Kobe-KG..

[eatyourchildren]

No one is saying you're denigrating Garnett because you like PP or Allen, you're doing it to make Kobe look much better in this comparison. You've been caught applying doublestandards like 5 times in this thread, let it go.

Keep pounding on the Kobe bias when I haven't brought him up in the argument (in fact, why don't you tell me what my analysis of this Kobe/KG thing is--can you dredge up even a quote? Do I think it's close? Do I think it's not close?), and keep failing to prove that KG is the OVERWHELMING leader of his celtics squad.

Rule 1 of arguing: you don't have to objective in order to provide a compelling case. This is advocacy. Even with my Big 3 'hatred', I can see that KG isn't the OVERWHELMING leader of his squad. If I hated PP/Allen more than KG, why would I even argue that they've provided more than you're all willing to credit them for? It'd be one thing if I loved PP/Allen and hated KG. Then maybe you'd say that I'd be swayed at the fringes. But this is not even at the margin, and in addition my dislike of PP/Allen would also serve to temper whatever "bias" I have against KG.

The most compelling argument (and that's not saying much) that's come out of this group is that KG's stats have been similar to Duncan's, and as a correlation they are both equally the OVERWHELMING leaders of their squads. Do I really even need to argue that? Duncan is the gold standard of what an OVERWHELMING leader is. You tell me how close KG is to that. Being the OVERWHELMING leader (remember, I didn't coin this phrase, your buddy wiggles did) means that you are the alpha and the omega of the team. MJ was. Duncan was. Shaq, in the supermajority of the time, was. KG? Anybody? No1 has as of yet been able to even give me a breakdown of the %share of responsibility that KG-Pierce-Allen have (bracketing aside the other guys). You'd be better give KG at least 20% over the next dude if you want to convince me that he's the OVERWHELMING leader.

Me disliking the Big 3 colors my views as to who gets what share of the leadership partnership that they run? Pray tell, what logical concept informs this?

[Farm Raid]

[eatyourchildren]

:rofl:

You can't even muster up a % breakdown. Can any of you?

[Farm Raid]

You've been argumentative in the face of facts for the last two pages, why would some subjective breakdown of the percentage of team carrying done by each player shut you up? You've already made enough of a fool out of yourself in this thread, don't you think?

[eatyourchildren]

You've been argumentative in the face of facts for the last two pages, why would some subjective breakdown of the percentage of team carrying done by each player shut you up? You've already made enough of a fool out of yourself in this thread, don't you think?

I'm glad that some statistical analysis of KG through the years is prima facie evidence of his "overwhelming" leadership and separation from his next best 2 guys, especially as it applies to one of the most balanced trio's of the past 10 years, even though his only other success in the playoffs was, guess what, with another set of guard/swing that masked his well-documented weaknesses, aside from which KG has had no similar successes in a 12 year career. Go facts!

Keep telling yourself that KG was overwhelmingly better than Pierce and Allen and overwhelmingly more responsible for that team's success than the other guys. The same Pierce that his own fans (and not a hater like me) are saying is arguably a top 10 player and top 3 swing in the league. The same Allen who is one of the most prolific and efficient shooters of all time. KG is so head and shoulders above those two guys combined its overwhelming.

[drza]

Let me switch gears a bit and bring it back to the topic. KG and Kobe are in some ways difficult to compare because they haven't played similar roles on teams of similar caliber for much of their career. It's obviously ridiculous to compare the team success of Kobe with Shaq to KG at any point in their careers. Similarly, there have been no times in Kobe's career with a situation nearly as bad as KG's the last few years in Minny. But I'd say there are 4 seasons where good comparisons can be made.

1 - 3) 3 year stretches with each as the main option on teams with poor supporting casts. Kobe's 2004-07 Lakers were pretty similar in terms of overall talent to KG's 2000-2003 Timberwolves. They both had less-than-ideal second options over the entire 3 year stretch (Odom probably slightly better than Wally). They each had 1 year in that stretch with a solid third option (KG with Terrell Brandon in '01, Kobe with Caron Butler in '05). And the Western Conference was similarly tough. Kobe's teams in that stretch averaged 40 wins/year, got put out of the playoffs in the 1st round twice and missed the playoffs outright once. KG's teams in those 3 years averaged 49 wins/year and made the playoffs each year before getting ousted in the 1st round.

4) 2008. Once Gasol got traded to the Lakers, their overall talent level was very similar to the Celtics. All of the pre-Finals analysts pointed that out, which was why so many picked Kobe as the difference maker in the series.

So in the times when their supporting casts were similar, KG's teams have generally outproduced Kobe's. It's far from a "proof-positive" argument, but it does give a way to compare the two at least somewhat analytically. At the very least it's an interesting data point.