60's Game Footage vs. Current Game Footage

[Harmless]

^he said he used to dunk on a 12 foot rim back in college.

Personally, I didn't really doubt he could. It's certainly plausible. Quite a handful of people have done it so it's not impossible. But the claim was that Wilt had a 50 inch vertical. IIRC, Wilt said it himself.

[The Main Event]

The more that i think about it the more this all makes sense. I have no doubt that physical specimens such as Wilt were very few and far between during the 60's. As mentioned in a previous post, i realize that there were other 7 footers out there; however, none as athletic as Wilt. Today, we see big men like Dwight, KG, Shaq(prime), Amare, who have conditioned us into expecting great athletic big men. This can be attributed to better scouting and an increase in basketball players worldwide since the 60's.
Back then, Wilt was one of a kind. People watching him would be mesmorized by his game and would only naturally embellish some of his feats. Do you not think that if Dwight were to take Wilts place during the 60's and people saw him do the 'kiss the rim dunk' that people would make claims that he too had a 50" vertical?
The truth is, these people actually believed that Wilt had a 50" vertical because all they had to go on was their memory.
I have no doubt that Wilt was an unbelievably athletic big man, especially when considering the time period, but to entertain some of these outrageous claims is to say that he was not of this world.

[writerman]

The more that i think about it the more this all makes sense. I have no doubt that physical specimens such as Wilt were very few and far between during the 60's. As mentioned in a previous post, i realize that there were other 7 footers out there; however, none as athletic as Wilt. Today, we see big men like Dwight, KG, Shaq(prime), Amare, who have conditioned us into expecting great athletic big men. This can be attributed to better scouting and an increase in basketball players worldwide since the 60's.
Back then, Wilt was one of a kind. People watching him would be mesmorized by his game and would only naturally embellish some of his feats. Do you not think that if Dwight were to take Wilts place during the 60's and people saw him do the 'kiss the rim dunk' that people would make claims that he too had a 50" vertical?
The truth is, these people actually believed that Wilt had a 50" vertical because all they had to go on was their memory.
I have no doubt that Wilt was an unbelievably athletic big man, especially when considering the time period, but to entertain some of these outrageous claims is to say that he was not of this world.

Wilt was certainly one of a kind in his era. Where you and I part company is when you suggest there is anyone playing today that compares to him. There just isn't.

I've been watching the NBA for a long time. Shaq prime was dominant. Howard is a physical specimen. Garnett is a great athlete. But none of them compares overall to Wilt--not even close. His numbers, were he playing in his prime right now, might be down somewhat because of the slower pace of the game today, but he would still be significantly better than anyone else in the league. Wilt played against centers at least as good as, and in most cases better than, any in the league today, and he consistently destroyed them.

I'll say it and I'm not embarrassed to say it; unless there really is a Superman, Wilt was about as close to one as you can get and still be mortal and subject to the laws of physics.

[The Main Event]

The only reason that i agree with you is because of the environment in which Wilt accomplished these feats. If Wilt was given the same trainers, apparel, and overall conditioning that the NBA players today get, i have no doubt that he would be near unstoppable. However, that's not to say that he wouldn't be scored on by the Shaqs, the Yaos, the Dwights, etc. I think it would be a real eye opener to him to see that there was alot more competition that could dominate the post like he could. Also, keep in mind that Wilt never had to defend the slashers that we have in todays game. That is a completely different element that would have forced Wilt to diversify his defensive game.
This is completely speculative, but i feel that it's safe to assume that Wilt rarely had to concern himself with guards or forwards slashing to the hole like the Lebrons, D. Wills, Wades and Kobes of our time do.

[writerman]

The only reason that i agree with you is because of the environment in which Wilt accomplished these feats. If Wilt was given the same trainers, apparel, and overall conditioning that the NBA players today get, i have no doubt that he would be near unstoppable. However, that's not to say that he wouldn't be scored on by the Shaqs, the Yaos, the Dwights, etc. I think it would be a real eye opener to him to see that there was alot more competition that could dominate the post like he could. Also, keep in mind that Wilt never had to defend the slashers that we have in todays game. That is a completely different element that would have forced Wilt to diversify his defensive game.
This is completely speculative, but i feel that it's safe to assume that Wilt rarely had to concern himself with guards or forwards slashing to the hole like the Lebrons, D. Wills, Wades and Kobes of our time do.

with all due respect, TME, you need to research the game of Jerry West and some of the other guards of that era.

[penbeast0]

He has something of a point writerman. There were driving guard, particularly at the point (rather than the wing slashers like today) but because there was no three point line, the middle was packed much tighter with people and slashing was much less important than outside jump shooting and low post scoring. Also, the refereeing tended to call charging much more (even without excessive flopping) and blocking much less so driving INTO people didn't have the same reward as today . . . even without the Bill Bridges types that would kneecap the drive and dunk type skywalkers.

[Harmless]

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Wilt was certainly one of a kind in his era. Where you and I part company is when you suggest there is anyone playing today that compares to him. There just isn't.

I've been watching the NBA for a long time. Shaq prime was dominant. Howard is a physical specimen. Garnett is a great athlete. But none of them compares overall to Wilt--not even close. His numbers, were he playing in his prime right now, might be down somewhat because of the slower pace of the game today, but he would still be significantly better than anyone else in the league. Wilt played against centers at least as good as, and in most cases better than, any in the league today, and he consistently destroyed them.

I'll say it and I'm not embarrassed to say it; unless there really is a Superman, Wilt was about as close to one as you can get and still be mortal and subject to the laws of physics.

I'm not gonna dispute you saying that Wilt was a physical specimen, because he obviously was.

But the flaw in your argument is that it's based on your subjective point of view. You start with "I've been watching the NBA for a long time" but does that argument really hold any water? Your baseline is Wilt's competition vs Shaq's competition. Wilt obviously dominated his peers so thoroughly, in a way that NONE of the modern big men did to their peers. However, that doesn't mean anything because the players in Wilt's era obviously didn't compete against the modern big men today. So how do we make an objective comparison?

I won't argue the possibility that Wilt is better than Shaq in all aspects, because for all we know, it's true. But I will dispute your positive assertion that Wilt IS 100% for sure better than Shaq because you have no way of objectively assessing that.

I'd also like to add one thing to the 60's vs current players debate. Pro-moderns like to mention that 60's center were composed mainly of 6'9" white guys, which the pro-60's would counter (correctly) that they were measured barefoot.

Given that, Wilt, who is supposedly 7'1" - 7'2", would be measured as 7'3" - 7'4" today. So he would STILL be head and shoulders above his competition in terms of size.

[cb4_89]

stop using wilt as an example for anything. He was a huge outlier that doesn't need to be talked about when comparing the eras

[Harmless]

stop using wilt as an example for anything. He was a huge outlier that doesn't need to be talked about when comparing the eras

Wilt was a part of that era. Should we neglect Shaq since he's an outlier too?

[The Main Event]

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[/b]

with all due respect, TME, you need to research the game of Jerry West and some of the other guards of that era.

I'm not trying to take away from the guards of that time; however, as was mentioned earlier, because there was no 3 point line the paint was much more congested back then. Combine that with a new breed of slashing wing players and Wilt is looking at a whole other ball game when it comes to defense.

[G35]

The only way to settle this would to have a group of people all sit down together and watch the games from the 60's. Then there would be none of this conjecture.

I'm watching NBA TB right now and they have the Celtics Lakers on from the 60's. There is no wonder players were all averaging so many reb's. These guys on both teams come down and are just launching shots. And they are throwing up bricks. No need for a 24 second shot clock because I have watched 5 minutes of a quarter and not once did they take more than 10 seconds of the shot clock.

I'm really starting to think that this talk about how players were so much more fundamental back then is a figment of people's imagination. Kobe get's vilified for taking some poor shots and I see Jerry West, KC Jones just taking some off balance shots that catch nothing but air and no once blinks an eye.

Coaches nowadays would bench a player that came down and took the shots these guys were taking......


Edit Game 7 of the 1966 finals, the combined FG% has to be below 40%. Elgin Baylor has put up some absolute terrible shots. I don't think they should show these games because it's no comparison with the current game......

[Wade3Iverson]

^^^I feel the same way when I watch NBA TV and youtube clips.

I sincerely try to see the beauty and fundamentals back then, but its simply not there. It very hard for me to imagine them playing in the league today......even with modern training and nutrition.

And I think players today would transition much more easily if they played in the 60's then visa versa.

[Warspite]

Was watching the 65 Finals last night.

1. They play playground ball with no set plays, screens or picks.

2. Jerry West looks 6'6" and he either has 4% body fat or hes lifting weights. Theres no doubt that West is better than anyone on the floor.

3. Russell has already lost a step and is slowing down. He looks less like Deke and more like Ben Wallace. The big thing about Russell is that he alwasy seem to get the key rebound or block or hit the hook shot in the clutch moments. Whenever the Lakers look like they are about to take over Russell steps up.

4. La Russo looks like he can play today. Reminds me of Okur.

5. Sam Jones and KC Jones look like scrubs....

6. Hondos full court defense is realy impressive. He picks up every Laker and guards him the entire length of the court.

7. Baylor looks like Melo: No defense and horrible shot selection. A pure gunner who cant adjust to Russell being in the lane.

8. The rims are not breakaway and are very hard. It looks alot like a High School gym (My JRHigh school was built in 1918). I know the film makes players look slightly slower so I dont see a big issue with speed. I do see it with explosiveness but if your a jumpshooter and your playing +40 mins I can see the need to conserve energy. No Gatoraide for 10 more yrs.

9. The ref called more traveling than he did shooting fouls. In fact only West seemed to get to the FT line. The def player was allowed alot more lattitude. They werent being mugged but the def players were moving there feet on defense not swiping with there hands. KC Jones could keep his body on West the entire drive and as long as he kept his arms up he was not called for a block. If you do that today you get 3 fouls on the same play. Players didnt go for blocks but they went for steals. the refs swallowed the whistle alot IMHO.

10. Alot of guys are pulling up from 15ft and shooting. Nobody takes it the rim. No reverse layups at all.

Now the question is asked why???

A. Were the players unable to get to the rim or were they coached not too???


To be honest with you they looked like the Detroit Pistons on offense with the FF on the VCR. The style was ugly and hard to watch. Alot like the WNBA.

Hindsight is 20/20 and if you believe that style, coaching, and rules havent changed in 45 yrs then I can see where you can believe that past players werent very good. I tend to look at players and ask "Can he adapt?" Thats all that matters to me. You cant tell me that the FG% of most 60s players wouldnt improve today. I dont know how much because they surely would be taking fewer shots. What I saw was a differant style and almost a differant game. Russell, Hondo, West and Cousy could start and or be allstars. the rest well they looked like bench players today. Balyor I believe has to be a better player because he had a horrible game.

This is where I differ to Writerman simply because I only saw 1 game of a Playoff series and didnt have the luxury of watching these teams in the regular season. He was there and he saw these guys play. I cant take 1 game and judge an era or even 1 player. I have a video on 9mm that has me making my 1st 10 3pt shots. I also have a VHS video of me (over 10 yrs later) going 6-28 from the floor in a game. If you watch the 1st film you would think I was Reggie Miller or Dejaun Wagner. If you see the 2nd you would think well I SUCK....

[Harmless]

Was watching the 65 Finals last night.

1. They play playground ball with no set plays, screens or picks.

^^^^
I guess this one is the main point of contention. Today, even when you're tired, even when you're at your absolute worst, you just don't play playground basketball, especially in a FINALS GAME.

[penbeast0]

Got home late and flipped on the finals. First thing I see is Leon Power dribbling through the lakers for an uncontested layup while everyone just stands around . . . made me look for the trick video that makes everyone look slower, lazier, and like they don't play any defense . . . couldn't believe it was that uncontested . . . not even good playground basketball (of course that was an isolated moment; very similar to that opening PG drive in the video)

[Wade3Iverson]

Was watching the 65 Finals last night.

1. They play playground ball with no set plays, screens or picks.

2. Jerry West looks 6'6" and he either has 4% body fat or hes lifting weights. Theres no doubt that West is better than anyone on the floor.

3. Russell has already lost a step and is slowing down. He looks less like Deke and more like Ben Wallace. The big thing about Russell is that he alwasy seem to get the key rebound or block or hit the hook shot in the clutch moments. Whenever the Lakers look like they are about to take over Russell steps up.

..........................

Good post and nice feedback. Damn I missed it....wanted to see it:(

[Harmless]

Got home late and flipped on the finals. First thing I see is Leon Power dribbling through the lakers for an uncontested layup while everyone just stands around . . . made me look for the trick video that makes everyone look slower, lazier, and like they don't play any defense . . . couldn't believe it was that uncontested . . . not even good playground basketball (of course that was an isolated moment; very similar to that opening PG drive in the video)

Of course there will be moments where one team catches the other off guard. In fact, I remember the turning point in a Finals game between the Bulls and the Suns where Jordan just went coast to coast for an uncontested layup. That was a VERY sloppy moment too.

But I got the impression from Warspite that in the 65 Finals game he saw, they played playground basketball for much of the game.

As you said, that was an isolated moment. Personally, a lot of the videos from the 60's I saw played terrible defense.

[wigglestrue]

p.s., I love the regulars on this board. You guys are awesome. Really.