RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 (Chet Walker)

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RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 (Chet Walker) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:43 pm

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Kevin Durant
29. Stephen Curry
30. Scottie Pippen
31. John Havlicek
32. Elgin Baylor
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Rick Barry
35. Gary Payton
36. Artis Gilmore
37. Jason Kidd
38. Walt Frazier
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Kevin McHale
41. George Gervin
42. Reggie Miller
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dwight Howard
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Bob Cousy
47. Ray Allen
48. Pau Gasol
49. Wes Unseld
50. Robert Parish
51. Russell Westbrook
52. Alonzo Mourning
53. Dikembe Mutombo
54. Manu Ginobili
55. Chauncey Billups
56. Willis Reed
57. Bob Lanier
58. Allen Iverson
59. Adrian Dantley
60. Dave Cowens
61. Elvin Hayes
62. Dominique Wilkins
63. Vince Carter
64. Alex English
65. Tracy McGrady
66. James Harden
67. Nate Thurmond
68. Sam Jones
69. Kevin Johnson
70. Bob McAdoo
71. Sidney Moncrief
72. Paul Arizin
73. Grant Hill
74. Bobby Jones
75. Chris Bosh
76. Tony Parker
77. Shawn Marion
78. Hal Greer
79. Ben Wallace
80. Dan Issel
81. Larry Nance
82. James Worthy
83. Chris Webber
84. Rasheed Wallace
85. Dennis Rodman
86. Horace Grant
87. Elton Brand
88. Terry Porter
89. Maurice Cheeks
90. Carmelo Anthony
91. Tim Hardaway
92. Jack Sikma
93. Billy Cunningham
94. Mookie Blaylock
95. ??

Go.

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#2 » by trex_8063 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:18 pm

(edited new for #95 thread)
1st vote: [tentatively going with] Chet Walker
Not 100% set on this; may decide to switch back to Kawhi for this spot. But Walker represents a decent-length (and durable) career of providing high(ish) volume scoring on good efficiency [mostly with his devastatingly accurate mid-range game--->in his final 10 seasons he was collectively 47.8% FG's despite the VAST majority of those shots coming in the mid-range; that's elite in any era]; also a respectable rebounding SF, and his reputation of sound defense [and a touch versatile: I noted in a game from '75 I recently watched Walker was guarding the opposing PF], and being core member of one of the greatest title teams ever, etc, makes him a solid candidate here.
Teams in Chicago had somewhat underwhelming playoff success, but to be fair: the playoff structure at the time was weird, and a high seeding didn't always get you an easy first round match-up.
His list of accolades/awards perhaps marginally undersells how good he was, especially looking at a season like '72, for example.

I'm sorta on the fence between him and Kawhi, but will go with this order for now.


2nd vote: Kawhi Leonard
Longevity lacking, but aside from Bill Walton, he's the highest peak left on the table. He was a solid role player right out of the gate in his rookie year and a borderline All-Star by his 2nd season; only got better from there. In fact, aside from Walton, Kawhi's got TWO seasons that are better than any one peak year of anyone left on the table, imo.
He's been scoring elite level volume on elite level efficiency, and ultra-elite level turnover economy (in light of combined scoring and playmaking). Add to that decent rebounding from the SF position and his defensive presence (2-time DPOY) and some big-time playoff performances.........well, his six seasons seem like plenty to award him a spot on the list.

I feel like public opinion was more in his corner a year ago, so not sure if the present season is influencing people here.
penbeast mentioned (though later rescinded) a comment about the Spurs not skipping a beat without him, and I wonder if that's a [mistaken] view that's hurting him here. But the Spurs are hurting this year relative to last season. As I mentioned previously, Gasol, Parker, and Ginobili are all a year further into decline, and they got rid of Dedmon and Jonathan Simmons. But otoh, some of their young talents have made great strides this season (notably Kyle Anderson, Dejonte Murray, and Bryn Forbes), and they obtained Rudy Gay (though he's missed some games) and Joffrey Lauvergne to fill the void left by those changes (simply upping Patty Mills' minutes has largely replaced Parker's decline, too).
So the dip we're seeing by the Spurs this year is [imho] largely a result of Kawhi basically missing the whole season thus far.

And perhaps it's because the Spurs are still 4th in the West that people don't realize how far they've fallen; but they have come down quite a ways: last year they won 61 games and had a +7.13 SRS; this year they're on pace for about 48 or so wins and are a +2.71 SRS. A 4.42 drop in SRS is nothing to sneeze at, especially when we consider that's ceiling raising, not floor-raising.


And it really shouldn't be surprising looking at the quality of player Kawhi's been in each of the last two seasons: collectively in '16-'17 he was a 26.8 PER, .270 WS/48, +8.1 BPM, +22 efficiency differential in 33.2 mpg. Was 4th in the league in PI RAPM last year (behind only Lebron, Curry, and -0.01 behind Draymond), and 6th in the league [in both PI and NPI] in '16 (behind Lebron, Curry, Draymond, CP3, and Durant). By all measures available, he was one of the very best players in the game (during a very top-heavy era, I might add).


Other guys I'd be at least semi-comfortable with include Walt Bellamy, Dave DeBusschere, Joe Dumars, Shawn Kemp, Vlade Divac, Marques Johnson, George McGinnis, and yes pen----even Mel Daniels. Guys like Jeff Hornacek, Cliff Hagan, Jerry Lucas, Dennis Johnson, Neil Johnston all worth mentions (or potentially even traction) here, too [imo].
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#3 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:46 pm

Vote 1 - Tiny Archibald

Vote 2 - Chet Walker

- 13 year career
- 5x All NBA (3 1st, 2 2nd)
- 2 top 5 and 3 top 10 MVP finishes
- Only player to ever lead league in scoring and assists (per 100 he still measures as elite, especially for his era)

His ability to get to the line was pretty special for someone his size. He has a career FT rate of .456 with 5 seasons over .500. His prime basically lasted 6 seasons, but he was highly productive and efficient:

Per game: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/architi01.html#1972-1977-sum:per_game

Advanced: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/architi01.html#1972-1977-sum:advanced

The lack of playoff success before Boston leaves something to be desired, but he wasn’t exactly on teams rich with talent, either. He was an important piece for the celtics for a few seasons, and played a big role in their 81 title run. His transition into that role post prime / injury is impressive to me.

Even though we should take anecdotal commentary on players with a grain of salt, i always find it rewarding to look back at them for players before my time. In clips from the Sports Illustrated article below, we see a dominant guard who was a precursor to the plethora of drive and kick PGs we see in the NBA today.

Archibald was one of the smallest players to come into the NBA in years, being listed at a bit over six feet and weighing about 150 pounds. He had speed, but the trend was to big guards. The first time that Cincinnati Coach Bob Cousy and General Manager Joe Axel-son met Archibald at a Memphis motel they mistook him for a bellboy. Now Cousy says he might quit the Kings—the team was renamed upon being shifted to Kansas City-Omaha last year—if he ever were to lose Archibald.

- - - - -

[Former teammate Norm Van Lier] “The brother's mean, man. He comes to play every day and he does it to death. I don't believe there is anything he can't do, and his moves are inexhaustible. He'll stand out there 25 to 30 feet away from the basket dribbling. It looks so easy to go up and take the ball away, right? Wrong. Nate's just baiting you. He wants you to make a move for the ball because when you do, you're all his."

"Nate's one of the most unselfish players in the game," says Chicago's Bob Love. "I've seen him go a whole quarter without shooting, and he still killed us whistling those passes in underneath. The fact he led the league in assists explains his unselfishness. If anything, he's underrated."

- - - - -

Archibald's style has altered the order of the NBA. Once the behemoths were the intimidators; now they find themselves helpless as Archibald bears in on them. "I feel like I can draw a foul most every time," he says. "You would think that the big man has an advantage, but I would say I have it, because he has his arms up high and he has to come down on you. I get shots blocked, but not very often, because I don't just shoot a layup. I go right at the big man and make him commit himself, then I make my move." Nowadays many of the league's top teams have a small guard.

"Nate has added an extra dimension to the game," says Portland Guard Charlie Davis. "Cousy and them could clear out the ball, pass it, but there's never been one like Nate who could set those dudes up, score and pass." Says Jerry West, "He looks like a high school kid and plays like a superstar. One step and he's at full speed and gone." When asked if Archibald's "dominance" of the ball could hurt Kansas City, Oscar Robertson looked incredulous, then responded drily, "The only way his style could hurt them is if he played against them.”


https://www.si.com/vault/1973/10/15/618390/tiny-does-very-big-things

Highlights (music NSFW):

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:46 pm

Vote: Mel Daniels
Alternate: Jerry Lucas (Sharman, Howell, Beaty, Dumars, or one of the SFs if someone can compare Connie Hawkins, Chet Walker, Marques Johnson, Kawhi Leonard)


Why Mel Daniels? It may be winner's bias, but when I see a team win multiple championships, I tend to look more closely at the makeup of the teams to see WHY they are winning. I don't automatically value big minute contributors to championships, I have been down on Bob Cousy's role on those Celtic titles for example. However, I do value the championships a lot and how a team got there. Indiana was the Boston Celtics of the ABA. They didn't have nearly the big name stars of Kentucky (Gilmore, Issel, Dampier), New York (Erving, Kenon), or even San Antonio (Gervin, Silas, Paultz) but they won the most and the most consistently. Breaking those teams down, Slick Leonard was a competent coach but had little success elsewhere and wasn't that highly regarded for either his game management or his player development. Their guards were pretty weak. Freddie Lewis a below average PG, not much of a distributor and only an average shooter and defender, while their 2 guards changed regularly and were unimpressive. Roger Brown at SF was a nice scorer with good range, great handles, and enough variety that his nickname was "the man of a thousand moves." He was definitely a key factor but he didn't play much defense or add much rebounding or playmaking. The PF were Bob Netolicky (the self proclaimed Joe Namath of the ABA) who was another excellent scorer and decent rebounder with no interest in defense then they replaced him with George McGinnis, another volume scorer (less efficient) and a great rebounder who generated a lot of assists, and turnovers. But for me, looking at this franchise's success, it was all built around Mel Daniels in the middle. A good scorer (consistently close to 20 a game on above average efficiency), great rebounder (usually among top in league), and powerful defender (better positionally than in help defense) who set the tone of the team and acted as their enforcer. His career was short and corresponds almost exactly with the rise and fall of the Pacers as a force in the ABA (his rookie year, he apparently shot a lot of long jump shots and had poor efficiency for Minnesota, which Leonard immediately banned when he came to Indiana).


Mel Daniels is certainly the only multiple MVP winner left. Nobody else changed or dominanted on both ends to the same degree for more than 1-1.5 years (Walton, Hawkins). Daniels was the best player on two championship teams plus a willing support role on a third championship though in a weak league (probably better than the pre-Russell 50s though). I tend to value defense, particularly for big men, and Mel was basically the original Alonzo Mourning with more rebounding but less shotblocking or, to use dhsilv2's comp, Moses Malone (without the longevity of course). He was a 1st round NBA pick (the first to sign with the ABA) and in the NBA would probably have been one of the best centers as well, not in the Jabbar league, but contending with Unseld/Cowens for the rebounding leaderboard and 2nd team All-Defense with good scoring (but poor playmaking). The two MVPs show he was valued above his box scores.

It is reasonable to compare Daniels to Kawhi Leonard as they have similar length of career by now. Kawhi brings excellent wing defense early on, but Daniels was probably more impactful defensively as intimidating defensive centers tend to be (especially in the 20th century). Kawhi's defense is still good and his scoring has blown up, a clearly better option than Daniels; also clearly a better passer. Daniels brings rebounding and toughness at a level equal to guys like Wes Unseld or Dave Cowens who are already in from his era (other league). I think the impact Daniels brought was appreciably higher in his league than that Kawhi has in the current league, enough to overcome the much weaker league he played in. Connie Hawkins would be another early ABA guy, higher peak than Daniels, shorter career though he did have a 1st team All-NBA between his first and second major knee injury. More of a career than Walton, less than Daniels. With careers this short, the difference is magnified. Of the bunch, I rate Daniels the highest.

Lucas, early Kevin Love type that played a long career. Announcers used to call 20-25 footers, "Lucas Layups," as the Royals would station him outside to let Oscar bully people in the paint. Great rebounder, super smart, comes across as a bit of a "rain man" type with his memorizing phone books and needing to know his exact stats. Played well as a role player on the Knicks post prime.

Getting mentioned by position:
PG DJ, Archibald
SG Sharman, Dumars, Lou Hudson, Richmond, Hornacek
SF Chet Walker, Kawhi, Marques Johnson, Bernard King, Wilkes, Dandridge, Mullin, Hagan
PF Amare, Connie Hawkins, Bailey Howell, Paul Silas, Kemp, McGinnis, Jerry Lucas, Buck Williams, DeBusshcere
C Mel Daniels, Mark Gasol, Bellamy, Yao. Divac, Zelmo, Johnston
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#5 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:05 pm

Chet (compelling arguments being made), Vlade, Tiny, and I could see Leonard here. Then we have Sharman, Dumars (fell he should make it), and perhaps DJ. Laimbeer I can justify leaving out based on his cheap foul reputation, but I need something with 5 spots left.

I feel feel Tiny and Dumars need to be in just based on legacy, but I'm not ready to vote Dumars either.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#6 » by trex_8063 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:15 pm

Chet Walker vs Jerry Lucas

I'll start with the broad strokes of comparing their respective box-based rate metrics.

Career Lucas: 18.9 PER, .147 WS/48 in 38.8 mpg
Career Walker: 17.6 PER, .168 WS/48 in 32.4 mpg

Worth noting that Lucas's career was just 11 seasons (Walker's 13). If we look only at Walker's best 11-year stretch ('65-'75) to make it a bit more apples to apples, we see Walker was an 18.0 PER, .178 WS/48 in 32.6 mpg.......he then has two other fair/decent role player years to add to that (and fwiw, Lucas missed 66 total rs games in 11 years; whereas Walker missed just 25 games in 13 years).

In terms of career WS, Walker edges him by a sound margin (117.4 to 98.4 in the rs, 10.3 to 4.9 in the ps).


Let's break it down a tiny bit more......

Both were efficient scorers: Jerry Lucas was a career +4.73% rTS in the rs, +1.58% rTS in the ps. Walker was a career +4.33% rTS in rs, +2.57% rTS in ps. So basically the same in shooting efficiency.....but Walker on significantly more volume---->23.75 pts/100 poss in the rs, 22.1 pts/100 poss in the ps (Lucas averaged 18.4 pts/100 poss in the rs, 16.2 pts/100 poss in the ps).
Granted, Lucas was playing bigger mpg; but even in terms of pts/game, Lucas had a career rate of 17.0 ppg in the rs, 12.4 ppg in the ps; Walker averaged 18.2 ppg in both the rs and ps for his career (18.9 in rs and 18.4 in ps if looking only at his final 11 seasons).
Lucas does provide some added benefit as a floor-spreading big, though. Would be more worthwhile in the 3pt era, but still noteworthy even in the 60s/70s.

Lucas averaged significantly more rebounds (basically double). Some of that is positional expectation (PF/C should be getting more boards than a SF). There's also the [somewhat speculative] concern I brought up wrt Lucas's rebounding, which he himself hinted at in an interview (I can locate and link the video of said interview if needed): talking about how he'd memorize shot trajectories to know where the carom would go--->sort of hinting that he chased rebounds as opposed to the more fundamentally sound practice of boxing out. I only bring that up because chasing/cannibalizing boards is a hallmark trait of bigs whose impact on the team rebounding rate is underwhelming relative to their individual numbers. Derive from that what you will.

I think Lucas was at least a little better passer/distributor, which is perhaps marginally more impressive than the averages alone indicate, given he was a PF (or PF/C) while Walker was primarily a wing.

Defensively, Lucas's reputation is lacking. Walker's is not (he even garnered praise from people like Alex Hannum). I'll leave it at that.


So overall we're looking at Lucas being the better passer/distributor and better rebounder (though with concerns/question marks wrt how well his individual rebounding translated to good team rebounding), and an added bonus for being a floor-spacer; Walker is the superior overall scorer and defensive player. Walker also had the longer and more durable/consistent career.

And in terms of impact, unfortunately all we have to go by is WOWY-based data. I'll provide some details on the shift seen in the W/L column (occasionally SRS, too), and also site Elgee's regressed WOWY (which used pt differential, though excludes certain games/players)......

Lucas WOWY
‘63 (before Lucas): 42-38 (.525), +1.24 SRS
‘64 (rookie Lucas added): 54-25 (.684) with, 1-0 without; +4.43 SRS overall
‘65: 41-25 (.621) with, 7-7 (.500) without; +2.04 SRS overall
‘66 (Twyman gone): 44-35 (.557) with, 1-0 without; +1.03 SRS overall
‘67 (Embry gone): 39-42 (.481) with; -0.23 SRS overall
‘68 (Hairston gone): 39-43 (.476) with; -0.64 SRS overall
‘69: 36-38 (.486) with, 5-3 (.625) without; -0.83 SRS overall
‘70 (Lucas traded to Warriors early in year): Royals 1-4 prior to trade----1-3 (.250) in games he played, 0-1 without----35-42 (.455) after trade. Warriors 3-1 (.750) before the trade, 27-51 (.346) after the trade [19-44 (.302) with him, 8-7 (.533) without him].
‘71: 40-40 (.500) with, 1-1 (.500) without
Lucas traded to New York.
‘72: Warriors (without Lucas) go 51-31 (.622). New York in ‘71 had gone 52-30 (.634). In ‘72, Knicks are 45-32 (.584) with him, 3-2 (.600) without him.
‘73: 48-23 (.676) with, 9-2 (.818) without him
‘74: 45-28 (.616) with, 4-5 (.444) without him

Prime WOWYR: 0
Career WOWYR: -0.6


Walker WOWY
‘62 (before Walker): 41-39 (.513)
‘63 (rookie Walker added, though Costello also active for 15 extra games relative to ‘62; on the flip-side Schayes is fastly declining): 48-32 (.600), 47-30 (.610) with, 1-2 (.333) without
‘64: 32-44 (.421) with, 2-2 (.500) without
‘65: 40-39 (.506) with, 0-1 without
‘66: 55-25 (.688) with
‘67: 68-13 (.852) with
‘68: 62-80 (.756) with
‘69: 55-27 (.671) with
‘70 Sixers (Walker gone; Luke Jackson also misses much of season): 42-40 (-13 wins from previous year)
‘69 Bulls (before Walker): 33-49 (.402) (-6 wins compared to first year with Walker)
‘70: 36-42 (.462) with, 3-1 (.750) without
‘71: 50-31 (.617) with, 1-0 without
‘72: 53-25 (.679) with, 4-0 without
‘73: 50-29 (.633) with, 1-2 (.333) without
‘74: 54-28 (.659) with
‘75: 45-31 (.592) with, 2-4 (.333) without
‘76 Bulls (Walker gone, though also lost aging Nate Thurmond for most of year): 24-58 (.293) (-23 wins)

Prime WOWYR: +1.9
Career WOWYR: +2.0


Seems to be a small but clear edge to Walker in terms of impact based on the limited information available.
For myself, I think all of the above collectively illuminates a small but distinct edge to Chet Walker.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#7 » by pandrade83 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:51 am

Primary Vote: Bill Walton
Alternate: Kawhi


Synopsis of argument: Bill Walton has a Top 15 peak in '77 but he has more years of value besides that. He has impact in '76, '84-'86 & won MVP in '78 with Portland on pace for a win total that would've put them in consideration for team of the decade if not for injury. The years people don't think of when they think of him ('76, '84-'86) are very high impact, low minute years.


I think we all understand Bill Walton's peak. But it's another to see it.



Walton finished 13th in the most recent RGM Peaks project - the next 10 players behind him:

Julius Erving
Oscar Robertson
Dwayne Wade
Steph Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Jerry West
Kevin Durant
Patrick Ewing
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant

That's quite a list of people to be ahead of - and so we have to keep that value in mind.

The most common rebuttal I'm going to hear is "That's great, but it is just the one year."

But if you dig deeper, you see he offers more value than "just the one year". It's certainly problematic to my case that these years are not going to be consecutive, but let's look at years where I think he offered some meaningful value. I'm going to omit '77 from this because we're all familiar with it.

'76 - Portland goes 26-25 with; 11-20 without. Even though Walton isn't yet the defensive force he'd become, Portland is 6th in DRtg. Walton averages 16.1 pts-13.4 reb-4.3 assists + 1.6 blocks. He does this despite logging just 33 mpg. He was healthy at the end of the year so it's likely he could have played in the playoffs.
'78 - Portland goes 48-10 with; 10-14 without! That's the difference between a 68 win pace & a 34 win pace. Walton is the anchor of a super team - and this is after the merger. Walton wins MVP and the impact on winning is quite pronounced. Walton averages 19-13-5-2.5 blocks this year on 52% shooting. It's unfortunate that the injury robs him of what otherwise would have likely been a Portland title - but this year is impactful for the regular season.

In '84 & '85, Walton plays 75% of the games for the Clippers. It's not well remembered but he's still effective - even the limited clips we have of that time support it.



From a scouting standpoint, Walton still possesses stellar passing capabilities & excellent rim protection. You'll see that his ability to get up & down the court is diminished considerably - his quickness isn't as strong as the Portland tape, but he's still an effective player. The diminished mobility robs him of some defensive impact - but while on court he's impactful.

In '84 the Clippers are 23-32 with, 7-20 without - a 34 win pace with & 21 win pace without. Walton is a 12-9-3 player plus nearly 2 blocks per game in just 26 mpg with a TS% of 57%.
In '85 it's a similar story - the Clippers are a 33 win pace team with Walton & a 22 win pace team without.

Then in '86 he joins Boston and becomes a key member of one of the teams in the GOAT discussion.

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His playing time is limited - just 19 mpg - but the rate statistics are impressive: 14-13-4-2.5 blocks on 61% TS.

All told, he has what this board determines is the 13th best peak, plus 5 more strong impact - if limited minute years.

It's not just the magical '77 campaign.

I mentioned at the top if we get to slot 96 and Mookie isn't in that I'm going to flip it and here's why - and this is how I'll wrap up.

Pretend that you have a full business day to cover the history of professional basketball with an alien. What topics would you cover? What names would you mention?

Go through our list starting at around slot #65. Do those guys get covered? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I promise you that Bill Walton gets discussed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think Kawhi has lost some luster because of what's happened this year but if I'm putting Walton up here, it would be inconsistent of me not to put Kawhi right after him.

Some of the reasons I'm advocating for Kawhi:

-The Spurs went from a +7 in SRS to +2.7 without him. That's a drop-off equivalent from contender to 1st/2nd round exit level exit. LMA has had a resurgent year & Kyle Anderson, Murray have emerged to off-set the further decline of Parker, Manu & Pau.
-Best peak - non-Walton category left. Robust box score metrics are augmented with 3 straight Top 5 finishes in RPM - indicating that it's not a fluke and that he is extremely impactful within the Spurs system.
-Won a FMVP in a Finals that included: Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Tim Duncan, Tony Parker & Manu.
-Has now been the best player on a team that had SRS ranging from +6.2 to +10.3.

In case you forgot since he's been out this year . . .

The guy can play.



I understand that the longevity is lacking, but you either get guys who were very good - but definitely not great for a long time - or you get guys who really moved the needle in a big way over a short duration.



I'd rather have the former.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#8 » by trex_8063 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:24 pm

Thru post #7:

Tiny Archibald - 1 (Clyde Frazier)
Bill Walton - 1 (pandrade83)
Chet Walker - 1 (trex_8063)
Mel Daniels - 1 (penbeast0)


About 24-25 hours until runoff.


Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

[quote=”HeartBreakKid"].[/quote]
Clyde Frazier wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

Colbinii wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dr Spaceman wrote:.

fpliii wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

pandrade83 wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

SactoKingsFan wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

JordansBulls wrote:.

RSCS3_ wrote:.

BasketballFan7 wrote:.

micahclay wrote:.

ardee wrote:.

RCM88x wrote:.

Tesla wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:.

kayess wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

MisterHibachi wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

mischievous wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Bad Gatorade wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Cyrusman122000 wrote:.

Winsome Gerbil wrote:.

Narigo wrote:.

wojoaderge wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.

Outside wrote:.

scabbarista wrote:.

janmagn wrote:.

Arman_tanzarian wrote:.

oldschooled wrote:.

Pablo Novi wrote:.

john248 wrote:.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:.

Senior wrote:.

twolves97 wrote:.

CodeBreaker wrote:.

dhsilv2 wrote:.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#9 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:46 pm

Recap of walton’s career

75 - 35 games played
76 - 51 games played
77 - 65 games (championship season)
78 - 58 games (only played in 2 games of 6 game series loss to sonics)

This is where walton’s career as a star basically ends. It essentially lasted 3 seasons (76-78), where he still missed an average of 24 games per season and part of one postseason. If you want to include his rookie year, that comes out to 29.75 games missed per season.

79 - missed entire season
80 - 14 games played
81 - missed entire season
82 - missed entire season
83 - 33 games played
84 - 55 games played

6 seasons later, he briefly plays close to 2 full seasons:

85 - 67 games played
86 - 80 games played (good role player on celtics championship run)
87 - 10 games played

Do I feel bad for Walton the person who clearly had to endure a career where he spent more time recovering from injury than they actually did on the court? Of course, but i’m not impressed by a guy who couldn’t consistently contribute to his team even in a lesser role.

And yes, that’s why we did the peaks project — to recognize all time great single seasons, not careers. That’s where walton deservedly shines.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#10 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:15 pm

[Not changing my votes, just to clarify]

Ugh, forgot about mullin as someone i was hoping to get in before the project ended…

Take a look at him for anyone who isn’t really familiar: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mullich01.html

Decently long prime with a 5 season run in the middle that’s on a very high level. Transitioned into an effective role player for the pacers at the end of his career. One of the most lethal offensive players when he was at his best.

Hurts as a fan that there are probably a good 15-20 guys who have an argument for these last 6 spots :-?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#11 » by pandrade83 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:24 pm

So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#12 » by trex_8063 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:42 pm

pandrade83 wrote:So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.


Fair enough, and fwiw I agree they add a little value. But not enough to make a HUGE difference in his career value. imo, those two seasons [each] are worth roughly what Kawhi Leonard's rookie year is worth (that is: collectively worth ~2x Kawhi's rookie season); they're LESS than what Kawhi's first two seasons would be worth, imo.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#13 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:05 pm

pandrade83 wrote:So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.


EDIT - Got my seasons mixed up. The season in which he played in 55 games is still a third of the season missed, so i wouldn’t call that “reasonably healthy”. In the following season where he played 67, that’s getting closer, but we’re talking bare minimums for a “healthy” season here. The one knock on anthony davis, for example is that he didn’t crack 70+ games played until his 5th season.

Also, throughout the project we really haven’t seen players get lauded for their teams being on a 30-35 win pace when they played. At best, they’re considered neutral years based on a poor supporting cast, and at worst highly ridiculed for those win totals.

Not to mention at least part of the reason the clippers were terrible was because walton missed so many games during those seasons. His durability is all time level bad. This cannot be overstated.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#14 » by Owly » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:24 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.


I don’t know how you can paint 2 seasons where he played in 33 and 55 games respectively as “reasonably healthy”. Even in the 55 game season, that’s a third of the season missed.


Also, throughout the project we really haven’t seen players get lauded for their teams being on a 30-35 win pace when they played. At best, they’re considered neutral years based on a poor supporting cast, and at worst highly ridiculed for those win totals.

Not to mention at least part of the reason the clippers were terrible was because walton missed so many games during those seasons. His durability is all time level bad. This cannot be overstated.

To be fair, you're not looking at the season's cited, his final two on the Clippers, which were '84 (which is the 55 game season) and '85 (in which he played 67). I guess the confusion may have come from the way Clyde split up his seasons?

Even so he's combining for 3123 minutes over that span.

And the notional 10 win impact (on a bad team) is I think based on low replacement level. My first-glance guess is his minutes were going primarily to Harvey Catchings (Donaldson already being mostly a starter) who was never great (or good enough to start), had been injured late in the prior season (don't know the severity but a knee injury kept him out for the first 9 games of the '84 playoffs), and was in what transpired to be his final season in the NBA. Now I'm not fully confident in this (and Walton was playing half games so a circa 10 win impact - albeit on crummy team - still wouldn't be nothing, if this is an accurate representation of his impact - though he can't really scale up the minutes) but I would say there's probably a low replacement level bar there contributing somewhat.


Fwiw, Walton didn't technically retire until 1990, up to that point he was working towards another comeback. Also, for '88, he was on the Celtics payroll, so if, like Penbeast, you're factoring in salary he's a small negative there (though not like earlier years when being payed like a superstar).
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#15 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:45 pm

Owly wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.


I don’t know how you can paint 2 seasons where he played in 33 and 55 games respectively as “reasonably healthy”. Even in the 55 game season, that’s a third of the season missed.


Also, throughout the project we really haven’t seen players get lauded for their teams being on a 30-35 win pace when they played. At best, they’re considered neutral years based on a poor supporting cast, and at worst highly ridiculed for those win totals.

Not to mention at least part of the reason the clippers were terrible was because walton missed so many games during those seasons. His durability is all time level bad. This cannot be overstated.

To be fair, you're not looking at the season's cited, his final two on the Clippers, which were '84 (which is the 55 game season) and '85 (in which he played 67). I guess the confusion may have come from the way Clyde split up his seasons?

Even so he's combining for 3123 minutes over that span.

And the notional 10 win impact (on a bad team) is I think based on low replacement level. My first-glance guess is his minutes were going primarily to Harvey Catchings (Donaldson already being mostly a starter) who was never great (or good enough to start), had been injured late in the prior season (don't know the severity but a knee injury kept him out for the first 9 games of the '84 playoffs), and was in what transpired to be his final season in the NBA. Now I'm not fully confident in this (and Walton was playing half games so a circa 10 win impact - albeit on crummy team - still wouldn't be nothing, if this is an accurate representation of his impact - though he can't really scale up the minutes) but I would say there's probably a low replacement level bar there contributing somewhat.


Fwiw, Walton didn't technically retire until 1990, up to that point he was working towards another comeback. Also, for '88, he was on the Celtics payroll, so if, like Penbeast, you're factoring in salary he's a small negative there (though not like earlier years when being payed like a superstar).


Yup, my mistake. I glanced too quickly at “SDC” for the 2 seasons, missing the following 67 game “LAC” season. However, my stance doesn’t really change as I wouldn’t consider a 55 game season to be “reasonably healthy”, and 67 games played is obviously better, but still only approaches a full season of play.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#16 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:34 pm

Is it worth discussing the impact on a team to have a player who is constantly hurt? Isn't that as big a problem (all be it not the person hurt's fault) as some of the trouble makers we've discussed?

And I've tried to get more discussion, but if Walton was an introvert and not really a "leader" I would imagine this means the team didn't at least benefit from having him on the bench to cheer them on or as a leader of some kind. I struggle with this as I've just not heard much discussion on it, but I just can't imagine this was easy on teammates.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#17 » by trex_8063 » Thu Mar 1, 2018 12:25 am

Thru post #16:

Tiny Archibald - 1 (Clyde Frazier)
Bill Walton - 1 (pandrade83)
Chet Walker - 1 (trex_8063)
Mel Daniels - 1 (penbeast0)


Hoping to get some better turnout, so this is the final notice. About 15 hours until runoff.

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

[quote=”HeartBreakKid"].[/quote]
Clyde Frazier wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

Colbinii wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dr Spaceman wrote:.

fpliii wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

pandrade83 wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

SactoKingsFan wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

JordansBulls wrote:.

RSCS3_ wrote:.

BasketballFan7 wrote:.

micahclay wrote:.

ardee wrote:.

RCM88x wrote:.

Tesla wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:.

kayess wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

MisterHibachi wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

mischievous wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Bad Gatorade wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Cyrusman122000 wrote:.

Winsome Gerbil wrote:.

Narigo wrote:.

wojoaderge wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.

Outside wrote:.

scabbarista wrote:.

janmagn wrote:.

Arman_tanzarian wrote:.

oldschooled wrote:.

Pablo Novi wrote:.

john248 wrote:.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:.

Senior wrote:.

twolves97 wrote:.

CodeBreaker wrote:.

dhsilv2 wrote:.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#18 » by trex_8063 » Thu Mar 1, 2018 1:10 am

dhsilv2 wrote:Is it worth discussing the impact on a team to have a player who is constantly hurt? Isn't that as big a problem (all be it not the person hurt's fault) as some of the trouble makers we've discussed?


It's a fair question to ask. Aside from it simply leaving value on the table (from not playing), it's a fair question.

trex_8063 wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.


Fair enough, and fwiw I agree they add a little value. But not enough to make a HUGE difference in his career value. imo, those two seasons [each] are worth roughly what Kawhi Leonard's rookie year is worth (that is: collectively worth ~2x Kawhi's rookie season); they're LESS than what Kawhi's first two seasons would be worth, imo.



With dhsilv2's question in mind, I'm going to kind of expound on my prior comment in a further comparison of career value---Kawhi vs Walton----by doing something a touch different and sort of sectioning their respective careers into chunks that seem of similar value to me.

I think Walton's entire tenure in a Clippers uniform + his rookie season (a mere 35 games) equal in total value what Kawhi provided in his first two seasons. The specified Walton seasons comprise 5,712 rs minutes as an average 18.6 PER, .101 WS/48, +3.3 BPM player with ZERO playoff minutes to speak of. "Luck" applies here, though is arguably counter-balanced by the "damage" dhsilv2 is referring to (before we even talk about salary).
Kawhi's first two seasons comprise 3,344 rs minutes as a 16.5 PER, .168 WS/48, +4.1 BPM player; plus 1,154 playoff minutes.


Next I want to look at '77-'78 Walton vs '16-'17 Kawhi. I think there's little question that Walton peaked higher as a player (by a solid margin, imo)----I say this despite the fact that box-based metrics favor Kawhi by a handy margin (and he was top 5 or 6 in RAPM both years, too); so I allow others could disagree with me.
But otoh, Walton also again missed substantial time in these two seasons. Whereas Kawhi missed 18 TOTAL rs games between those two years, Walton missed 17 one year and 24 the other. Place however much value you choose on those 23 additional missed games, but it's not irrelevant imo: that's more than a quarter of a season; that can seriously hurt a playoff seeding some years.

Walton also missed most of the playoffs in '78. One might try to counterpoint that Kawhi missed playoff time in '17, too. But it's not nearly the same: Walton played limited minutes (of limited effectiveness) in just TWO of the six games of the Blazer's opening series (and had the Blazers managed to advance without his help, he'd have missed any subsequent playoff games). Kawhi played in 12 of the Spurs' 16 playoff games in '17, and they frankly likely would have lost to the juggernaut Warriors anyway. Most of his missed time was sort of flukey (after getting "Zaza'd") too, fwiw.

So overall, I probably put slightly more value on '77-'78 Walton, but it's a REALLY tight margin, imo. That missed playoffs in '78 in particular, hurts.
Thus, so far, I'm assessing '75, '77-'78, '80, '83-'85 Walton as providing just slightly more career value than '12-'13, '16-'17 Kawhi.


What remains is '76 and '86 Walton ('87 is irrelevant), vs '14-'15 Kawhi.
In '76, Walton is playing very well and is a formidable player (though not yet up to peak form)......but he again misses 31 games and again has no playoff sample to speak of (and in this particular instance, his missing time may well have been the reason they didn't make the post-season). In '86, he's healthy, though so far declined as to be a role player. Overall, he played 3,233 total rs minutes in those two years (avg 18.3 PER, .132 WS/48, +3.3 BPM).
'14-'15 Kawhi played 3,956 minutes (>22% more minutes) as an avg 20.7 PER, .199 WS/48, +5.9 BPM [i.e. a clearly better player than the avg of '76 and '86 Walton]; also with more playoff minutes (which include a title and FMVP).
And while Walton's off-box impact is always hinted at, it's not like these box-based stats are "empty" for Kawhi: in '14 he was 7th in the league in NPI RAPM; in '15 he was 5th in PI RAPM (behind only Lebron, Curry, CP3, and Draymond).


'14-'15 Kawhi hold such a substantial edge over '76/'86 Walton that imo it swings the needle back in his favor in terms of overall career value, by a small but clear margin.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#19 » by pandrade83 » Thu Mar 1, 2018 1:32 am

trex_8063 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Is it worth discussing the impact on a team to have a player who is constantly hurt? Isn't that as big a problem (all be it not the person hurt's fault) as some of the trouble makers we've discussed?


It's a fair question to ask. Aside from it simply leaving value on the table (from not playing), it's a fair question.

trex_8063 wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.


Fair enough, and fwiw I agree they add a little value. But not enough to make a HUGE difference in his career value. imo, those two seasons [each] are worth roughly what Kawhi Leonard's rookie year is worth (that is: collectively worth ~2x Kawhi's rookie season); they're LESS than what Kawhi's first two seasons would be worth, imo.



With dhsilv2's question in mind, I'm going to kind of expound on my prior comment in a further comparison of career value---Kawhi vs Walton----by doing something a touch different and sort of sectioning their respective careers into chunks that seem of similar value to me.

I think Walton's entire tenure in a Clippers uniform + his rookie season (a mere 35 games) equal in total value what Kawhi provided in his first two seasons. The specified Walton seasons comprise 5,712 rs minutes as an average 18.6 PER, .101 WS/48, +3.3 BPM player with ZERO playoff minutes to speak of. "Luck" applies here, though is arguably counter-balanced by the "damage" dhsilv2 is referring to (before we even talk about salary).
Kawhi's first two seasons comprise 3,344 rs minutes as a 16.5 PER, .168 WS/48, +4.1 BPM player; plus 1,154 playoff minutes.


Next I want to look at '77-'78 Walton vs '16-'17 Kawhi. I think there's little question that Walton peaked higher as a player (by a solid margin, imo)----I say this despite the fact that box-based metrics favor Kawhi by a handy margin (and he was top 5 or 6 in RAPM both years, too); so I allow others could disagree with me.
But otoh, Walton also again missed substantial time in these two seasons. Whereas Kawhi missed 18 TOTAL rs games between those two years, Walton missed 17 one year and 24 the other. Place however much value you choose on those 23 additional missed games, but it's not irrelevant imo: that's more than a quarter of a season; that can seriously hurt a playoff seeding some years.

Walton also missed most of the playoffs in '78. One might try to counterpoint that Kawhi missed playoff time in '17, too. But it's not nearly the same: Walton played limited minutes (of limited effectiveness) in just TWO of the six games of the Blazer's opening series (and had the Blazers managed to advance without his help, he'd have missed any subsequent playoff games). Kawhi played in 12 of the Spurs' 16 playoff games in '17, and they frankly likely would have lost to the juggernaut Warriors anyway. Most of his missed time was sort of flukey (after getting "Zaza'd") too, fwiw.

So overall, I probably put slightly more value on '77-'78 Walton, but it's a REALLY tight margin, imo. That missed playoffs in '78 in particular, hurts.
Thus, so far, I'm assessing '75, '77-'78, '80, '83-'85 Walton as providing just slightly more career value than '12-'13, '16-'17 Kawhi.


What remains is '76 and '86 Walton ('87 is irrelevant), vs '14-'15 Kawhi.
In '76, Walton is playing very well and is a formidable player (though not yet up to peak form)......but he again misses 31 games and again has no playoff sample to speak of (and in this particular instance, his missing time may well have been the reason they didn't make the post-season). In '86, he's healthy, though so far declined as to be a role player. Overall, he played 3,233 total rs minutes in those two years (avg 18.3 PER, .132 WS/48, +3.3 BPM).
'14-'15 Kawhi played 3,956 minutes (>22% more minutes) as an avg 20.7 PER, .199 WS/48, +5.9 BPM [i.e. a clearly better player than the avg of '76 and '86 Walton]; also with more playoff minutes (which include a title and FMVP).
And while Walton's off-box impact is always hinted at, it's not like these box-based stats are "empty" for Kawhi: in '14 he was 7th in the league in NPI RAPM; in '15 he was 5th in PI RAPM (behind only Lebron, Curry, CP3, and Draymond).


'14-'15 Kawhi hold such a substantial edge over '76/'86 Walton that imo it swings the needle back in his favor in terms of overall career value, by a small but clear margin.


I think this is reasonable - the only thing I disagree with is the healthy clipper years vs. Kawhi's 1st two years - partially because the fact Kawhi made the playoffs in those years by function of being on the Spurs isn't that value add to me - but also:

Per 36:
Walton: 16-12-4, 3.7 blk + steals, 57% TS
Kawhi: 13-7-2, 2.6 blk + steals, 58% TS

Now, Kawhi does have a meaningful advantage in TO's (4 to 1.1) - but some of that is a function of team responsibilities - Kawhi isn't asked to do much with the ball in general. Walton's per minute production seems more comparable to Manu's career per 36:

19-5-5, 58% TS, 2.8 TOV, 2.3 blk + steals

When I couple that with Walton's with/without impact - I actually do give the edge to Walton during those healthy Clipper years.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 #95 

Post#20 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Mar 1, 2018 1:47 am

trex_8063 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Is it worth discussing the impact on a team to have a player who is constantly hurt? Isn't that as big a problem (all be it not the person hurt's fault) as some of the trouble makers we've discussed?


It's a fair question to ask. Aside from it simply leaving value on the table (from not playing), it's a fair question.

trex_8063 wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:So, one thing I hope to point out on the two reasonably healthy Walton in Clipper-land years:

In both years the Clippers were basically a 34 win pace team when Walton played - and about a 21-22 win pace without. That's not nothing and it's a 2 year sample vs. just a one. And that's in a place that is pretty bad from a cultural/environment standpoint.

I don't really think it's fair to just gloss over those years as whatever years.


Fair enough, and fwiw I agree they add a little value. But not enough to make a HUGE difference in his career value. imo, those two seasons [each] are worth roughly what Kawhi Leonard's rookie year is worth (that is: collectively worth ~2x Kawhi's rookie season); they're LESS than what Kawhi's first two seasons would be worth, imo.



With dhsilv2's question in mind, I'm going to kind of expound on my prior comment in a further comparison of career value---Kawhi vs Walton----by doing something a touch different and sort of sectioning their respective careers into chunks that seem of similar value to me.

I think Walton's entire tenure in a Clippers uniform + his rookie season (a mere 35 games) equal in total value what Kawhi provided in his first two seasons. The specified Walton seasons comprise 5,712 rs minutes as an average 18.6 PER, .101 WS/48, +3.3 BPM player with ZERO playoff minutes to speak of. "Luck" applies here, though is arguably counter-balanced by the "damage" dhsilv2 is referring to (before we even talk about salary).
Kawhi's first two seasons comprise 3,344 rs minutes as a 16.5 PER, .168 WS/48, +4.1 BPM player; plus 1,154 playoff minutes.


Next I want to look at '77-'78 Walton vs '16-'17 Kawhi. I think there's little question that Walton peaked higher as a player (by a solid margin, imo)----I say this despite the fact that box-based metrics favor Kawhi by a handy margin (and he was top 5 or 6 in RAPM both years, too); so I allow others could disagree with me.
But otoh, Walton also again missed substantial time in these two seasons. Whereas Kawhi missed 18 TOTAL rs games between those two years, Walton missed 17 one year and 24 the other. Place however much value you choose on those 23 additional missed games, but it's not irrelevant imo: that's more than a quarter of a season; that can seriously hurt a playoff seeding some years.

Walton also missed most of the playoffs in '78. One might try to counterpoint that Kawhi missed playoff time in '17, too. But it's not nearly the same: Walton played limited minutes (of limited effectiveness) in just TWO of the six games of the Blazer's opening series (and had the Blazers managed to advance without his help, he'd have missed any subsequent playoff games). Kawhi played in 12 of the Spurs' 16 playoff games in '17, and they frankly likely would have lost to the juggernaut Warriors anyway. Most of his missed time was sort of flukey (after getting "Zaza'd") too, fwiw.

So overall, I probably put slightly more value on '77-'78 Walton, but it's a REALLY tight margin, imo. That missed playoffs in '78 in particular, hurts.
Thus, so far, I'm assessing '75, '77-'78, '80, '83-'85 Walton as providing just slightly more career value than '12-'13, '16-'17 Kawhi.


What remains is '76 and '86 Walton ('87 is irrelevant), vs '14-'15 Kawhi.
In '76, Walton is playing very well and is a formidable player (though not yet up to peak form)......but he again misses 31 games and again has no playoff sample to speak of (and in this particular instance, his missing time may well have been the reason they didn't make the post-season). In '86, he's healthy, though so far declined as to be a role player. Overall, he played 3,233 total rs minutes in those two years (avg 18.3 PER, .132 WS/48, +3.3 BPM).
'14-'15 Kawhi played 3,956 minutes (>22% more minutes) as an avg 20.7 PER, .199 WS/48, +5.9 BPM [i.e. a clearly better player than the avg of '76 and '86 Walton]; also with more playoff minutes (which include a title and FMVP).
And while Walton's off-box impact is always hinted at, it's not like these box-based stats are "empty" for Kawhi: in '14 he was 7th in the league in NPI RAPM; in '15 he was 5th in PI RAPM (behind only Lebron, Curry, CP3, and Draymond).


'14-'15 Kawhi hold such a substantial edge over '76/'86 Walton that imo it swings the needle back in his favor in terms of overall career value, by a small but clear margin.


Great write up.

Doesn't really dress my question, but really nails hits on a lot of where I'm at on Walton. Though I'm a bigger peak guy, but I like a somewhat repeatable peak. Walton's wasn't, you can't build on that, and while that's rarely an issue for me in this project (I figure everyone can build around anyone on average), walton is a real outlier.

That said I don't want to insult anyone voting walton. I get it, but I can't agree with him for another likely 10-20 spots. We haven't even touched on Dumars, Richmond, Mullins, Buck Williams...and we all seem to have lists of 10+ people.

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