If Kobe Wins a Title this Year Where Does He Rank All Time?

[Minge]

Top 25 All-Time

01 Michael Jordan
10x All-NBA First Team, 5x MVP, 9x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
14x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion, 6x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest SG of All-Time
02 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10x All-NBA First Team, 6x MVP, 5x All-Defense First Team
19x All-Star, 6x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest C of All-Time
03 Magic Johnson
9x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP
12x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 5x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest PG of All-Time
04 Larry Bird
9x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP
12x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 3x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest SF of All-Time
05 Tim Duncan*
9x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP, 8x All-Defense First Team
10x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
Comment: Greatest PF of All-Time
06 Wilt Chamberlain
7x All-NBA First Team, 4x MVP, 2x All-Defense First Team
13x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
07 Bill Russell
3x All-NBA First Team, 5x MVP, 1x All-Defense First Team
12x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 11x World Champion
08 Hakeem Olajuwon
6x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 5x All-Defense First Team, 2x DPOY
12x All-Star, 2x World Champion, 2x Finals MVP
09 Shaquille O'Neal*
8x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
14x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion, 3x Finals MVP
10 Oscar Robertson
9x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
12x All-Star, 3x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
11 Moses Malone
4x All-NBA First Team, 3x MVP, 1x All-Defense First Team
11x All-Star, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
12 Kobe Bryant*
6x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 6x All-Defense First Team
10x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 3x World Champion
13 Jerry West
10x All-NBA First Team, 4x All-Defense First Team
14x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
14 Karl Malone
11x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP, 3x All-Defense First Team
14x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP
15 Julius Erving
5x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP (4x ABA First Team, 3x ABA MVP)
11x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
16 John Havlicek
4x All-NBA First Team, 5x All-Defense First Team
13x All-Star, 8x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
17 Bob Cousy
10x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
13x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion
18 Bob Pettit
10x All-NBA First Team, 2x MVP
11x All-Star, 4x All-Star MVP, 1x World Champion
19 Scottie Pippen
3x All-NBA First Team, 8x All-Defense First Team
7x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 6x World Champion
20 George Mikan
5x All-NBA First Team
4x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP, 4x World Champion
21 David Robinson
4x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 4x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
10x All-Star, 2x World Champion
22 Elgin Baylor
10x All-NBA First Team
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
23 Isiah Thomas
3x All-NBA First Team
12x All-Star, 2x All-Star MVP, 2x World Champion, 1x Finals MVP
24 Kevin Garnett*
4x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP, 7x All-Defense First Team, 1x DPOY
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP
25 Charles Barkley
5x All-NBA First Team, 1x MVP
11x All-Star, 1x All-Star MVP

"*" Denotes an active NBA player (opportunity to move up/down list)

[HarlemHeat37]

Timmy's way too high on your list..no way he should be ahead of Wilt or Russell..

David Robinson's way too low too IMO..

[Minge]

Timmy's way too high on your list..no way he should be ahead of Wilt or Russell..

David Robinson's way too low too IMO..

Your complaints are the position of the Spurs players? I didn't include Gervin in my Top 25.
My notables were:
Garnett above Barkley: Defense
Mikan above Robinson: Dominance at same position +Championships
Havlicek above Cousy/Pettit: Won twice without Russell
Bryant above West: Championships
Olajuwon over O'Neal: Defense +Championship '95
Chamberlain over Russell: All-NBA First Team nominations
Jordan, Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Duncan: Top 5, they redefined (Greatest at) their position

Most of it, I examed their resumes and ordered accordingly.
That played a big role in placing Duncan above O'Neal, Russell and Chamberlain

If Kevin Garnett wins a championship this year, I swap 24 Garnett and 14 Karl Malone (+10). If Kobe Bryant wins a championship this year, I move 12 Bryant above 10 Oscar Robertson (+2).

[Warspite]

[quote="Minge"][/quote]

Of course your going to have WIlt 6th if you dont include hie 1972 Lakers title and his other accolades. Im begining to wonder if you just make up the resumes or if they are facts. Many of them look ok but Ill bet I can find enough errors. The 1 title for Wilt just stuck out.

As far as TD vs Wilt. Is that with Wilt only useing his left or his right? I truely wonder how long it will be before OJ MAyo is the GOAT an dKoeb is the old timer that played with the peach baskets.

[Wile E. Coyote]

I agree. Wilt and Russell are ahead of Duncan on the all-time list. Timmy and Shaq are right next to each other on the list.

Kobe will probably be right there with them if he wins the title this year. If he wins it next year, he'll jump over, IMO.

[KNICKS1970]

Wilt has less titles than everyone who gets talked about as the GOAT, but you have to rank him at the very least in the Top 3, because he was such an overwhelming force in his time and there's no reason to think that he wouldn't be able to dominate in any era because of how great an athlete he was. Wilt would pretty much unquestionably go #1 in an All-Time Fantasy Draft, and while that's not the only criteria to look at, it's definitely a factor.

[penbeast0]

Actually he went #2 in the one we are currently running on this board, lol . . . to Mikey.

[DrunkOnMystery]

I don't think winning a title this year really moves Kobe all that much. I still see him in a deadlock with Havlicek for 13th.

[skillz23]

I agree. Wilt and Russell are ahead of Duncan on the all-time list. Timmy and Shaq are right next to each other on the list.

Kobe will probably be right there with them if he wins the title this year. If he wins it next year, he'll jump over, IMO.

I certainly don't see that happening just because they win. If they win, he might move up a spot or two. However, if they lose with THAT TEAM, he should drop down a few spots. Easily the most talented team in the league. Hell, I think they could have made the playoffs without Kobe had Gasol/Bynum/Odom been healthy. Gasol had a bunch of roleplayers next to him and managed to make playoffs 2 years in a row.

[jaypo]

"You can't put Shaq ahead of the Dream. You just can't. Not if you factor in DEFENSE and what Hakeem did to the Shaq in the finals with a worse supporting cast. Shaq was utterly dominate at his peak but he needed an elite closer to get it done due to his defensive/freethrow liabilities."

What he did to Shaq in the finals? Actually, I covered this on another thread a few weeks ago. Their stats were virtually identical. The difference was the "inferior supporting cast". Akeem's delivered, and Shaq's didn't. Remember Nick Anderson? 4 free throws to ice the game, and he missed all 4, allowing Kenny Smith and Horry to hit big 3's to send the game into OT, allowing Houston to take a 1-0 lead that Orlando never recovered from. So the argument about Akeem dominating Shaq in those finals does not hold water. Add to that the fact that Shaq was doubled for most of the series but Akeem wasn't, and that adds to it.

Kobe will not crack the top 10 unless he delivers multiple 'chips as the main option. If not, then Horry would deserve a spot on that list, right? Shaq and Duncan have pretty similar accolades. Each have 4 titles, 3 of which they were the 1st option on the team and 3 finals MVP's, and one that another player (Wade and Parker) took the MVP. But in both cases, the rules had changed allowing fronting, doubling, tripling, and other gimick defenses that made dominant post players a little less effective. This allowed Wade and Parker to get to the hoop easier. To pass either one of those 2, Kobe would have to do something similar as the leader of his team. Since he just laid an egg in his 1st finals appearance as the team leader, he needs to be knocked down a few places.

MJ
Russell
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Akeem
Oscar

Side note: I find it funny that everyone claims that Shaq had to have an elite guard to be effective because he was such a liability without one and that he was only good because he had Kobe, Wade, and Penny, but no one harps on the fact that Magic had KAJ, Worthy, Cooper, etc., and Bird had McHale, Parish, Johnson, etc. West had Wilt (and Wilt had West), KAJ had Oscar, MJ had Pippen (another top 50 of all time), Russell had about 1/4 of the top 50 of all time, Duncan had Robinson (top 50) plus an assortmant of good role players and solid players (manu, Parker, Elliot, Horry), and Akeem played with Clyde the glide, Kenny the Jet (who holds a finals record for most 3's in a finals series), and Barkley. What about the careers of those players post Shaq and the teams post Shaq? Penny couldn't carry the team. Wade, well, we'll have to see. I see him as a great player, but I don't see him carrying the Heat to another title without some major help. And Kobe, well they just made it out of the 1st round after how many years? And how'd they do in the finals? Maybe having Shaq there to make the game a whole lot easier actually made those guys better. How about that point of view?

[fanofthegreats]

^

Well I don't think you can downplay Kobe's postseason that much, I mean he was still the best playoff performer from start till finish (overall) and led his team to the finals when he got a good supporting cast.

I think that is indicative of what he can do as a leader, and will surely retire top ten all-time. BTW noone is denying Shaq's dominance, I fully admit he was the main cog on the Laker title teams.. But I will say that life was definitely made easier for him by having another #1 option at hsi side, just like it benefitted Kobe.

[jaypo]

I agree with you. That was directed at those that say that Shaq was only as dominant because he had Penny, Kobe, and Wade. I think that Kobe and Shaq together could have remained one of the greatest dynasties of all time. But their differences (and egos) ruined that. I agree that Kobe is probably one of the greatest to play the game based on talent and desire to win. But my problem with him is that his desire to be "the man" has torn apart a dynasty. He put his own need to be # 1 above his desire to win by becoming the # 1 instead of the #1a.

[HarlemHeat37]

fanofthegreats- so if Kobe doesn't win a title with a healthy Bynum, Gasol and Odom(or whoever replaces him), then you would still rank him in your top 10 at the end of his career?..

I think a lot of people forget how dominant Shaq was..his 1999-2000 was one of the most dominant years in NBA history..

[Farm Raid]

"Shaq and Duncan have pretty similar accolades. Each have 4 titles, 3 of which they were the 1st option on the team and 3 finals MVP's, and one that another player (Wade and Parker) took the MVP.

I wouldn't say Duncan was the second option, even if he didn't win the Finals MVP.

Kenny the Jet (who holds a finals record for most 3's in a finals series)

Not anymore.

[A.J.]

I guess we are going to have to wait next year.

[TrueLAfan]

Yes, I did a study which--unfortunately--has been swallowed up by RealGM. Basically, it comes down to the Indiana Jones hypothesis..."It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage." I tweaked the study a little over time, making adjustments as things popped up/occurred to me, but everything basically showed that the players begins a decline at about 36-38,000 regular seasons minutes or a combined 41,000-43,000 regular season/playoff minutes. This is a lot of court time, much more than you might think. (Less than 50 people in NBA history have played 36,000 regular season minutes.) Keep in mind that the majority who are able play this much are elite players...something like 70% are in the HOF or will go in immediately when eligible.

The decline I'm talking about is in value, too. Most players begin a physical decline before they hit the mid-30,000s in regular season minutes. But the truly great players--and this includes Kobe--are able to adjust to the decline for a while with smarter play. I think Kobe's got another two, maybe even three seasons, at or near his peak.

Getting back to the topic...The tendency is to give Kobe too much credit when things go well--the blatant nuthuggers are loud about this--and then to ding him too much when his teams don't do all that well--a certain number of people just hate Kobe, regardless of what actually happens on a basketball court.

This thread is pretty typical. Where will Kobe rank if he leads the team to the title? Kinda looks silly now, doesn't it? Kobe Bryant is one of the top 20 players of all time. But there's a logjam of players between 7 and about 15....great players. Players like Oscar, Duncan, West, Dr. J, Hakeem, Shaq, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, and Robinson. I don't put Kobe over any of those players yet. His MVP this year moved up to around 16. (He and Garnett are in a dead heat right now, as far as I can see.) A title might have lifted him a spot or two. Maybe. The issue isn't Kobe, who is (obviously) a great player. It's the level of competition.

Could Kobe move up? Sure. Will he move up? We'll find out in the next few years.

Is it likely he'll move up? I'm not even going to try and answer that...too many people who have unnaturally strong feelings about this. I'll say this. If Kobe didn't move up, he'd be one of the 20 greatest players of all time; close to top 15. That should be enough for any reasonable player...or fan.

[daddyfivestar]

Finally, I've located the source. Had this topic not been created LA would've won the title. You're the jinx. It's on you SDC!

[Fencer reregistered]

I understand why people would put a center who didn't excel at defense as a top-10 member, but I don't agree. Shaq shouldn't be in the top 10.

In particular, he shouldn't be close to Hakeem, let alone above him.

For me, there's an elite 9 in some order:

4 centers -- Russell, Hakeem, Jabbar, and Wilt, probably in that order
1 forward -- Bird
4 guards -- Jordan, Magic, West, Big O, probably in that order

My closest runners-up are Moses and Duncan. Emphatically NOT on the list are Shaq (not enough defense for a center), Karl Malone (a choker, a few big-time games notwithstanding), Baylor (surely a huge choker, given that West was clutch and the Lakers weren't), or Kobe (toxic personality, except on a team so full of talent he can bring himself to treat people well). Erving, Pippen, and Hondo don't quite make it. LBJ hasn't made it yet, but I expect that he will soon; despite his horrific lack of mid-range shooting, I already see him as a peer of Kobe and Erving because of his passing and (still much underrated IMO) defense, as well as of course the rest of his scoring. The current young player I'm second-most confident of making it is Chris Paul; being a legitimate MVP candidate that young says a LOT about the guy.

All except Wilt were guys you'd call Clutch and/or Winners, in capital letters.

All were transcendent on offense, except Russell, who was transcendent on defense and competent at offense.

The centers all excelled at defense. The guards all excelled at offense. Every one of them excelled at rebounding.

I don't know how Big O was at defense, but all the others were good (yes, including Bird, who had a couple 2nd-team All-Defense selections).