RealGM 2017 Top 100 #74 (Bobby Jones)

Post #1 » by **trex_8063** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:26 pm

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Kevin Durant
29. Stephen Curry
30. Scottie Pippen
31. John Havlicek
32. Elgin Baylor
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Rick Barry
35. Gary Payton
36. Artis Gilmore
37. Jason Kidd
38. Walt Frazier
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Kevin McHale
41. George Gervin
42. Reggie Miller
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dwight Howard
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Bob Cousy
47. Ray Allen
48. Pau Gasol
49. Wes Unseld
50. Robert Parish
51. Russell Westbrook
52. Alonzo Mourning
53. Dikembe Mutombo
54. Manu Ginobili
55. Chauncey Billups
56. Willis Reed
57. Bob Lanier
58. Allen Iverson
59. Adrian Dantley
60. Dave Cowens
61. Elvin Hayes
62. Dominique Wilkins
63. Vince Carter
64. Alex English
65. Tracy McGrady
66. James Harden
67. Nate Thurmond
68. Sam Jones
69. Kevin Johnson
70. Bob McAdoo
71. Sidney Moncrief
72. Paul Arizin
73. Grant Hill
74. ????

Go.

Spoiler:

Post #2 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:35 pm

Mel Daniels is the best true big men left (ok, other than the 1.5 seasons you get from Walton). Daniels is a two time MVP and best player on two championship teams plus a willing support role on a third championship though in a weak league. I tend to value defense, particularly for big men, and Mel was basically the original Alonzo Mourning with more rebounding but less shotblocking. He was a 1st round NBA pick (the first to sign with the ABA) and in the NBA would probably have been one of the best centers as well, not in the Jabbar league but then neither was anyone else, but contending with Unseld/Cowens for the rebounding leaderboard and 2nd team All-Defense and with 15-20ppg scoring on limited range (Slick Leonard drew a circle on the floor 10 feet or so from the basket and told him he would be fined if he ever shot outside that range). Like Zo, his playmaking was mediocre but in addition to strong rebounding and defense, he was Indiana's intimidator, in a league where everyone was trying to make a name for themselves. And, he did it without major foul trouble issues. The two MVPs show he was valued above his box scores.

Bobby Jones, James Worthy, Shawn Marion ... All combo forwards but Hill and Hill was more of a power SF in his prime. Walton just didn't play enough for me to list him in any top 100 careers though his peak was terrific.

Bobby Jones is NBA's all time leader with 10 1st team All-Defense awards (including 2 in ABA). Superefficient, nice midrange j, good passer, didn't create for himself much. Super smart, willing to play 6th man roles if it helps the team.

Worthy is a guy who can create for himself from the post and one of the great open court finishers ever. A bit less range than Jones and a weaker rebounder, also a decent passer. His calling card are some terrific playoff scoring games.

Shawn Marion. Possibly the best athlete of 4 outstanding athletic forwards. Almost at Bobby Jones's level as a help defender approaching the 2 block/2 steal level at times; he sometimes seemed to be everywhere in Phoenix covering for Amare and Nash while still scoring 20ppg. Best off ball movement and best rebounder of the 4 as well. Two caveats for why I have him below Jones and Worthy. First, his playoffs were not good as he was beaten by lesser players like Lamar Odom. Second, he did apparently whine about his role in Phoenix. He also benefitted tremendously from playing with Steve Nash if you look at his efficiency with Nash v. without.

Vote: Mel Daniels
Alternative: Bobby Jones

Post #3 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:40 pm

Vote 1 - Hal Greer

Vote 2 - Carmelo Anthony

- 15 year career (all with same franchise)
- 7x all NBA 2nd team
- 1 top 10 MVP finish
- Sixers all time leader in games played, minutes played, FGM, total points

Looking at greer, cunningham and carmelo. Also compared them to brand and parker. I came away most impressed with greer’s overall body of work. He had marked consistency throughout his career, along with impressive durability and longevity for his time. He played in 79+ games in 10 of his 15 seasons, which spanned from 59-73. He scored on above average efficiency relative to his era, putting up the following #s from 61-70:

22 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 4.4 APG, 45.4% FG, 80.3% FT (6 FTAs per game), 51% TS, .135 WS/48

He performed similarly in the playoffs, playing a major role in the 67 sixers championship run, commonly considered one of the best teams of all time:

27.7 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.3 APG, 42.9% FG, 79.7% FT (7.9 FTAs per game), 48.7% TS (league avg that yr 49.3%), .130 WS/48

"I knew Hal when I got there [as the Sixers' business manager] in '68. I was with him for one year," said Pat Williams, who was raised in Wilmington and later became the Sixers' general manager for 12 seasons. "Tough little bulldog. He was tough as nails. And quiet. Didn't talk much ... but would just go out and perform. Maybe the best middle distance jump shooter of all-time. You could argue that. That 15-, 16-, 17-foot range. It was like a layup to him.”

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4498

It’s been echoed elsewhere that he had the best mid range jumper of his generation. Also effective on both ends of the floor, and could post you up on either baseline. Stayed within the confines of his game, which ultimately led to team success. If he had range out to 17 feet, it stands to reason he would’ve been able to develop a 3 pointer in this era.

Some great videos on the 67 sixers from (I believe) our own Dipper 13:

Watch on YouTube

More insight on Greer per Dipper 13 (be sure to click spoiler):

Tremendous athlete as well, great agility & quickness and could stop on a dime and pull up. It is not surprising to see Greer fall this low, seeing as he apparently was underrated by most even during his playing days. Not being a self promoter or big interview with the press will do that, plus he was overshadowed by Wilt during some of his best years. I'm sure if the Sixers had repeated in 1968, then Greer would have been voted in well before this point. Wilt even said he was on par with Robertson or West, for what it is worth.

Spoiler:

Post #4 » by **trex_8063** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:12 am

1st vote: Tony Parker

NEW [since #72 thread] COMMENTS:
There'd been some comments/criticisms against him pertaining to "career luck" in landing on the Spurs, the implicit being that we cannot count all the team accomplishments as his personal accomplishments (the anti-ringz argument, if you will). Fair enough, but I don't see that as ruling him out at this stage.
If we take all his team success and accomplishments (not just titles, but stellar rs records, frequent playoff runs, as well as all honors, accolades, MVP shares, etc) at face value, with some slight weighting of era competitiveness, then one might conclude we're already 15-20 places late on him.
I've a complex formulation which I've mentioned at times in the past, which factors in just about everything under the sun (except RAPM or on/off based stats, because we don't have that for earlier eras, though it DOES utilize WOWY data) including raw totals, PER, WS, WS/48 (rs and playoffs), career length, strength of peak season (as defined by PER*WS/48*mpg), ORtg/DRtg (estimates based on team ratings for early eras), aforementioned WOWY, awards, honors, MVP shares, titles and finals appearances, rs and playoff win%, era ratings, positional era ratings, etc etc etc.......I have four different versions of this formula (differing weighting on various factors and/or differing era ratings): two of the four rank Parker as high as #47, none lower than #60. But I acknowledge these formulas have a bit too much "winner's bias", as well as perhaps requiring some re-tooling of era ratings. But jsia.........it's only out of consideration for "career luck" (among other things) that I didn't begin supporting Parker earlier.

A more simple formula which simply measures career value above a replacement level player as measured by PER and WS/48 (replacement player defined as 13.5 PER and .078 WS/48 for rs, 12.5 PER and .064 WS/48 for playoffs)---where each playoff minute played is weighted 3.25x heavier than each rs minute----ranks Tony Parker #68 all-time (and that's before giving any consideration at all toward strength of era).
fwiw, this same formula ranks Chris Bosh #59, Shawn Marion #61, Carmelo Anthony #66, the newly voted-in Paul Arizin #72, Chris Webber #83, Bobby Jones #86, Grant Hill #92.

How does he stand in terms of impact data vs some of these same individuals?
Utilizing the following sources for the following years:
'94-'96: colts18's rs-only APM.
'97-'00: ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt RAPM (PI for '98-'00, NPI for '97).
'01-'13: J.E.'s RAPM sheets (NPI for '01 and '12, PI for other years).
'14: the now "deceased" GotBuckets? website PI RAPM (*where available---there were a few players whom I didn't get around to adding to my spreadsheet until after the site went kaput, and I can't seem to locate any other source of RAPM data for '14; closest I've found was a IPV (Individual Player Value) metric on the Talking Practice blog (but I'm not a big fan of it))
'15-'17: J.E.'s RAPM googlesheets (PI used)
Also have some APM for '88-'93 for select members of the 76'ers (as +/- was being tracked by one of the execs at the time, and I forget who----Dipper? Elgee? someone....---ran a regression of the numbers).

......So from all of these sources, we have impact data going back basically two and a half decades (which covers pretty near half of the player seasons played in the NBA/ABA history).

And from those sources, here's how some noteworthies (for this stage of the project) rank in it Best 10 Years combined RAPM:
Chris Bosh: +31.3
Dikembe Mutombo (#53): +29.05
Grant Hill (#73): +27.77
Tony Parker: +26.83
Ben Wallace: +25.97
Shawn Marion: +24.7
Chris Webber: +21.03
Elton Brand: +20.4
Carmelo Anthony: +13.65

Best 12 Years:
Chris Bosh: +32.34
Dikembe Mutombo (#53): +30.21
Tony Parker: +29.23
Grant Hill (#73): +27.97
Ben Wallace: +26.07
Shawn Marion: +22.07
Elton Brand: +19.9
Chris Webber: +18.07
Carmelo Anthony: +11.75

So he's very much in the mix from an impact perspective.

And the other more conventional arguments:
Accolades: 6-Time NBA All-Star, 4-time All-NBA (3x 2nd Team, 1x 3rd Team). Figured into the MVP vote SEVEN seasons, as high as 5th, four times in the top 10.

Narrative: Core piece of a dynasty, with 5 trips to the NBA finals, 4 rings, 1 FMVP.

Statistical/style: A quick as hell penetrator who finishes well at the rim, and from a longevity standpoint, he starts looking pretty good statistically.....
Over the 10-year span of '05-'14---which covers 706 rs games (sticking with rTS% and per 100 possession numbers, for better cross-era comps):
29.7 pts, 4.9 reb, 10.2 ast, 4.2 tov @ +2.07% rTS in 32.7 mpg. (20.5 PER, .160 WS/48, +1.8 BPM, +6 efficiency differential).......again, that's over a solid decade. He's got at least 2-3 other better than average seasons besides. Is 65th in NBA/ABA history in rs WS, 51st in playoff WS, fwiw.

2nd vote: Chris Bosh
I've come about thinking more highly of Chris Bosh in the last few days. Unfortunate his career's been cut short as it has, but the amount of consistency it requires to be an 11-Time All-Star in this day and age is impressive, his impact appears among the best of those players left on the table, malleable to multiple situations/scenarios. I'd be perfectly happy with him at this spot, too.

Top HM is Shawn Marion (Dan Issel and Ben Wallace also on deck).

pandrade83 · Post #5 » by **pandrade83** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:17 am

Have some work to do tonight & tomorrow is the last day in the office and I'm traveling over the holidays, so this will be briefer than usual. I'll try and get more in after the holidays.

1st vote: Chris Bosh
2nd vote: Larry Nance

I'll go with Chris Bosh. An 11 time all-star and key member of the '11-'14 Heat.

Bosh was a star in Toronto - getting 3 20/10 seasons and finishing 14th in RAPM from '08-'11. He could've been a great stats/bad team guy but he shows a lot of maturity in terms of being willing to evolve in Miami. He turns himself into an efficient stretch big who scored efficiently and helped set up strong spacing for Lebron & Wade. He played solid defense over that time and Miami doesn't enjoy the success that they do without him. Even after Lebron leaves, Bosh is the co-lead in MIami with Wade, taking the Heat to the 2nd round in '16.

It's unfortunate that health cut his career short, but he still finished with 106 WS and 32 K Minutes Played from a longevity standpoint. You also have to have solid longevity to get to 11 All-Star Appearances.

I take Bosh > Parker & Worthy because I felt that Bosh was more of a needle mover than those two - he has 30% more WS than Worthy which is material & I don't get excited about Parker's peak.

I can't go with Daniels here - too many concerns about the time he peaked & he has pretty awful longevity. He's not someone I'd support til the end & I think that other ABA MVPS (Cunningham, Beaty) have stronger cases in general - not to mention that Hawkins has an elite peak. I'm not impressed by the game tape I've seen of him.

----------------------------

I think Nance gets lost in the shuffle a bit historically.

I don't have much time here, so I'll post game tape & hope that gets me a foot in the door with some folks.

Watch on YouTube

Note that he takes the opening tip at age 32 over taller Brad Daugherty.

Shows good range, intelligent movement without the ball, quality passer, strong help defender, solid post moves. He has solid longevity with 110 WS and generally played well in the playoffs (the video I posted was a closeout where Cleveland lost).

A typical year is 19-8-3-1 steal, 2.5 blocks on really strong shooting metrics with good turnover economy especially for a big and good help defense.

I'd rather have 12 years of that than anything anyone else has to offer at this stage after Bosh is off the board.

Post #6 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:17 am

Nance also beat Julius Erving, among others, in the NBA's first Slam Dunk competition.

And, yeah, I'd take the Hawk (or Walton) over a lot of guys already in . . . if either had been able to keep up their prime game for more than a season and a half (Hawkins did get 1st team All-NBA but it was more as a jump shooter and wing than as the PF slasher he was in his ABA year or that he was known for as a playground legend). Hawkins hung around and was an excellent passer but his knees were shot after that second major knee surgery and he just didn't dominate anymore. Daniels may not have a long career but his prime is 5 years (at the bottom end of barely acceptable) and he won two MVPs in that time. Just no time to speak of as a "good not great" guy (2 years at the end; his rookie season he was physically impressive but played dumb, shooting a lot of long 2's and the like).

Post #7 » by **trex_8063** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:39 pm

penbeast0 wrote: Daniels may not have a long career but his prime is 5 years (at the bottom end of barely acceptable) and he won two MVPs in that time.

If Mel' best six seasons had been during the final six seasons of the ABA (as opposed to the first six), I'd be less skeptical of his achievements (I suspect others share my reservations). But that early ABA appears so questionable in competitiveness.....

'68
Connie Hawkins is the run-away best player in the league, and proves it in basically every way imaginable, as statistically dominant as nearly anyone has ever been; if we take it at face value, in fact, we'd have to conclude Hawkins is a top 5-6 player peak ever.
There literally are no other great players in the league. Rookie Mel Daniels earns All-ABA 1st Team despite "playing dumb" (your words), because there are no other great centers to challenge him for the honor (John Beasley and Red Robbins (the latter at 6'8", 190 lbs) being the other "really good" centers in the league).
This is a league where Larry Brown---at 5'9" (so I'm guessing a defensive liability)---was awarded All-ABA 2nd Team honors (and finished 6th in the MVP vote) while averaging 13.4 ppg @ -0.72% rTS, 6.5 apg, 4.6 topg. Guys like Charles Williams and Cincinnatus Powell also are getting All-ABA honors this year. Cliff Hagan, who'd been relegated to a role player in final year in the NBA ('66), comes into this ABA----at age 36, and after a year of retirement---and is an All-Star (more deserving of All-ABA honors than some of those who did receive them in this league, during the 56 games he was able to play anyway).
All of this collectively makes me question how tough or competitive the league was.

'69
This is Mel Daniel's first MVP (you've frequently made a point of stating his two MVP's), but it was nearly by default, no?
Connie Hawkins is still around, and starts out arguably even better than he'd been in '68. But he gets injured before the halfway point of the season, misses >40% of the year and is not even remotely the same player when he comes back.
Rick Barry has joined the league----and is utterly tearing it up early on......but he too gets injured and misses ~60% of the season (plus the playoffs).
And beyond them who was/would have been competition for the MVP? Jimmy Jones? Jones had a remarkable year, but a true outlier for him (fwiw, that Jones----who was only 24 at the time----was never able to repeat [or even come close] to this level of dominance/play again is another thing that makes one question the strength of the ABA at that particular time).
If BOTH Barry and Hawkins don't get injured, I personally doubt that Daniels wins the MVP.
The league as a whole seems only marginally more competitive than the previous season, with improvements of the aforementioned Jones, as well as Red Robbins and Donnie Freeman, and additions of some decent rookies (such as Ron Boone and Warren Jabali), though Hagan declines due to age and injury. Daniels and the Pacers make it to the finals, but lose 4-1 (nice supporting cast---relative to league----which included Roger Brown, Freddie Lewis, and Bob Netolicky).

'70
This year brings in Spencer Haywood (who, like Connie Hawkins a couple years previously, proved he was comfortably the best player in the league). otoh, Connie Hawkins is now gone from the league, Jimmy Jones is suddenly not so spectacular, and Rick Barry is once again injury-hampered (misses nearly 40% of the season). SG Bob Verga appears to have improved substantially, and a few other pretty good rookies (Willie Wise, John Brisker, Mack Calvin) have entered the league. Overall, the league has again improved in quality over the previous year, but not by a huge amount. Daniels gets his first title.

'71
Barry's still around, though again a bit injury-hampered this year. Spencer Haywood has left the league. otoh, there's been some good players who defected from the NBA (Zelmo Beaty and Joe Caldwell), the continued improvement of guys like Roger Brown, and at least a 2-3 more very nice rookies entering the league (Dan Issel, Billy Paultz, and Charlie Scott). So again probably some small improvement in overall quality of the league. This is Mel's 2nd MVP. fwiw, his biggest competition was rookie Dan Issel, Zelmo Beaty, and maybe Roger Brown. Take that for what it's worth.

By '72, the league would obtain Erving, Gilmore, and McGinnis. In '73 it would also get Billy Cunningham (and Don Buse, fwiw, though Charlie Scott left) and shrink by one team (talent more concentrated); that's the year of Mel's 2nd title, iirc. Some of the late years of the ABA would see two or three stars leave, but would also see stars like Bobby Jones, George Gervin, Moses Malone, and David Thompson arrive for one or more seasons, while also shrinking to as small as 7 teams by partway thru the '76 season.

So you can see why I have more faith in the latter half of the ABA's stint as a truly competitive pro league.

Post #8 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:31 pm

I do too; and if Mel Daniels had had his two MVPs and 3 titles between 73 and 77 (beating out Erving, Gilmore, etc.), he would be a legit top 50 candidate. Is wasn't and so he's one of many guys with a case for top 100 but it's not a sure thing. I happen to have seen live and was extremely impressed with his energy and competitiveness (abusing Rick Barry and the Capitols actually, or to be more precise, Ira Harge and Jim Eakins). As I've said, he reminded me of a better rebounding, stronger version of Alonzo Mourning, but without the great shotblocking. But, again, until Pollin moved the Bullets to Washington, I was an ABA fan as much as an NBA one.

LA Bird · Post #9 » by **LA Bird** » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:22 pm

Still the same votes for now but it might be different next round.

1. Bobby Jones
Low minutes played is the main reason why Jones isn't ranked higher but I should point out Ginobili played pretty much the same amount of minutes and was voted in 15+ rounds ago. Jones leading Denver to the #1 record in his two ABA seasons (61 win rate) while averaging ~33 minutes a game is rarely mentioned as he seemed to be more remembered for his 6th man role in his later years. Offensively, he has one of the highest career TS% (60.7) and his assists (3.5 per 36), assist/turnover (~1.34) are both great for power forwards. Jones's scoring peaked at 19 ppg per 36 in 81 so it's not like his scoring efficiency was only high because of selective shots and extremely low usage like a DeAndre Jordan. Defensively, Jones is one of the best help defenders of all time and his 10 All-Defensive first team selections is a record that's likely to stand for a very long time. His raw plus minus stats are elite and will probably look even better if we had stats from his Nuggets seasons:

Net on-off
79: +3.4
80: +8.4
81: +10.8
82: +4.2
83: +11.0
84: +7.6
85: +10.4
86: +3.8

2. Ben Wallace
The last top 10 defensive player of all time still remaining.

Thoughts on the other candidates mentioned ITT....
• Mel Daniels: Not top 100. Poor longevity and peaked in the ABA when it was at it's weakest and declined at a young age as competition improved.
• Carmelo Anthony: Probably top 100. But his career outside of his two peak seasons in New York have been a major disappointment in my opinion.
• Hal Greer: Top 100. I would have liked to see some comparison between him and Sam Jones on both offense and defense for those who know more about the 60s.
• Chris Bosh: Top 100. Played some good offense in Toronto and defense in Miami but never really showed he could be elite on both ends of the floor at the same time.
• Tony Parker: Top 80. Long playoffs career which rates him highly in many career statistcal measures but his NBAWOWY stats were a bit disappointing.
• Larry Nance: Top 80. Efficient scoring at close to 20ppg per 36, decent rebounder/passer and an elite shotblocker.
• Shawn Marion: Top 80. Might go above Jones/Wallace after my next ranking update since I suspect I might have underrated his offensive impact on the Suns during the Nash years.

Post #10 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:12 am

Thru post #9:

Hal Greer - 1 (Clyde Frazier)
Bobby Jones - 1 (LABird)
Chris Bosh - 1 (pandrade83)
Tony Parker - 1 (trex_8063)
Mel Daniels - 1 (penbeast0)

~19-20 hours until this one goes to runoff.

Spoiler:

Post #11 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:33 am

Vote: Bobby Jones

I love Jones as a player. To me he seems like one of those guys that just finds a way to be valuable to his team every moment he's on the floor. His low minutes are an issue, but they are the reason why he's not Top 50.

Post #12 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:34 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Vote: Bobby Jones

I love Jones as a player. To me he seems like one of those guys that just finds a way to be valuable to his team every moment he's on the floor. His low minutes are an issue, but they are the reason why he's not Top 50.

Alternate?

iggymcfrack · Post #13 » by **iggymcfrack** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:10 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:Vote 1 - Hal Greer

Vote 2 - Carmelo Anthony

- 15 year career (all with same franchise)
- 7x all NBA 2nd team
- 1 top 10 MVP finish
- Sixers all time leader in games played, minutes played, FGM, total points

Looking at greer, cunningham and carmelo. Also compared them to brand and parker. I came away most impressed with greer’s overall body of work. He had marked consistency throughout his career, along with impressive durability and longevity for his time. He played in 79+ games in 10 of his 15 seasons, which spanned from 59-73. He scored on above average efficiency relative to his era, putting up the following #s from 61-70:

22 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 4.4 APG, 45.4% FG, 80.3% FT (6 FTAs per game), 51% TS, .135 WS/48

He performed similarly in the playoffs, playing a major role in the 67 sixers championship run, commonly considered one of the best teams of all time:

27.7 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 5.3 APG, 42.9% FG, 79.7% FT (7.9 FTAs per game), 48.7% TS (league avg that yr 49.3%), .130 WS/48

"I knew Hal when I got there [as the Sixers' business manager] in '68. I was with him for one year," said Pat Williams, who was raised in Wilmington and later became the Sixers' general manager for 12 seasons. "Tough little bulldog. He was tough as nails. And quiet. Didn't talk much ... but would just go out and perform. Maybe the best middle distance jump shooter of all-time. You could argue that. That 15-, 16-, 17-foot range. It was like a layup to him.”

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4498

It’s been echoed elsewhere that he had the best mid range jumper of his generation. Also effective on both ends of the floor, and could post you up on either baseline. Stayed within the confines of his game, which ultimately led to team success. If he had range out to 17 feet, it stands to reason he would’ve been able to develop a 3 pointer in this era.

Some great videos on the 67 sixers from (I believe) our own Dipper 13:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

More insight on Greer per Dipper 13 (be sure to click spoiler):

Tremendous athlete as well, great agility & quickness and could stop on a dime and pull up. It is not surprising to see Greer fall this low, seeing as he apparently was underrated by most even during his playing days. Not being a self promoter or big interview with the press will do that, plus he was overshadowed by Wilt during some of his best years. I'm sure if the Sixers had repeated in 1968, then Greer would have been voted in well before this point. Wilt even said he was on par with Robertson or West, for what it is worth.

Spoiler:
Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champions - Wayne Lynch

"I think I'm better than the fourth guard," Greer told reporters. "You gotta realize that Oscar is the greatest. Jerry West is right behind Oscar, but I think I should be up there. I think I'm on a par with West.

Dynasty's End: Bill Russell And the 1968-69 World Champion Boston Celtics - Thomas J. Whalen

"Hal needs a certain amount of recognition to show people that he's on par with Robertson and West," All-Star teammate Wilt Chamberlain said afterward.

Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'

The Sun - Nov 16, 1965

It's generally acknowledged in basketball circles that there are three superstar backcourters, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and Sam Jones . . . and then there's Philadelphia's Hal Greer. Greer is the most underrated player in the league. He's among the top five in my opinion. Teammate Al Bianchi adds, "He has to be one of the greatest backcourt shooters ever." He rates with Sharman, Robertson, and West when it comes to hitting the 15-20 foot jumper.

The league alerted everybody about West and Bailey Howell nearing 10,000 points. Forgot Greer of course. "My wife and I talk about it a lot", admits the eight year veteran who climbed over the 10,000 figure with 33 tallies at New York's expense Saturday night. Howell and West reached it Sunday. "I don't like it but what can you do about it. As long as we're winning that's the important thing. The ink is all right but winning is the thing. I think I'm better than the fourth guard in the league."

The Black Athlete: Emergence & Arrival - 1968

No one in basketball is more effective than Hal Greer at sprinting down the middle of the court on a fast break, stopping just beyond the keyhole and scoring on a jump shot. "Hal," said one NBA coach, "has the finest middle-distance shot in the game." From fifteen to eighteen feet, Greer is more deadly than the Big O." At 6 ft. 3 in. and 178 pounds, Greer frequently gives away 40 pounds and 6 inches to NBA adversaries assigned to shutting off the middle. The key to Greer's success, therefore, is maneuverability and speed. Particularly speed.

Great teams of pro basketball - 1971

First there was Hal Greer, one of the best guards in the game. He was fast. "I must be fast," Greer said, "always, always quick. The day I slow down I'm finished." And he was a constant scoring threat. Said his former coach, Dolph Schayes, "Hal has the finest middle-distance shot in the game. From 15 to 18 feet, Hal is more deadly than Oscar Robertson." At 6'2", 175 pounds, Greer was agile, strong and not prone to injury. An eight-year veteran of NBA play, he could be counted on to average 20 points a game and contribute steadily in assists.

The Game Within the Game - Walt Frazier

Hal Greer: Productive, Consistent and Durable

This article originally appeared in the January 2006 issue of Hoop.

Star Guard on a Team for the Ages

Hal Greer made the All-NBA Second Team seven straight years but never was selected to the All-NBA First Team. That’s what happens when you play during the same era as Oscar Robertson and Jerry West, but Greer--a 10-time All-Star who was honored as one of the NBA’s 50 Greatest Players--accomplished something that neither Robertson nor West did: being the leading playoff scorer on a team that defeated Bill Russell’s Boston Celtics in the playoffs and went on to win an NBA championship.

Russell’s Celtics won eight straight titles and 11 in 13 seasons, but many observers still maintain that the greatest single season team in NBA history is the 1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers. The Sixers beat Boston 4-1 in the Eastern Division finals and then defeated the Rick Barry-Nate Thurmond San Francisco Warriors in the NBA Finals. Greer produced 27.7 ppg, 5.9 rpg and 5.3 apg in the playoffs, while his teammate Wilt Chamberlain posted these mind-boggling numbers: 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg and 9.0 apg. Hall of Famer and Top 50 selection Billy Cunningham, the sixth man on the 1967 championship team, says, “Hal Greer was such a smart player. In his mind he had a book about every player he played against and what he had to do to make sure that he got free to get shots. He was probably as fine a screener as a guard as anybody. The thing about it was he knew that if he set a good screen then he would be open because he would force a switch and he would end up being matched up with a bigger, slower player that he knew he could easily beat to get whatever shot he wanted.”

Remember the old shoe commercial with playground legend Lamar Mundane? The voiceover said that Mundane would shoot as soon as he crossed midcourt and the fans would yell, “Layup!” That would be a good way to describe Hal Greer’s top of the key jump shot; Sixers coach Alex Hannum said that Greer made that shot at a 70% clip and gave Greer the green light to launch from that range whenever he was open. Greer’s jump shot was so fluid and so deadly that he shot his free throws that way, connecting on better than 80% of his career attempts. Cunningham offers high praise for Greer’s jump shot: “It was as good as anybody’s who ever played the game. I think the beauty of Hal Greer’s game is that he knew where he was most effective and he never shot the ball from an area where he was not completely confident and comfortable. He never went outside of 18-20 feet maximum, but he was deadly and he had the ability to get to that spot.”

The Palm Beach Post - Apr 2, 1967

"Greer plays the complete game,' said Hannum, "He's an offensive threat every minute he's in there. He has the perfect disposition, is well liked by everybody. We wouldn't have near the record this team has without Hal. You hear about our powerful front line of Wilt, Luke Jackson, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham, but Greer's outside shooting helps make this possible."

Greer admits that the toughest guard in the league against him is Boston's K.C. Jones, but denies the rap placed on him by some writers that he gets "K.C.-itus"

"The three best games of my career have been against Boston," he notes. "I scored 50 points against them my first year in the league, 45 against them here, and 38 this season in Boston."

While he is recognized generally as one of the top offensive players in the game, few people are aware that Greer can play defense with the best. Often, Hannum will send Greer after Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Rick Barry, or Sam Jones, at least until the 76ers' guard gets into foul difficulty.

So I was immediately skeptical of Hal Greer who I never would have thought of at this point when I saw your alternate was Carmelo Anthony. :lol:

Looked up the numbers and wow, I’m much less impressed now. Career-high single season PER of 17.7. Remember this is a stat that’s measured relative to league average and he was facing LOL-60s competition. Also, he’s an inefficient volume scorer who’s exactly the type of player to be overrated by PER. Unless you’re gonna tell me you’d somehow forgot to mention he was the best wing defender in the league I don’t see how you can take him seriously at this spot.

FWIW, Ben Wallace has a better 1-year, 3-year, and 5 year peak by PER, played in a much tougher era, was the best player on a title team, and OH YEAH, was the best defensive player in the entire league during his prime.

iggymcfrack · Post #14 » by **iggymcfrack** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:30 am

Players I’d take over Hal Greer whose last names start with “Gree”:

Draymond Green
Danny Green
AC Green

Post #15 » by **Outside** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:54 pm

Vote: Hal Greer

Very good all-around player who excelled in the PS, highlighted by 27.7 pts, 5.9 reb, and 5.3 ast for the 1967 Philly team that won the title with Wilt, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Walli Jones, and Luke Jackson. His efficiency was good for his era. Highly respected by teammates and opponents.

PER isn't everything.

I'm undecided on an alternate.

Post #16 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:00 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Players I’d take over Hal Greer whose last names start with “Gree”:

Draymond Green
Danny Green
AC Green

I already know your stance on players from that era, so it's not really worth trying to convince you of anything further. My original post speaks for itself. Throwaway lines like this don't really help your case either.

Post #17 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:15 pm

Well, although I'm not ready to support Greer at this stage, I think that's an obvious overly-caustic opinion of him.

Greer, by all accounts, took mostly jump shots; utterly made his living in the mid-range. Rarely shot outside of 20 feet (no 3pt line, so why bother?), but on the flip-side rarely got to the rim. And he shot 45.4% from the field in his prime (45.2% for his career). Just by way of speculating, if we assume only one out of six attempts was at the rim (which might actually be a steep estimate for Greer) and that he made 60% of those shots at the rim (a fair to good, but far from great, finishing rate for a guard; even though he's not remembered as a finisher, that might be a reasonable estimate because one might assume the only attempts he took at the rim were the "better" opportunities---->nothing forced).......if we run with those estimates, that means he hit 42.5% of his other shots (from 3-20+ feet). That's comparable to prime Kobe Bryant ('01-'13 Kobe was 42.8% from 3-23'). If I've substantially over-estimated how often Greer got to the rim, then his mid-range % was actually even better.

One could try to argue but that's against the less athletic defense of the era.
But I could counter, "Yeah, but it's also after being weaned on the obviously flawed shot mechanics of the time period, as well as contending with the utterly jammed paint area (as it pertains to many shots inside of 15')."

He was also a career 80.1% FT% in an era where average was usually around 73% or so, fwiw.

So any way it's sliced, Greer was [and is in any era] an excellent shooter, whose range is likely to extend if there was any motivation to do so (e.g. a 3pt line).

Decent rebounder for his size (OK for his position overall: anywhere from 5.2 up to 7.2 rebs/100 possessions in his prime), fair/decent (but not great) passing and playmaking SG.
Had a 15-year durable career----at least a "useful" player up until his final injury-hit year----and a 9-year prime (in which he missed just 20 games; missed only 33 games total in his first 14 seasons). Was collectively over a 9-year prime a 16.7 PER and .139 WS/48 player, which doesn't sound super-impressive, though two considerations: 1) this while averaging >38 mpg (rate metrics after all) over that span; and 2) bearing in mind this era had not yet undergone all the rule changes and metamorphosis designed to promote perimeter play (e.g. loosening of ball-handling restrictions, better spacing and open driving lanes, curbing of hand-checking, 3pt line, etc); it was still very much a "big-dominated" sport. Greer was at worst the 4th-best guard of his generation (10-Time All-Star, 7-Time All-NBA 2nd Team, once finished 6th in MVP shares).

By most accounts he was a solid defensive player, too (not accounted for in above metrics). Exemplar teammate, who appears to have a humble and team-oriented disposition.

But he's only 6'2" (in socks; era-related perinatal nutrition and/or smokers stunting his growth at all???) and 175 lbs (in an era when weight training was discouraged, ESPECIALLY for shooters)......you can't be a SG in the NBA at that size anymore.
Lou Williams, Avery Bradley, Joe Dumars, Andrew Toney, Jerryd Bayless, Ian Clark, etc (Danny Ainge, Victor Oladipo, Dion Waiters, Eric Gordon not far off) all say hi.

Does that equate to a top 75 career with all things considered? Well, I personally don't think so, but it's far from an absurd suggestion. It's certainly less absurd than suggesting Danny Green has had a better career.

Post #18 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:37 pm

Outside wrote:Vote: Hal Greer

Very good all-around player who excelled in the PS, highlighted by 27.7 pts, 5.9 reb, and 5.3 ast for the 1967 Philly team that won the title with Wilt, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Walli Jones, and Luke Jackson. His efficiency was good for his era. Highly respected by teammates and opponents.

PER isn't everything.

I'm undecided on an alternate.

To be fair, as Trex said, he rarely went to the line and if you look at the competition, it's fairer to say his (RS) efficiency was average for his period. He did have a strong defensive rep and was a guy you could count on to be very good every year for a long time.

iggymcfrack · Post #19 » by **iggymcfrack** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:43 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Does that equate to a top 75 career with all things considered? Well, I personally don't think so, but it's far from an absurd suggestion. It's certainly less absurd than suggesting Danny Green has had a better career.

Not really. Danny Green’s put up RPMs of +3.51, +5.41, +3.25, and +1.26 for full seasons. He’s consistently been a major impact player. He’s also consistently upped his game in the playoffs unlike Greer who got worse.

Now, can we really say Greer was an impact player that moved the needle at all? When his role is purely volume scorer and he has a career PER of 15.7? When in the 22 paragraph case for him, his defense is never mentioned other than in a quote from himself?

He just kinda seems like a Carmelo Anthony of his day. Someone who scored a lot of points but didn’t do it at very good efficiency or get other people involved or do anything else on the basketball court to help you win games. Well except that Melo was much better at being a volume scorer and had 11 seasons with a PER better than Greer’s best.

FWIW, this isn’t just about era at all. My alternate vote right now if I was still in the project would be for Bobby Jones and he was almost a contemporary of Greer’s. He also started his career out in the ABA which was weaker than the NBA several of Greer’s seasons. He just actually had things that he excelled at (defense and efficiency) whereas Greer didn’t really excel at anything except getting points credited to him in the box score.

Post #20 » by **Outside** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:01 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Outside wrote:Vote: Hal Greer

Very good all-around player who excelled in the PS, highlighted by 27.7 pts, 5.9 reb, and 5.3 ast for the 1967 Philly team that won the title with Wilt, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham, Walli Jones, and Luke Jackson. His efficiency was good for his era. Highly respected by teammates and opponents.

PER isn't everything.

I'm undecided on an alternate.

To be fair, as Trex said, he rarely went to the line and if you look at the competition, it's fairer to say his (RS) efficiency was average for his period. He did have a strong defensive rep and was a guy you could count on to be very good every year for a long time.

I'd say that's true. Perhaps a better way to discuss his efficiency is to compare him to Sam Jones, who was a roughly similar player. Their RS TS% were basically the same (50.6 Greer vs 50.3 Jones), Greer's PS TS% was slightly less (49.1 vs 50.1 for Jones). Greer's scoring production (19.2 RS career average and high of 24.1, 20.4 PS average and high of 27.7) is comparable or slightly better than Jones (17.7 RS career average and high of 25.9, 18.9 PS average and high of 28.6).

Greer also has better stats in other areas.
RS career 5.0 reb, 4.0 ast, highs of 7.4 reb, 5.1 ast
PS career 5.5 reb, 4.3 ast, highs of 7.4 reb, 6.0 ast

Jones
RS career 4.9 reb 2.5 ast, highs of 6.0 reb 3.2 ast
PS career 4.7 reb 2.3 ast, highs of 7.1 reb 3.0 ast

I do recall Greer as being the better playmaker of the two.