson.

NOw the thing that sets him apart is that 40 inch vertical.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... ft=0&sort=

The Hawks give up a ton of easy shots. Thats the thing that I see when watching them play. I don't see anyone afraid to attack the basket or go inside. Ben Wallace perhaps. Although he doesn't rebound like Ben. Defensive rebounding is perhaps the most important part of being an anchor. I don't think he is as long, or strong as Ben. The Pistons interior defense wasn't all that great until they got really there best defender Rasheed Wallace.

Duiz · Post #37 » by **Duiz** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:42 pm

People grow up you know richboy.

Anyways, Elton Brand has much more of an impact on a game than Josh Smith, specially the fact that he doesn't need a fast break to generate some points. Also his fadeways are almost unguardable,

I don't see the point of wasting your time with Josh Smith.

richboy · Post #38 » by **richboy** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:19 pm

well 6'8.25 in the NBA will be listed as 6'9. Perhaps he grew but in comparison to other 6'10 players around the league I doubt it.

High 5 · Post #39 » by **High 5** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:27 pm

Duiz wrote:People grow up you know richboy.

Anyways, Elton Brand has much more of an impact on a game than Josh Smith, specially the fact that he doesn't need a fast break to generate some points. Also his fadeways are almost unguardable,

I don't see the point of wasting your time with Josh Smith.

Josh doesn't need the fast break. Did you see that drive he had in the 3rd quarter last night between KG and someone else? The Hawks just got out running last night like they should and he shined. He has scored 30+ multiple times doing work in the post, though.

Elton Brand or Josh Smith?

Who would you rather have?