KG vs Duncan

[tha_rock220]

Yeah, the 4 times they've played since Shaq stopped being Shaq would really skew their averages that much. Duncan averaged more rebounds and assists and fewer turnovers. Shaq more point, higher efficiency, and more blocks.

Hmmm, I guess we can make the KG argument about the times Duncan has beat Shaq in the playoffs as well. Duncan was by far the worse player, but he just had the better team.

Maybe all of Timmy's titles, MVP's, !st team awards, etc should be taken away and given to Shaq, KG, and other players because he was on a good team.

Actually they've played about 7 times- and that's not counting Shaq with the Heat and his last year with the Lakers- where he got less touches and less shots.

Don't know where you are getting the last two paragraphs from- I'd rather have Duncan on my team than Garnett; just don't believe that they are on completely different levels, the way say, Prime Shaq was on a different level than both of them.

Has anyone honestly said that Duncan was a far worse player or even a worse player? Stop exaggerating.

Last I checked, Shaq was still an MVP candidate his 1st year in Miami.

[bballcool34]

Yeah, the 4 times they've played since Shaq stopped being Shaq would really skew their averages that much. Duncan averaged more rebounds and assists and fewer turnovers. Shaq more point, higher efficiency, and more blocks.

Hmmm, I guess we can make the KG argument about the times Duncan has beat Shaq in the playoffs as well. Duncan was by far the worse player, but he just had the better team.

Maybe all of Timmy's titles, MVP's, !st team awards, etc should be taken away and given to Shaq, KG, and other players because he was on a good team.

Actually they've played about 7 times- and that's not counting Shaq with the Heat and his last year with the Lakers- where he got less touches and less shots.

Don't know where you are getting the last two paragraphs from- I'd rather have Duncan on my team than Garnett; just don't believe that they are on completely different levels, the way say, Prime Shaq was on a different level than both of them.

Has anyone honestly said that Duncan was a far worse player or even a worse player? Stop exaggerating.

Last I checked, Shaq was still an MVP candidate his 1st year in Miami.

And Garnett got third in MVP voting this year- doesn't mean that he's as good a player as he was in his prime.

And a Shaq that's not in his prime is still much better than most players in the league- so not sure what you are saying with that comment.

[tha_rock220]

And Garnett got third in MVP voting this year- doesn't mean that he's as good a player as he was in his prime.

And a Shaq that's not in his prime is still much better than most players in the league- so not sure what you are saying with that comment.

.....or he was his usual unstoppable, efficient self, and his minor decline in production was due to a drop in minutes.

This post means nothing anyway. You're comparing a distant 3rd to an incredibly close 2nd.

[bballcool34]

And Garnett got third in MVP voting this year- doesn't mean that he's as good a player as he was in his prime.

And a Shaq that's not in his prime is still much better than most players in the league- so not sure what you are saying with that comment.

.....or he was his usual unstoppable, efficient self, and his minor decline in production was due to a drop in minutes.

This post means nothing anyway. You're comparing a distant 3rd to an incredibly close 2nd.

And in 04-05, he was playing roughly the same minutes in the playoffs as he was in the regular season: but his production went down- less efficient scoring, less points, less rebounds.

Shaq's career playoff averages are rougly equal with his career averages- yet in 04-05, his averages clearly went down in the playoffs compared to his averages that season- it's no big deal if it's just a couple points or so, but he was getting less rebounds, was noticeably slower on the court.

And sure, you can say, that his production went down to due to a loss of minutes- but why couldn't he play as many minutes as before, even in the playoffs?

Because he wasn't in his physical prime anymore- wasn't able to sustain that type of production for as long as he used to be able to- and that's the difference between say a prime Shaq and a Shaq in Miami.

And of course it means something- it means Garnett was still an MVP candidate albeit lower than Shaq was in Miami.

[tha_rock220]

A basketball-reference.com warrior you are. It's a great site, but it doesn't explain the context of its information.

If memory serves Shaq went into the 05 playoffs with an injury that was bad enough to force him to miss the 1st playoff games of his career.

Saying Prime Shaq completely outclassed Duncan is just stupid. The only big men in history who are without question on another level from Duncan are Wilt and Kareem.

[ronnymac2]

A basketball-reference.com warrior you are. It's a great site, but it doesn't explain the context of its information.

If memory serves Shaq went into the 05 playoffs with an injury that was bad enough to force him to miss the 1st playoff games of his career.

Saying Prime Shaq completely outclassed Duncan is just stupid. The only big men in history who are without question on another level from Duncan are Wilt and Kareem.

Not true...When your talking about Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq, nobody's on another level.

This next part isn't to you, btw lol. Just to show Shaq was still dominant into 2006...in those 2006 playoffs he finished off the bulls with a 30-20 game. Then in game 6 of the detroit series, with wade sick, shaq carried the heat to a victory with something like 27-14 (might be 15, i forgot lol), and shotblocking to finish off the pistons. People only remember 2006 as shaq's decline because he wasn't totally dominant in the finals (even though he was constantly doubled with another 7-footer in dirk, tripled, or just fouled by the mavs.) And also because his record string of 20-10 seasons came to an end. But he still played great, and even in those finals, because of the gameplan dallas had, he effected the game a lot, which helped D wade go off.

[bballcool34]

Saying Prime Shaq completely outclassed Duncan is just stupid. The only big men in history who are without question on another level from Duncan are Wilt and Kareem.

The world "level" that I used earlier is probably misleading and incorrect, but I stand by that prime Shaq was better than prime Duncan, and that they didn't cancel each other out as you said earlier-

Shaq was impossible to stop, was a better scorer in his prime, a comparable rebounder head to head, and I feel that outweighs Duncan's advantage defensively- Duncan's the far better help defender, but man to man Shaq gave people just as much trouble, maybe more, because of his height and size.

Bottom line- Shaq could and did slow down Duncan, but not the other way around.

And, yes 2006 Shaq was still a very good player, but because of his inability to play as many minutes he didn't impact the game as much as he did in his best years.

Anyways, what I was getting at, is prime Shaq was clearly better than prime Duncan IMO and by a larger margin than prime Duncan has been greater than Garnett.

A basketball-reference.com warrior you are. It's a great site, but it doesn't explain the context of its information.

If memory serves Shaq went into the 05 playoffs with an injury that was bad enough to force him to miss the 1st playoff games of his career.

Saying Prime Shaq completely outclassed Duncan is just stupid. The only big men in history who are without question on another level from Duncan are Wilt and Kareem.

Just to show Shaq was still dominant into 2006...in those 2006 playoffs he finished off the bulls with a 30-20 game. Then in game 6 of the detroit series, with wade sick, shaq carried the heat to a victory with something like 27-14 (might be 15, i forgot lol), and shotblocking to finish off the pistons. People only remember 2006 as shaq's decline because he wasn't totally dominant in the finals (even though he was constantly doubled with another 7-footer in dirk, tripled, or just fouled by the mavs.) And also because his record string of 20-10 seasons came to an end. But he still played great, and even in those finals, because of the gameplan dallas had, he effected the game a lot, which helped D wade go off.

Shaq was still very good- just not as impactful as prime Shaq for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

And, of course he could still have some monster games.

As an example, McGrady had some very good games in the playoffs against the Jazz this year, he had a great game 6 but I still wouldn't say, that as a whole, T-Mac is currently is as good as he was in Orlando.

Just because a player isn't in his prime doesn't mean he can't still have great games.

[tsherkin]

Just to touch on Shaq...

Prime Shaq definitively outclassed Duncan. He was a comparable to superior rebounder and shot-blocker, close enough defensively in general to be All-Defensive 2nd team and there have been only a precious few players who've approached the level of offensive dominance Shaq displayed in his prime (and really, from his second year in the league through his time with the Lakers).

Shaq scored at efficiencies that were traditionally left to low-attempt players like OId Wilt, to Kareem with his skyhook and to Artis Gilmore... but he did it better than Kareem and he drew fouls at an unprecedented rate. People moaned and complained about Jordan getting 7-8 FTA/g for most of his career (and especially during the two years he averaged 10+) but Shaq was pretty much booked for 10 or 11 FTA/g and he averaged 13 one year. And he deserved pretty much all of them. The pressure he exerted on the opposition frontcourt was immense, his scoring prowess indomitable.

If and when Tim Duncan passes Shaq on any listing, it will be the result of his Kareem-like ease into his late-career years, his excellent vintage even as he moves towards 40. It'll be the result of accumulated legacy in an era during which Shaq is declining, rather than an objective valuation of Duncan next to the primal force of the Diesel at his best. It'll be the years starting now, 08-09, that really define Duncan's career and his place next to the greatest players in NBA history, Shaq among them.