Dr. J vs Kobe Bryant

[jeahwe]

To amplify... I don't understand how anyone can look at a guy with three titles and six finals appearances during an 11 year period where he averaged 26-9-5 with 2 blocks and 2 steals on 51% shooting and ask, “Well, was he a great clutch player? When?” That question defies logic in every way, shape, and form. Again, it would be impossible for Dr. J [i]not[/iI to have had great play—lots and lots and lots of great play—and end up at that level of production and respect.

I'm not saying Dr J not have great plays in playoffs (This discussion wouldn't even started if I'm not thinking that Erving could be compare in this area with Bryant). I'm simply saying that Kobe has more and was better in that.
BTW, since when normal stats from some period of time - for example 11 years, like you do - show who was more clutch? Or team result (Especially when Dr J had teammates who could - and in fact often do - make clutch plays: Toney, Bobby Jones and Collins)? For example was Shaq more clutch than Kobe? That's why if you want prove anything you need to show things we talking about (That's logic. Illogical is talking about X - for example normal stats, awards, etc - when discussion is about Y - clutch), in this case Erving's clutch games (stats or awards could be misleading, see example with Shaq). I show Kobe's.

And again, you don't answer direct questions.

Basically, what he wants is for you to list every single Dr. J big shot or free throw or play in the playoffs. What he fails to understand is that Kobe is perhaps the only player in history who has legions of fans

No, he's second to Jordan in that :>

[tkb]

I don't think there is much doubt that Dr J has had his share of clutch moments when you look at his career as a whole. He was a great, great player.

Personally I believe Kobe is a better player, but I can respect someone's opinion if they think J was better. I just don't.

[TrueLAfan]

I don't think there is much doubt that Dr J has had his share of clutch moments when you look at his career as a whole. He was a great, great player.

Personally I believe Kobe is a better player, but I can respect someone's opinion if they think J was better. I just don't.

Totally understandable and reasonable.

I'm not saying Dr J not have great plays in playoffs (This discussion wouldn't even started if I'm not thinking that Erving could be compare in this area with Bryant). I'm simply saying that Kobe has more and was better in that.

...and yet ended up with slightly lower postseason numbers. So he also had more "unclutch" moments? What happened? How can Dr. J have been more productive on more successful teams in the postseason and not be more clutch? Use some common sense, man!

BTW, since when normal stats from some period of time - for example 11 years, like you do - show who was more clutch? Or team result (Especially when Dr J had teammates who could - and in fact often do - make clutch plays: Toney, Bobby Jones and Collins)? For example was Shaq more clutch than Kobe? That's why if you want prove anything you need to show things we talking about (That's logic. Illogical is talking about X - for example normal stats, awards, etc - when discussion is about Y - clutch), in this case Erving's clutch games (stats or awards could be misleading, see example with Shaq). I show Kobe's.

And again, you don't answer direct questions.

Ludicrous. “Clutch” is a term that you are using in a vague way (making 4 out of 4 free throws in the fourth quarter is “clutch?”)...and now you are trying to bring in “clutch” play of others. It's why,a s I said, “clutch” is a term that should only be used on rare occasions...certianly not for Kobe Bryant, who on the whole, has been less productive in the playoffs than in the regular season and was somewhat less productive than Julius Erving in postseason play. I simply stick to playoff performance...every game in the playoffs requires “clutch” play.

Dr. J has better postseason numbers on teams that did better in the playoffs than Kobe's teams. He was at that level for a longer period. His teams never missed the playoffs. Again:

Code: Select all

Kobe 00-08   MPG    PPG   RPG  APG   FG%   FT%
Season       39.8   28.3  5.9  5.3  .455  .843
Playoffs     42.6   27.1  5.5  5.2  .448  .801

Dr. J 72-82   MPG    PPG   RPG  APG   FG%   FT%
Season        37.6   25.9  9.6  4.5  .509  .779
Playoffs      39.8   26.4  9.3  4.7  .509  .783


So...better numbers. Better play.
Better play for a longer time.
Better postseason play relative to regular season play

I'm just repeating myself here. If you honestly don't get it...and it means you've gone from “When did Julius Erving have clutch moments?” to saying “His outstanding play is not as directly responsible for the excellence of his team's play in the postseason as it should be,” then I'm just not going to waste my time. I don't know if it's a language barrier or you being dropped on your head as a child or whatever, but it's not worth wasting the space on you.

[tkb]

I don't think this correlates to this discussion since I believe Dr J had many clutch moments, but it is possible to put up big stat lines without being a great closer of the game statistically. Kevin Garnett is one example (personally I think his "disappearing acts" are a bit overrated since he still plays terrific defense down the line, but he can disappear offensively at times).

[jeahwe]

...and yet ended up with slightly lower postseason numbers. So he also had more "unclutch" moments? What happened? How can Dr. J have been more productive on more successful teams in the postseason and not be more clutch? Use some common sense, man!

Shaq has MVPs, team results, stats, but was he more clutch than Kobe?
It seems that for you clutch play = good play in whole game. Ok, you have right to define that way, but term “clutch” isn't usually used in that way. It's possible to be good playoff performer and not great closer. Player X could have great game during first three q, but at the end of 4th miss all 4 FTs and his team loose - he definitely wouldn't be called clutch. That's how it's work. And that's why your argument with stats isn't good in this discussion (unless you have stats like this from 82games.com - they define clutch very clear and have complete data for Kobe from last years).

And again you don't answer to questions about 2-0 in 1977, Dawkins statement in his book and 1984.

[shawngoat23]

I don't know if it's a language barrier or you being dropped on your head as a child or whatever, but it's not worth wasting the space on you.

Ouch. I shouldn't laugh, but that was some sick burn from one of the most mild-mannered moderators on the board.

[jeahwe]

If someone says things like that it only shows that he don't have any rational arguments so he starts personal attacks.

[HarlemHeat37]

being "clutch" and being a "closer" aren't the same..if a guy makes the right play defensively, gets a good hockey assist, gets a rebound in a battle vs. others..that will go unnoticed most of the time..but it's still considered "clutch"..a "closer" will get more of the attention, because he's taking and making the shots..

clutch play=good play in the whole game isn't applicable here, because he's talking about the playoffs.."clutch play" in the playoffs can easily qualify as the entire game, because everything is magnified..you're playing the same team in a best of 7 series, where every play matters..why do you think players legacies are mostly based on the playoffs? because that's when you're considered "clutch"..Dirk Nowitzki has made his fair share of clutch shots, and has even had big playoff games..but he had 2 bad series in the playoffs, and now he's looked at as a choker..David Robinson got **** on by Hakeem, and he's been looked at as a choker..Karl Malone hasn't performed as well in the playoffs, but he's looked at(by a lot of people, not all) as a choker at times..

playoffs define players as "clutch"..

if a guy is gonna score 40 points in a playoff game, but miss the last 4 free throws, I would still call him clutch..I would just say he isn't a "closer"..

I don't see how Shaq wouldn't qualify as "clutch"..the guy has ALWAYS stepped his game up in the playoffs, and he's had some monster games when his team needed him..if "clutch" means you make a shot when your team "needs" you to make a shot, why isn't it considered "clutch" if they "need" you to have a big game?..

[JordansBulls]

The difference between these two guys is like the difference between Hakeem and Shaq or West and Oscar. Each of them have a case.