Gary Payton vs John Stockton

[TrueLAfan]

^^But, including that Payton has a DPOY and Stockton doesn't seems like it may have an impact on who was greater in their prime.

No. There isn't an OPOY to balance it out. All-NBA and MVP voting take into account play on both sides of the ball. I stick with that.

And tsherkin...man, I just added 'em up from basketball-reference. I'm just bored enough to get stuff like that done.

[tsherkin]

What, they list that? All I saw was MVP vote rankings...

EDIT: Oops, I am blind. Awesome.

[Malinhion]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've seen it before.

[RapsGM]

Stockton. Just go check out his stats and you'll see why I choose him.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Neither of the two was good enough to lead a team to the title, so it depends on what kind of teammates you want to put next to them.

[Hunter]

I think Stockton was great, but one of the more overrated players of the past 30 years. Largely due to the way people think of the pg position.

There is this notion that Stockton somehow epitomized what a pg should be. That he played the game the way it was meant to be played. It's this kind of romanticized cookie cutter philosophy based off of what? College hoops from the 50's? Seriously, why is everybody so enamored with this idea of a "pass first pg"? Certainly you don't want a shoot 1st, shoot 2nd and shoot 3rd pg, but how many pg's in that classic "pass first" mold have won rings in the past 30 years? And how many of them were considered more than role players? How many rings does Stockton have?

I'll take the Isiahs and Paytons over Stockton. Give me Chris Paul or Deron Williams. It's really a bit of an oddity the way Stockton is lifted up on this pedestal for the way he played. Do you look at Chris Paul and go "Damn, he could be as good as Stockton if he'd be less of an individual force offensively"? Of course you don't. And yet we praise Stockton for being exactly that. I just don't get it.

Being able to make players better is all good and well, and it wins you a lot of regular season games...but when it comes down to it I still want that guy that can individually dominate. That guy that can strap a team on his back and say "I'm taking you with me" and drag them across the finish line whether they deserve to be there or not. And I'll gladly trade a few assists for a guy that can do that.

I've said this many a time during my time at RGM, but if there were a lifetime achievement award for longevity and excellence I'd give it to Stockton. He was a hell of a player, and I"m not claiming otherwise. But his impact gets romanticized or distorted in a historical sense due to his style of play and longevity (and the records that encompasses) and preconceived notions about what that implies. Great player. Just not as great as retrospective commentary would seem to dictate.

[Scatocephalus]

Something to consider. Which player would other NBA players want to play with? Over the years I heard a lot of players talk about Stockton and how they would either love to play with him or have a PG like him on their team. I remember Barkley saying it several times. I honestly can't say that I heard likewise about Payton.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

^^^^^
That's great, but it doesn't mean the team would be better with Stockton

[tsherkin]

Do you look at Chris Paul and go "Damn, he could be as good as Stockton if he'd be less of an individual force offensively"? Of course you don't. And yet we praise Stockton for being exactly that. I just don't get it.

Actually, FWIW, I would look at both Deron Williams and Chris Paul (especially Deron) as pass-first PGs.

Paul only took about 16 shots a game across about 38 mpg of playing time. He took 15.5 FGA36 last year, which is a lot lower than Stockton's career-high, sure, but Paul (like Deron) emphasized the pick-and-roll, getting into the lane for the penetrate-and-pitch and otherwise looking around for passing opportunities. The "Big Easy," as JA Adande calls it, the alley-oop play with Tyson Chandler, was just as big for Paul as the pick-and-roll between Deron and Boozer.

Both are pretty much classic point guards, Stockton looked to penetrate where he could as well, be it off entry from the high sidescreen or one-on-one with his man, the only difference is that he's a lot more athletic than Stockton was even in his physical prime and is more capable of getting past his defender... and the rules favor Paul's style of play now.

Still, you'd be a fool to ignore that Paul lead the LEAGUE in AST% and raw APG (as well as STL% and SPG) and that he was the clear primary playmaker... and an exceedingly unselfish one, at that. Stockton's FGA/g were generally low because Malone was taking 18-20 FGA/g but there's no one THAT good on New Orleans (I mean as a scorer), so he shoots a little more.

Magic had a couple seasons around 15, 16 FGA/g too, about 14 seasons between 14-16 FGA36 and he's as pure a point guard as you're ever likely to find in the annals of NBA history.

[Hunter]

^I think you misunderstand my argument (perhaps I wasn't as clear as I meant to be). It's not about averages, it's about impact. It's about being able to take over a game and individually dominate.

Let me try and explain it another way.

AI is a guy who only plays at one speed; he's always in attack mode and looking to score. At times he may look to facilitate a bit more or score a bit more but by and large he always plays the same way. That is what separates a guy like Isiah from Iverson; Zeke was able to pick and choose his spots and give his team what it needed. Or if you prefer it's like Kobe learning to facilitate early and get everybody else involved, and then assert himself later.

To me Stockton is a bit like AI, not in style of play but in terms of consistency; he always went the same speed, played the same way. He might look to score a bit more at times, but essentially he's the same guy in the 1st quarter that he is in the 4th. Where I think guys like Isiah, Paul, Magic etc have the advantage is their ability to individually dominate at times. They could be playmakers, but could also get it done themselves when they needed to. I'll say it again; it's not about averages, it's about impact. And sometimes it not what you do, but when you do it.

To put it succinctly Stockton wasn't a closer. Payton could be. Plus GP obviously had the defensive edge, despite the fact Stockton was a very good defender himself.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'm agreeing with Hunter here, I think Stockton has been raised to a much higher status than he was originally regarded in when he was actually playing. Payton seemed to impact games on a much larger scale to me, and I'm going with GP here.

[Turisas]

Hunter is raising a good point here. I'm going with Payton here because of his big defensive edge.

[tsherkin]

To me Stockton is a bit like AI, not in style of play but in terms of consistency; he always went the same speed, played the same way. He might look to score a bit more at times, but essentially he's the same guy in the 1st quarter that he is in the 4th. Where I think guys like Isiah, Paul, Magic etc have the advantage is their ability to individually dominate at times. They could be playmakers, but could also get it done themselves when they needed to. I'll say it again; it's not about averages, it's about impact. And sometimes it not what you do, but when you do it.

Sure, yeah. This all makes a lot of sense. Stockton was only ever "dominant" in the sense that you knew what he was capable of doing no matter what defense you threw at him but he wouldn't ever really pop off as a scorer and that was actually a critical flaw on the Finals teams Utah fielded at the end of the 90s; Hornacek choked, Stockton couldn't step up his scoring and Malone was basically all alone.

That's a definite flaw that someone like Zeke (who, IIRC, set the single-season APG record before Magic and then Stockton both busted it).

To put it succinctly Stockton wasn't a closer. Payton could be. Plus GP obviously had the defensive edge, despite the fact Stockton was a very good defender himself.

Yep, that's fair.

The whole point of my post wasn't actually to disagree with you. My little rant about Paul and such was more general, designed to point out that Paul and Deron actually are pretty classic pass-first point guards even if they do have the ability to step up their scoring output in key moments.

[A.J.]

Stockton. Great assist man, and deadly starting the pick and roll.

[Bgil]

Sure, yeah. This all makes a lot of sense. Stockton was only ever "dominant" in the sense that you knew what he was capable of doing no matter what defense you threw at him but he wouldn't ever really pop off as a scorer and that was actually a critical flaw on the Finals teams Utah fielded at the end of the 90s; Hornacek choked, Stockton couldn't step up his scoring and Malone was basically all alone.

You could make the same case against Paul this postseason. Once Peja was taken out o the series Paul was fairly ineffective against the Spurs. Payton had a similar problem. Don't forget that outside of the year they made the finals they were chronically disappointing. Remember when they got bumped out of the first round by the 8th seed?

[tsherkin]

That was my point, Bgil; I was comparing Paul to Stockton in a favorable fashion. Paul is an excellent repetitive-play distribution artist but he's more athletic and a more dangerous scorer when he is called upon to act in that capacity (which is more often than Stockton, of course).

I know you're mentioning the Denver series there but let's not forget that it was mostly Kemp who choked in that series (Payton at the line, certainly, but he still shot over 49% FG while Kemp shot about 37%). And he was a 4th year player at that point, he hadn't established himself as an especially significant scoring weapon to that point in his career, he grew into that role. That makes the use of that particular series somewhat questionable in this case.