RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28

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RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:57 pm

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. ????

Go!

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:28 pm

PG -- Curry is clearly the best peak, even 5 year prime he probably still has the edge. Frazier would be next in terms of prime for me, he is arguably the greatest defensive PG (Payton is the other ATG PG defender and probably the right choice in terms of consistent defense; Frazier was more like Jordan turning it on at key times and resting at others), his scoring was both efficient and able to take over games, his playmaking was excellent in the Chauncey Billups mode of efficiently running a spread offense rather than dominating the ball. His career is a bit short and Curry has a slight edge to me. I'd pick either over Payton or Kidd despite the greater longevity; superior efficiency, great playoff performances and winner's bias give them the edge.

SG -- Like the PGs, the guy with the best 5 year prime has a very short career (as short as Curry and unlike Curry, his knees left him a shadow of himself for his last few years). That would be Sidney Moncrief, the GOAT defensive 2 and a superefficient, 20ppg scorer on a spread the wealth offense (sensing a theme!). Longevity would favor Clyde Drexler though and they are probably close enough that Drexler should get the edge. Gervin's defense is a problem, Sam Jones isn't quite their level.

SF -- Durant is the highest prime guy left and he's had 10 years in the league, 8 at ATG levels. Probably Pippen next as I didn't think Baylor's team results with Jerry West who I am super high on maximized his team results. Havlicek also has been mentioned but his scoring was inefficient for much of his career and while his motor was GOAT level, I don't think his defense and impact are quite PIppen's level.

PF -- The great PFs are in with Pettit; we are left with the not quite greats such as Hayes, McHale, Webber, Amare, and whatever we do with Dennis Rodman. No one ready to be considered unless I am forgetting something.

C -- The next C that I have is Artis Gilmore, outstanding defensive peaks though Gilmore's was in the ABA (not nearly as impressed by his post merger defense), superefficient but not aggressive scorer, mediocre passer. Similar to a significantly taller but shy Dwight Howard. I don't have Mel Daniels, Willis Reed, or Dave Cowens quite as high.


PICK: Kevin Durant

ALTERNATE: Stephen Curry
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#3 » by twolves97 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:21 pm

Contenders for this spot: Kidd, Payton, Curry, Durant, Drexler, Pippen, Baylor, Gilmore.

Kidd: I'm really considering him here because of drza's post. He's an elite defender and rebounder at his position and obviously an ATG player/passer on the fastbreak. He took the Nets to back to back Finals while leading the team in points, assists, and steals. The big drawback for Kidd is his lack of a pull up jumper. He just never learned how to score off the dribble, except layups/dunks, and that really hurt his teams in the halfcourt. 87% of his 3s were assisted on which clearly shows he wasn't creating his own jumpers. I do value his championship as a valuable starter on the Mavs. He's my next guard after Curry.

Payton: I can't put him here quite yet because of playoff fails particularly the Denver series, but he is really underrated and deserves a mention.

Baylor: Same as Payton. His low efficiency and him taking shots from West docks him even more. 0 rings in a league with 8 teams is hard to get over especially since he was 0-8 in finals.

Drexler: I can't put him over Durant because he has similar longevity but with a lower prime/peak imo.

Durant: I have some bias against him for going to the Warriors so that sways my opinion a little bit. The RAPM numbers really concern me and his efficiency numbers and box score stats are a little inflated especially this year having played with Curry. I watch him play and the eye test tells me this as well. His box score overstates his value.

Pippen: He was the perfect Robin. He is one of the greatest if not the greatest wing defender ever and a great rebounder as well. He was one of the original point forwards his 8 assists per 100 possessions for his career is extremely impressive. He was just the perfect compliment to Michael Jordan. His athleticism allowed him to physically dominate matchups and get some pretty awesome posterizers. I have no doubt he could have been a good number 1 on a team (His Portland teams were good and his one year as the man on the Bulls was great) but I'm not sure if he could win one as the man. This might be a little too early for the greatest number 2 of all time but if not now very soon.

Gilmore: Impressive prime but it feels too early for him but I could change my mind if persuaded tbh I don't know much about him.

Steph Curry is the choice for me here because his 3 year peak 2015-now has been unbelievable. He started a dynasty won multiple MVPs and his impact stats are ridiculous. Top 5 peak all time with 5 seasons of prime that have all been very good. His 2016 season was off the charts amazing and he should have won the ring without the bogus draymond suspension and all the injuries they had including the one to Curry's knee. His last 3 seasons have gone ring, 73 wins, ring. His gravity on the court is ATG. His gravity is probably second to only Shaq and Wilt. I value peak over longevity. My reasoning is would you rather have a guy who was the capability to be an MVP/top5 player in the league and be the best player on champ for 5 years (ie Curry) or someone who can lead you to the playoffs every year and probably can't lead a team to the finals for 12 years (ie someone like Bob Cousy). He is the offensive GOAT he should NOT slip any further no matter how much you value longevity.
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1st Vote: Curry
2nd Vote: Pippen
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#4 » by eminence » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:26 pm

Does anybody have Elgee's old post on Opportunities Created? I think I remember Kidd coming out a lot less favorably in that than in traditional assists.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#5 » by Clyde Frazier » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:06 pm

Anyone have some thoughts on pippen vs drexler?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#6 » by LA Bird » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:08 pm

eminence wrote:Does anybody have Elgee's old post on Opportunities Created? I think I remember Kidd coming out a lot less favorably in that than in traditional assists.

https://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/opportunities-created-oc/
https://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2010-playoff-leaders-oc.pdf

Of those 133 qualifying players, the following had the largest discrepancy between assists and OC’s per 100 possesions (number of OC’s per 100 in parentheses):

Rajon Rondo 6.8 (5.6 OC’s per 100)
Ronny Price 5.8 (1.2 OC’s)
Jason Kidd 4.7 (4.7 OC’s)
Luke Walton 4.0 (4.0 OC’s)
Jamrio Moon 3.9 (0.0 OC’s)

and the following players have the largest discrepancy between OC’s and assists (meaning they create more than assists would suggest):

Brandon Roy 5.3 (8.7 OC’s)
Nowitzki 4.0 (8.3 OC’s)
Ginobili 3.3 (12.4 OC’s)
Westbrook 2.8 (11.7 OC’s)
Reddick 2.4 (6.3 OC’s)
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#7 » by pandrade83 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:15 pm

My Top 2 Point Guards left: Steph/Payton
My Top 2 wing/forwards left: Durant/Pippen
My Top 2 Centers left: Artis/Dwight - as much as I hate watching the guy, he probably is next up of the Centers.

Kevin Durant is great and getting him in sooner hasn't been as easy as I thought.

Some of the general critiques:

1) Questionable RAPM.

His RAPM hovers around 10th or higher every year except starting in '12 when he led the league in minutes - and in general when you see someone with crazy high minutes you have to start using the stat with a grain of salt, otherwise we don't have enough "off" data.


2) His '13/'14/'16 playoffs have been criticized as "under-performing". If his bar is so high that these numbers are defined as under-performing, then he should've been in long ago:

2013: 31-9-6 12.7% TO, 57% TS
2014: 30-9-4 12.7% TO, 57% TS
2016: 28-7-3, 12.1% TO, 54% TS

3) Suspect Defensive Impact
He's generally been getting 2+ blk/steals since '10
His DRAPM #'s aren't elite - but their solid
GSW improved defensively to -4.8 from -2.6 this year; that's material
Double digit or better Rebounding % #'s for a while now - since '10, and he's been at 12.7+ each of the last 2 years

I'm not saying he's Kawhi or anything - but he's certainly not a Melo/Dantley type on that end either. He's good - he's been very good the last couple years.

4) I don't feel like people think he peaked all that high based on some of the critiques I've been reading

-He won an MVP over Lebron
-He has 2 of the 25 highest WS years ever
-He's co-best player on arguably the GOAT Team (Higher WS/48 than Steph, was the best player in the only series where they were even a little threatened, Steph didn't miss time and was better over the 1st 3 series in aggregate as Durant shook off some rust - I call it a wash)
-He's 14th in MVP Shares - everyone else ahead of him is in already.




----------------------------------------

Steph: Right with Durant, he has the potential to be an all time Top 10 player. Every metric that you'd want is there. He's the only multiple time MVP and best player on best team left (sorry Daniels, your Pacers weren't the best team in Pro Hoops, and you weren't the best player in Hoops those years either), he's also co-best player of arguably the GOAT Team. The case for Steph is pretty straight forward - and how you feel about him getting in here reflects how you feel about the importance of longevity.
-----------------------------------------

GP (I'll be voting for him before Pippen & the A-Train): Very underrated, imo. I'll lead off with an outstanding elimination/closeout track record (which is far superior to Nash's).
22.8 PPG, 5.8 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.8 stl, 0.2 blk, 2.7 TO, 55.3% TS - all stats from '94-'03.
Had a knack for outplaying other strong point guards when it mattered because of his outstanding defensive presence and is one of very few point guards whose defensive impact is highlighted that he's the only one to win DPOY. A true all around player who averaged 21-8-5 during his prime while bringing elite defense and averaged 24-8-5 during the playoffs and had a tendency of showing up when it mattered. Has more Win Shares & VORP (the latter by a lot) vs. Nash even though one of Payton's best seasons ('99) was a lockout shortened one.

GP isn't getting any other sort of traction, so I should probably address the two issues likely to crop up:

1) The Denver series. There's no justification for it. It really is indefensible. 3 of those games are in my elimination/closeout records and his 2 worst performances in those types of games were in the Denver series (Games 3 & 5).
1A) The '95 LA Series. Van Exel out played him. Between '94 & '95 these were two years where a Title was in play for Seattle and they didn't just take a dump on the bed, they got up and smeared it on the wall as well :noway: :roll:

That said - those series did factor into the overall playoff and elimination record I showed above - and the overall track record is strong. It's unfortunate that he peaked later than a lot of other point guards did - and by the time he peaked the talent on him was not championship caliber to say the least; if you consider '99 or 2000 his peak, it was an outright dumpster fire situation.

2) His RPAM numbers are not as good as they could be. I'm not a huge fan of +/- stats but I can't ignore them either.

'97 & '98 are very strong - '99 for some reason isn't great - but I suspect team context (middling overall record, was out there for virtually all meaningful minutes - 2,010 minutes in a 50 game season is a ton) - even though 2000 bounces back. '01-'03 are basically flat even though WIn Shares & VORP remain at very high levels in '01 & '02 in particular. I don't think his '03 season has tremendous impact - and I think his defense was starting to slip in '01 & '02. It was probably still good - but not necessarily warranting the All D honors he received either.

I'm OK with this wart because I don't think RPAM stats do a great job of explaining elite players' impact who play huge minutes on basically .500 teams - it feels like a "blind spot" for the model - moreso in the years I'm referencing than some of the later years. The inconsistency from '99 to '00 in the metric is odd even though his other performance indicators are fairly comparable and I've read some of the multi-year work in this area - which makes me trust the '99 number less. I'm definitely aware of the flaws in the '97-'00 data vs. other years, but I do think it's important to at least speak to the wart.

If anyone has questions on why I picked Pippen or Artis over competitors in those spaces, I'm more than happy to address - but I won't be voting for them in my Top 30, so I'm not going to write too much yet.

--------------------------------------------

1st choice: Kevin Durant
Alternate Selection: Steph Curry
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#8 » by eminence » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:18 pm

LA Bird wrote:
eminence wrote:Does anybody have Elgee's old post on Opportunities Created? I think I remember Kidd coming out a lot less favorably in that than in traditional assists.

https://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/02/18/opportunities-created-oc/
https://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2010-playoff-leaders-oc.pdf

Of those 133 qualifying players, the following had the largest discrepancy between assists and OC’s per 100 possesions (number of OC’s per 100 in parentheses):

Rajon Rondo 6.8 (5.6 OC’s per 100)
Ronny Price 5.8 (1.2 OC’s)
Jason Kidd 4.7 (4.7 OC’s)
Luke Walton 4.0 (4.0 OC’s)
Jamrio Moon 3.9 (0.0 OC’s)

and the following players have the largest discrepancy between OC’s and assists (meaning they create more than assists would suggest):

Brandon Roy 5.3 (8.7 OC’s)
Nowitzki 4.0 (8.3 OC’s)
Ginobili 3.3 (12.4 OC’s)
Westbrook 2.8 (11.7 OC’s)
Reddick 2.4 (6.3 OC’s)


Ahh, I see that was just for '11, I was remembering it as career. Probably doesn't mean much for '11, just another reinforcement that Dirk was great.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#9 » by 2klegend » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:31 am

A few candidates worth mentioning, Clyde, Pippen, Durant.

Clyde vs Pippen - Clyde may be a better 1st option but he will never win a title as a 1st option due to lacking 1st level offensive capability. Same as Pippen. However for a 2nd option, both showed they could do it successfully. The question is who is the better 2nd option. This is where my belief is Pip was the best 2nd option. He may be the GOAT 2nd option. Pip won 6x title as 2nd option vs 1 for Clyde. I believe Pip value as a GOAT 2nd option was due to his elite defensive capability in addition to offensive facilitator role. So while Pip is lacking offensive scoring ability, he makes it up with it by being an offensive facilitator. I can't say the same for Clydes in that regard. Therefore Pip won this from an accomplishment standpoint.

Pip vs Durant - Durant is clearly the better player. Offensively they are not close at all. Defensively Pip had the edge but it wasn't large. Accomplishment wide, Durant got 1x title, 1 MVP and multiple all NBA 1st vs Pip a few NBA 1st and 6x titles as 2nd option. I'm leaning toward Durant but I think it's not the right time to choose him over Pip with his career still very much in play. He can end up higher than 20th for we know by the time he hangs up his jersey. So for Pip respect, I'm going with Pip, the GOAT 2nd option star.

1st Vote: Pip
2nd Vote: Durant
My Top 100+ GOAT (Peak, Prime, Longevity, Award):
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#10 » by JordansBulls » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:49 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:Anyone have some thoughts on pippen vs drexler?

Virtually the same overall with different strengths. I would say Drexler overall simply because you know for sure he can lead a team to the finals as the lead guy on a team in a tough conference.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#11 » by RCM88x » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:23 am

Vote: Scottie Pippen

In my opinion the GOAT perimeter defender, and one of the best passing Forwards of all time. Pippen posted an impressive prime run of 9 seasons from '90 to '98, averaging a BPM of 6.1 and a WS/48 of .173. He ranks an impressive 13th all time in career playoff WS, 18th in career average playoff BPM, and an insane 5th all time in playoff VORP.

In my opinion, probably the idea 2nd option. Doesn't need the ball to have an impact and when he does, is a 3 way threat to drive, pass or shoot.

2nd Vote: John Havlicek
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#12 » by trex_8063 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:50 am

Well, I think the two best peaks left on the table are Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry (between the two, I think Curry is the slightly higher player peak), though Durant's been around longer and has a longer prime. Curry has one more MVP than Durant, but it's worth noting that those are Curry's ONLY top 5 MVP finishes. Durant has FOUR seasons finishing in the top 2, SIX seasons in the top 5 (seven in the top 10: basically every prime year except the one in which he was injured). In a nut-shell, that’s the separation between them for me. Where will I have Curry in another two years? Well, I suspect I’ll have him roughly where I have Durant now (or just marginally higher, assuming no injury).

I like Durant's combination of length, athleticism, elite shooting, playmaking ability (relative to size and SF or SF/PF position), solid rebounding, and [in recent years] his defense. I feel his impact has been "missed” to some degree by many available impact metrics. I don’t think it’s coincidence that OKC’s SRS fell by nearly 6 pts when he left, or that their ORtg fell from +6.7 to -0.5.

His longevity [or lack there of, if you want to think of it that way] is the only thing that holds him back to the ~24-28 range on my ATL. In another 2-3 years, I suspect I'll have him in my top 20.

What I’m not sure on is who to give my second pick to. Mostly I’m flipping a coin between Pippen and Havlicek. Two very similar players; I feel Pippen basically did the “Hondo thing”, but was a little better at it. However, he had a relatively short prime (noting he had a 17-year career really oversells his longevity, although he did have ~14-15 seasons a decent usefulness). Hondo beats him a little in this regard, though.
The other guy I could seriously consider is Jason Kidd (+/- Artis Gilmore, too). I need to be sold more on Gilmore’s impact in the NBA, though.

For now, I’m tentatively going with:
1st vote: Kevin Durant
2nd vote: Scottie Pippen
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#13 » by trex_8063 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:56 am

RCM88x wrote:Vote: Scottie Pippen

In my opinion the GOAT perimeter defender, and one of the best passing Forwards of all time. Pippen posted an impressive prime run of 9 seasons from '90 to '98, averaging a BPM of 6.1 and a WS/48 of .173. He ranks an impressive 13th all time in career playoff WS, 18th in career average playoff BPM, and an insane 5th all time in playoff VORP.

In my opinion, probably the idea 2nd option. Doesn't need the ball to have an impact and when he does, is a 3 way threat to drive, pass or shoot.

2nd Vote: Patrick Ewing


Come on people. I put the up-to-date list in the OP of each and every new thread. This sort of spoils the fantasy that participants are following the project discussion [at least as much as time allows], when people can't seem to even follow who's been voted in already.

Sorry, not meaning to pick on you here, RCM88x, because actually you're the FOURTH person to do this. I almost feel like I'm being punked.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#14 » by RCM88x » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:57 am

trex_8063 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:Vote: Scottie Pippen

In my opinion the GOAT perimeter defender, and one of the best passing Forwards of all time. Pippen posted an impressive prime run of 9 seasons from '90 to '98, averaging a BPM of 6.1 and a WS/48 of .173. He ranks an impressive 13th all time in career playoff WS, 18th in career average playoff BPM, and an insane 5th all time in playoff VORP.

In my opinion, probably the idea 2nd option. Doesn't need the ball to have an impact and when he does, is a 3 way threat to drive, pass or shoot.

2nd Vote: Patrick Ewing


Come on people. I put the up-to-date list in the OP of each and every new thread. This sort of spoils the fantasy that participants are following the project discussion [at least as much as time allows], when people can't seem to even follow who's been voted in already.

Sorry, not meaning to pick on you here, RCM88x, because actually you're the FOURTH person to do this. I almost feel like I'm being punked.


Oh my god, my bad. I knew I made that mistake and just forgot to change it. Sorry, I edited my post.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#15 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:04 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:Anyone have some thoughts on pippen vs drexler?


That's a good one.

The first question is if you value titles as a legit metric. If so, Pippen wins and we need not dig further. So far I don't think this group sees it that way, so we should move further.

Dexler's awards
10x allstar
5x allnba (1first 2 second 2 third)
MVP top 2nd in 92 and one other top 5.

Pippen's awards
7x allstar
7x all nba (3x first, 2x second, 2x third)
10x all defense
MVP top results 3rd one other top 5.
allstar MVP (I don't value it but I know others like those)

Advanced stats

Pippen
PER 18.6 (23.2 peak)
WS 125.1 (13.1)
VORP 69.6 (7.4)

Drexler
PER 21.1 (24.1)
WS 135.6 (13.2)
VORP 75.6 (7.3)

Pippen suffered major pack issues starting around 97 in the playoffs (someone correct me I'm doing this off memory). Anyway he became a role player who was an elite vet talent and was able to help the blazers nearly beat the lakers. The negative here is that he was just a role player for a large chunk of his later career which was a real shame. The end result is that he didn't have better longevity and was diminished a lot. Stats are going to hurt him being MJ's number two, but he certainly did it well.

So really the case for Pippen is that he was able to be that number two guy on 6 title teams which imo is under valued, but at the same time despite a bit more all nba success he might not have had as many nearly all nba level years. Their peaks are closer than you might think, but Drexler was the guy who got his team to the finals twice as the best player, pippen didn't do that.

Their playoff stats are really close career so that might indicate pippen didn't have a drop off in them. I also think very very highly of his intangibles against the jazz, which I doubt show up on the box score but man he gave up years of his career in some of those games.

I still think I'm going Pippen, but I don't think it's a given. I struggle since both were better than ewing, but ranking anyone else from that era this high would make this list almost become comical for me.
dhsilv2
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#16 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:09 am

trex_8063 wrote:Well, I think the two best peaks left on the table are Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry (between the two, I think Curry is the slightly higher player peak), though Durant's been around longer and has a longer prime.


Reed won the MVP, finals MVP, allstar MVP, first team all nba and first team defense in 70. I know the stats don't seem to line up with that next to these guys, but were people just drunk? Virtually nobody has a season like that on the awards and results side. That is easily the most acclaimed year remaining.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#17 » by pandrade83 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:34 am

This is obviously overly simplistic, but I think is a decent way of combining playoffs, peak & career impact. I borrowed the concept from Dr. Positivity.

Win Shares + (Playoff Win Shares * 6) + MVP Shares * 40

On Pippen vs. Drexler, it gives an edge to Pip.

Durant, A-Train & Pippen are the 3 highest candidates on this list not already in. It definitely shouldn't be a be-all end-all, but it's good reference as we keep moving through. It helps you think about if you're not giving a player enough love or if someone's really dropped out of control. It doesn't match our list perfectly - but I think it's a good thing to be able to check against.

Spoiler:
Rank Player Total
1 Michael Jordan* 777.18
2 LeBron James 773.88
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 730.97
4 Tim Duncan 604.54
5 Wilt Chamberlain* 602.94
6 Magic Johnson* 555.73
7 Karl Malone* 544.41
8 Shaquille O'Neal* 543.39
9 Bill Russell* 519.99
10 Larry Bird* 519.29
11 Kobe Bryant 510.38
12 Julius Erving* 484.49
13 Dirk Nowitzki 412.46
14 David Robinson* 408.71
15 Jerry West* 403.92
16 Hakeem Olajuwon* 402.77
17 Kevin Garnett 400.06
18 Charles Barkley* 391.81
19 Moses Malone* 382.11
20 Oscar Robertson* 369.47
21 Kevin Durant 347.85
22 John Stockton* 342.24
23 Bob Pettit* 313.33
24 Artis Gilmore* 305.51
25 Steve Nash 298.11
26 Chris Paul 295.72
27 Scottie Pippen* 295.2
28 Reggie Miller* 293.8
29 Dwyane Wade 278.12
30 Dan Issel* 275.96
31 Patrick Ewing* 267.77
32 Jason Kidd 262.58
33 Elgin Baylor* 261.27
34 Clyde Drexler* 259.69
35 Chauncey Billups 259.38
36 John Havlicek* 259.06
37 Dolph Schayes* 255.3
38 Ray Allen 254.84
39 Robert Parish* 251.86
40 Kevin McHale* 250.3
41 Paul Pierce 249.5
42 Gary Payton* 245.23
43 Dwight Howard 245.1
44 Mel Daniels* 242.33
45 Horace Grant 238.23
46 Stephen Curry 235.75
47 Rick Barry* 231.41
48 Pau Gasol 228.93
49 Manu Ginobili 228.82
50 Zelmo Beaty* 224.1
51 James Harden 217.66
52 Walt Frazier* 215.82
53 Elvin Hayes* 213.9
54 Wes Unseld* 212.54
55 George Gervin* 210.8
56 George Mikan* 210.48
57 Tony Parker 206.75
58 Allen Iverson* 205.21
59 Russell Westbrook 202.87
60 Dave Cowens* 197.36
61 Rasheed Wallace 196.71
62 Jeff Hornacek 195.51
63 Adrian Dantley* 194.2
64 Bob Lanier* 189.97
65 Ben Wallace 188.61
66 Sam Jones* 186.35
67 Bob McAdoo* 186.16
68 Maurice Cheeks 182.32
69 Terry Porter 181.03
70 Connie Hawkins* 180.45
71 Bob Cousy* 180.41
72 Shawn Marion 179.21
73 Chet Walker* 179.05
74 Bobby Jones 178.22
75 Dikembe Mutombo* 176.44
76 Robert Horry 175.73
77 Alonzo Mourning* 173.46
78 Paul Arizin* 172.8
79 Roger Brown* 170.78
80 James Worthy* 170.63
81 Buck Williams 170.41
82 Jimmy Jones 170.37
83 Bill Laimbeer 170.24
84 Vince Carter 168.78
85 Isiah Thomas* 168.67
86 Sam Perkins 168.33
87 Sidney Moncrief 165.82
88 Dennis Johnson* 164.9
89 Willis Reed* 164.54
90 Jack Sikma 163.98
91 Chris Bosh 163.58
92 Dennis Rodman* 161.87
93 Bailey Howell* 159.16
94 A.C. Green 158.02
95 Charles Oakley 156.58
96 Larry Nance 153.79
97 Cliff Hagan* 153.68
98 Kevin Johnson 151.93
99 Dominique Wilkins* 151.27
100 Shawn Kemp 149.85
dhsilv2
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#18 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:48 am

Guards – Curry, Cousy, Thomas, and Frazier
Shoot Guard – Sam Jones, Iverson, Gervin
Small Forwards – Pippen, Baylor, Havlicek, Durant, Barry
Power Forwards – McHale
Center – Reed

This is my list up to now I believe 41 due to what I'll nicely say was the comical overrating of Ewing. A lot of people were upset over Wade, Paul, and stockton, so I guess I can't be too upset. Still Ewing is just so far from a top 30 player in my view I'll need time to get over it.

Barry is really interesting to me here. First two years in the NBA were insane then he takes a year off and goes to the aba, does well, comes back and comes back slowly before having a great year ending in a title. His second year in the nba really has me going "wow". Anyway he's up there. I'm still big on baylor at this point.

Reed has the best single season accolades by far here. Given we just took the second best knicks center maybe I should think about him, but longevity turns me off.

Vote remains Kevin Durant. His MVP voting is just too staggering to ignore. Of those left his career has the length and quality of length I'd expect here. Given how close many felt he was to Lebron who we ranked 3rd, i think I should have supported him earlier, but here we are.

The second pick remains rough for me. I almost feel like a vote for pippen would be wrong just due to the over saturation of his era. Though Pippen was clearly better to me, so a difficult view.

2nd Vote Curry I believe he's the only 2x MVP (NBA only) left. His 3 year run has been other worldly. He's the only unanimous MVP and yet somehow he's getting underrated. He's also a better player than KD which is fitting given I think in 2 years these two will have to switch spots.

HM Pippen Balyor and Barry

i should add drexler is now on my radar as is GP. Some good questions on both of these guys have me considering adjusting my list. Thomas could come out for GP and Jones for Drexler. Gilmore requires more research or hopefully some good discussion here. Or this will just expand to me running list for the top 45. Though by 45 I was expecting Howard on the center size. I tell you what, this is hard guys! I've been looking at more playoff boxscores these last two weeks than ever before. Really wish I had this data in excel or access but it is what it is.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#19 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:50 am

pandrade83 wrote:This is obviously overly simplistic, but I think is a decent way of combining playoffs, peak & career impact. I borrowed the concept from Dr. Positivity.

Win Shares + (Playoff Win Shares * 6) + MVP Shares * 40

On Pippen vs. Drexler, it gives an edge to Pip.

Durant, A-Train & Pippen are the 3 highest candidates on this list not already in. It definitely shouldn't be a be-all end-all, but it's good reference as we keep moving through. It helps you think about if you're not giving a player enough love or if someone's really dropped out of control. It doesn't match our list perfectly - but I think it's a good thing to be able to check against.

Spoiler:
Rank Player Total
1 Michael Jordan* 777.18
2 LeBron James 773.88
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 730.97
4 Tim Duncan 604.54
5 Wilt Chamberlain* 602.94
6 Magic Johnson* 555.73
7 Karl Malone* 544.41
8 Shaquille O'Neal* 543.39
9 Bill Russell* 519.99
10 Larry Bird* 519.29
11 Kobe Bryant 510.38
12 Julius Erving* 484.49
13 Dirk Nowitzki 412.46
14 David Robinson* 408.71
15 Jerry West* 403.92
16 Hakeem Olajuwon* 402.77
17 Kevin Garnett 400.06
18 Charles Barkley* 391.81
19 Moses Malone* 382.11
20 Oscar Robertson* 369.47
21 Kevin Durant 347.85
22 John Stockton* 342.24
23 Bob Pettit* 313.33
24 Artis Gilmore* 305.51
25 Steve Nash 298.11
26 Chris Paul 295.72
27 Scottie Pippen* 295.2
28 Reggie Miller* 293.8
29 Dwyane Wade 278.12
30 Dan Issel* 275.96
31 Patrick Ewing* 267.77
32 Jason Kidd 262.58
33 Elgin Baylor* 261.27
34 Clyde Drexler* 259.69
35 Chauncey Billups 259.38
36 John Havlicek* 259.06
37 Dolph Schayes* 255.3
38 Ray Allen 254.84
39 Robert Parish* 251.86
40 Kevin McHale* 250.3
41 Paul Pierce 249.5
42 Gary Payton* 245.23
43 Dwight Howard 245.1
44 Mel Daniels* 242.33
45 Horace Grant 238.23
46 Stephen Curry 235.75
47 Rick Barry* 231.41
48 Pau Gasol 228.93
49 Manu Ginobili 228.82
50 Zelmo Beaty* 224.1
51 James Harden 217.66
52 Walt Frazier* 215.82
53 Elvin Hayes* 213.9
54 Wes Unseld* 212.54
55 George Gervin* 210.8
56 George Mikan* 210.48
57 Tony Parker 206.75
58 Allen Iverson* 205.21
59 Russell Westbrook 202.87
60 Dave Cowens* 197.36
61 Rasheed Wallace 196.71
62 Jeff Hornacek 195.51
63 Adrian Dantley* 194.2
64 Bob Lanier* 189.97
65 Ben Wallace 188.61
66 Sam Jones* 186.35
67 Bob McAdoo* 186.16
68 Maurice Cheeks 182.32
69 Terry Porter 181.03
70 Connie Hawkins* 180.45
71 Bob Cousy* 180.41
72 Shawn Marion 179.21
73 Chet Walker* 179.05
74 Bobby Jones 178.22
75 Dikembe Mutombo* 176.44
76 Robert Horry 175.73
77 Alonzo Mourning* 173.46
78 Paul Arizin* 172.8
79 Roger Brown* 170.78
80 James Worthy* 170.63
81 Buck Williams 170.41
82 Jimmy Jones 170.37
83 Bill Laimbeer 170.24
84 Vince Carter 168.78
85 Isiah Thomas* 168.67
86 Sam Perkins 168.33
87 Sidney Moncrief 165.82
88 Dennis Johnson* 164.9
89 Willis Reed* 164.54
90 Jack Sikma 163.98
91 Chris Bosh 163.58
92 Dennis Rodman* 161.87
93 Bailey Howell* 159.16
94 A.C. Green 158.02
95 Charles Oakley 156.58
96 Larry Nance 153.79
97 Cliff Hagan* 153.68
98 Kevin Johnson 151.93
99 Dominique Wilkins* 151.27
100 Shawn Kemp 149.85


I like it for similar eras. That's WAY too much of a bias on the playoffs if you go back in time where hte playoff runs were so much shorter. For modern guys I might nerf the MVP and use VORP instead of WS myself. But you can't go further back.
dhsilv2
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #28 

Post#20 » by dhsilv2 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:51 am

delete

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