Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol

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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#61 » by LA Bird » Thu Aug 9, 2018 5:36 am

Amare_1_Knicks wrote:
LA Bird wrote:Considering Gasol in his peak 2009 season was less impactful on a per possession basis than Odom and peak Draymond was basically a supercharged Odom with better defense and 3pt shooting, I am not seeing why Gasol is ranked ahead of Green in most lists here. He is a better scorer for sure but the per 36 offensive volume difference between them is around:

09 Gasol - 18 points, 3 assists on 62% TS
16 Green - 14 points, 7 assists on 58% TS (38% 3pt shot)

There is no way that offensive gap comes anywhere close to the massive defensive lead Draymond has over Gasol.

McHale is 1, Draymond is 2. Not sure about Brand but he and Gasol is clearly behind the first two.


There’s definitely a massive offensive gap between the two. Gasol had near superstar level offensive ability, and Draymond isn’t close to that. He benefits from playing with other great players, and he is a good passer(but then so was Gasol) but he doesn’t come close to Gasol in terms of being a scoring option. Gasol was infinitely better in that regard. You could actually run the offense through Gasol from the high post/post.

Gasol a near superstar on offense? Please. During his Memphis career, Gasol averaged 19 points on 57% TS - solid but nothing close to star tier. He was a great passer for a center but it's not like he is Jokic in that area. His only All Star season in Memphis was in 2006 when they got carried by Battier to a #2 defense in the league with below league average offense. The reason why Gasol's offense gets as much love as it does today is because he went to the Lakers, meshed well with Kobe and went on to post career highs in TS% and box ORtg numbers on championship teams.... which makes it rather ironic that you would complain about Draymond benefiting from playing with other great players. Gasol is an "infinitely better" scorer because he scores 5 more points on better efficiency yet you don't talk about Draymond being an "infinitely better" passer when he has double the number of assists. Gasol is a better offensive player but the difference is vastly overrated when people start talking about them as if this is a Durant vs Bowen comparison.

He wasn’t coming close to matching Gasol’s impact on offense. No where near as dynamic, or effective. There’s some stats worth pointing to that back this up, but the fact is anyone who watched the two should objectively be able to say that Pau >>> Dray offensively. The gap offensively is bigger.

Which impact stats has peak Draymond not coming close to matching Gasol on offense? Green is behind in box score stats but RAPM is always his strong suit. JE's single year 2016 ORAPM has he at #2 in the entire league ahead of even Curry. If you are going to claim there are stats backing up Draymond not being close to Gasol's impact on offense, do show it instead of just talking about it. Also, regardless of the offensive gap, all impact stats would point to Draymond being 1000 miles ahead on defense so I am not sure how you reached the conclusion the offensive gap is bigger right after talking about impact stats.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#62 » by Amare_1_Knicks » Thu Aug 9, 2018 6:38 pm

LA Bird wrote:
Amare_1_Knicks wrote:
LA Bird wrote:Considering Gasol in his peak 2009 season was less impactful on a per possession basis than Odom and peak Draymond was basically a supercharged Odom with better defense and 3pt shooting, I am not seeing why Gasol is ranked ahead of Green in most lists here. He is a better scorer for sure but the per 36 offensive volume difference between them is around:

09 Gasol - 18 points, 3 assists on 62% TS
16 Green - 14 points, 7 assists on 58% TS (38% 3pt shot)

There is no way that offensive gap comes anywhere close to the massive defensive lead Draymond has over Gasol.

McHale is 1, Draymond is 2. Not sure about Brand but he and Gasol is clearly behind the first two.


There’s definitely a massive offensive gap between the two. Gasol had near superstar level offensive ability, and Draymond isn’t close to that. He benefits from playing with other great players, and he is a good passer(but then so was Gasol) but he doesn’t come close to Gasol in terms of being a scoring option. Gasol was infinitely better in that regard. You could actually run the offense through Gasol from the high post/post.

Gasol a near superstar on offense? Please. During his Memphis career, Gasol averaged 19 points on 57% TS - solid but nothing close to star tier. He was a great passer for a center but it's not like he is Jokic in that area. His only All Star season in Memphis was in 2006 when they got carried by Battier to a #2 defense in the league with below league average offense. The reason why Gasol's offense gets as much love as it does today is because he went to the Lakers, meshed well with Kobe and went on to post career highs in TS% and box ORtg numbers on championship teams.... which makes it rather ironic that you would complain about Draymond benefiting from playing with other great players. Gasol is an "infinitely better" scorer because he scores 5 more points on better efficiency yet you don't talk about Draymond being an "infinitely better" passer when he has double the number of assists. Gasol is a better offensive player but the difference is vastly overrated when people start talking about them as if this is a Durant vs Bowen comparison.

He wasn’t coming close to matching Gasol’s impact on offense. No where near as dynamic, or effective. There’s some stats worth pointing to that back this up, but the fact is anyone who watched the two should objectively be able to say that Pau >>> Dray offensively. The gap offensively is bigger.

Which impact stats has peak Draymond not coming close to matching Gasol on offense? Green is behind in box score stats but RAPM is always his strong suit. JE's single year 2016 ORAPM has he at #2 in the entire league ahead of even Curry. If you are going to claim there are stats backing up Draymond not being close to Gasol's impact on offense, do show it instead of just talking about it. Also, regardless of the offensive gap, all impact stats would point to Draymond being 1000 miles ahead on defense so I am not sure how you reached the conclusion the offensive gap is bigger right after talking about impact stats.


He was in between all-star level offense, and superstar level offense so he was close to superstar level offensively. He was clearly above “just an all-star”. The kind of numbers he put up in 09 were actually elite, and haven’t been replicated too often(by big men or in general, and the guys who have replicated those numbers are clearly superstar level talent for the most part).

19PPG/3.5APG(with less than two turnovers) on 57%FG/62%TS is insane efficiency, but what’s more important here is that he was extremely dynamic. His style of play, versatility and array of moves made him close to a superstar.

He’s not Jokic as a passer? That’s a weird thing to say; Pau is clearly an ATG passing big, regardless of who he may not be as good as, as a passer. That being said, the Nuggets have played at a 98.3 pace, and a 96.6 pace the past two seasons. In Gasols best passing season(06, averaging 4.6 a game), the Grizzlies pace was 86.3.

Yes, Gasol is an infinitely better scorer, and option offensively. He brings a much better combination of scoring and passing that Draymond does. No matter who you put Draymond with, he couldn’t match the offensive potentcy that Pau was offering. He became greater on the Lakers but he was clearly a star without Kobe, and his skills just flourished next to him. A team is closer to being complete offensively with peak Gasol than peak Draymond.

OBPM, PER, TS%, ORTG point to Gasol having advantages over Draymond offensively. Both of their impact stats look good, but yes, Dray comes out on top. Draymond does a great job of orchestrating when there’s superior offensive talent on the floor with him, but Gasol was a legitimate 1B- second option offensively and it’s clear that Green isn’t that. I’d always rather have the superior all around offensive product(scoring and passing, creating his own shot and etc.) and work out the defensive kinks later. If I have a team I’d rather be troubled with finding good defensive players than finding an offensive player like Gasol.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#63 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:13 am

You think Gasol is a better passer than Draymond?

Draymond is a really good passer. Draymond has the assists and it isn't just because of the Warriors system.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#64 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:57 am

1. Draymond
2. Pau
3. McHale
4. Brand

Dray so underrated that it pisses me off which is funny since when I actually watch him play he’s my least favorite player in the league! The bias toward lead scorers is ridiculous. It’s actually not all that important in terms of winning. Steve Nash never averaged over 19 PPG once in his career and he was still the most
Impactful offensive player in the league. Playmaking is more important than putting the ball in the basket yourself and Dray’s excellent at that. Also, there’s the fact that he replaces a center defensively so even if he’s not a great shooter, he still improves your spacing compared to having someone at the rim. It all combines to make him a very positive offensive player while also being one of the best defenders of all-time.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#65 » by Jaivl » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:40 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:You think Gasol is a better passer than Draymond?

Nobody should think that. But it's better than thinking Draymond is a better shooter than Pau.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#66 » by carlquincy » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:55 am

Not sure if Green is a better passer than Pau.

I'll rank:

Pau
Green
McHale
Brand
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#67 » by trex_8063 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:37 pm

Maybe I'm short-changing Draymond, but I'm just not confident he's the brilliant offensive player that many of his supporters claim. I worry that if he weren't surrounded by 2-3 of the very best shooting and best off-ball players in the game today, playing within a brilliant system predicated on constant off-ball movement......that his playmaking talents wouldn't have quite the same shine. Like maybe in a different setting he'd basically be peak Joakim Noah, but with better shooting range (but worse offensive rebounding).
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#68 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:19 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Maybe I'm short-changing Draymond, but I'm just not confident he's the brilliant offensive player that many of his supporters claim. I worry that if he weren't surrounded by 2-3 of the very best shooting and best off-ball players in the game today, playing within a brilliant system predicated on constant off-ball movement......that his playmaking talents wouldn't have quite the same shine. Like maybe in a different setting he'd basically be peak Joakim Noah, but with better shooting range (but worse offensive rebounding).


Could the warriors system run without Dray is the question I'd put to you.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#69 » by trex_8063 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:48 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Maybe I'm short-changing Draymond, but I'm just not confident he's the brilliant offensive player that many of his supporters claim. I worry that if he weren't surrounded by 2-3 of the very best shooting and best off-ball players in the game today, playing within a brilliant system predicated on constant off-ball movement......that his playmaking talents wouldn't have quite the same shine. Like maybe in a different setting he'd basically be peak Joakim Noah, but with better shooting range (but worse offensive rebounding).


Could the warriors system run without Dray is the question I'd put to you.


Well, in this past season (not his peak, I realize) they were a 113.8 ORtg in rs and 112.9 ORtg in playoffs WITHOUT Green on the court. So.....it at any rate isn't dying on the vine without him (though I'm generally not fond of using single season on/off in this fashion--->too much line-up noise to draw broad conclusions, imo). To his credit, I feel Green was more indispensable [on offense] before Durant arrived on scene.

At any rate, I'm not sure the answer to that question necessarily establishes offensive brilliance either way. Going back to my Joakim Noah example, do those Chicago Bull offensive systems ('14 and '15) run without Noah (who was essentially the principle playmaker for both teams, despite not being the primary ball-handler)? Can we establish a "really good offensive player" label for Noah based on that (admittedly that wasn't a good team offense in '14)?

I'm just saying.....if Draymond were to, in the near future, somehow find himself on a team with average [but not bad] offensive talent, I'd not be surprised if we suddenly found him doing 10-11 ppg (middling efficiency), 5-6 apg for a mediocre offense. And if so, I've no doubt the narrative about his offensive profile would alter somewhat.

I'm speculating, obviously, but I just don't see him as some Lebron-level playmaker. I think he's much closer to a peak Joakim Noah as a passer/playmaker.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#70 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:26 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Maybe I'm short-changing Draymond, but I'm just not confident he's the brilliant offensive player that many of his supporters claim. I worry that if he weren't surrounded by 2-3 of the very best shooting and best off-ball players in the game today, playing within a brilliant system predicated on constant off-ball movement......that his playmaking talents wouldn't have quite the same shine. Like maybe in a different setting he'd basically be peak Joakim Noah, but with better shooting range (but worse offensive rebounding).


Could the warriors system run without Dray is the question I'd put to you.


Well, in this past season (not his peak, I realize) they were a 113.8 ORtg in rs and 112.9 ORtg in playoffs WITHOUT Green on the court. So.....it at any rate isn't dying on the vine without him (though I'm generally not fond of using single season on/off in this fashion--->too much line-up noise to draw broad conclusions, imo). To his credit, I feel Green was more indispensable [on offense] before Durant arrived on scene.

At any rate, I'm not sure the answer to that question necessarily establishes offensive brilliance either way. Going back to my Joakim Noah example, do those Chicago Bull offensive systems ('14 and '15) run without Noah (who was essentially the principle playmaker for both teams, despite not being the primary ball-handler)? Can we establish a "really good offensive player" label for Noah based on that (admittedly that wasn't a good team offense in '14)?

I'm just saying.....if Draymond were to, in the near future, somehow find himself on a team with average [but not bad] offensive talent, I'd not be surprised if we suddenly found him doing 10-11 ppg (middling efficiency), 5-6 apg for a mediocre offense. And if so, I've no doubt the narrative about his offensive profile would alter somewhat.

I'm speculating, obviously, but I just don't see him as some Lebron-level playmaker. I think he's much closer to a peak Joakim Noah as a passer/playmaker.


Let me stubble through this perhaps half baked thought.

Portability is a wonderful trait in a player and I'd agree that an ideal player can adapt and fit into any situation. We don't really know that about Green, we have data that indicates he scores more when curry is out of the offense, using the 16 playoffs, but it's a crazy tiny sample. However there is something to be said about uniqueness of talent and the value it can have when leveraged.

I look at what Korver did when a coach properly leveraged his shooting in Atlanta as a classic example of a coach leveraging elite talent.

The next item is trying to understand the value of shall we say synergy in offense and defense and how to effectively evaluate that. What this means for Green is that he can function as a defensive 5 but him being guarded by 5's creates a huge mismatch offensively. I'm not sure where I place this extra value because without the defense, the offensive value doesn't happen...so I tend to place that value on the offensive end.

The net result is you have a big man who is a top tier passing big man. Perhaps Noah is similar, I tend to see a gap, but I could see for example a Diaw being a comparable passer as a big man. He during his peak year shot the 3 well enough to consistently punish teams for leaving him open. He actually finishes pretty decently at the rim (though in 16, that was actually a fairy poor year there for him) and he actually gets those looks at the rim at a pretty decent rate. Plus he's able to handle the ball reasonable well in a pinch, clearly he can't be your primary ball handler.

Draymond is a unicorn in his unique skills and with a coach and team that can use those skills, he's extremely valuable. I think they extend well beyond the idea that they only work when there are two elite shooters on his team. I think almost any team could use Green as a tool to bring in a small ball lineup and nearly all teams are better offensively when they can do that.

Perhaps this reasoning is wrong, perhaps it's giving green credit on offense for what should be defense, but that's at least how I see him in my head.
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Re: Peaks: Draymond vs McHale vs Brand vs P.Gasol 

Post#71 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:28 pm

I think current Draymond is a slightly above average offensive player at best. In 16 he was leaning towards great though.
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