GOAT TEAM TOURNAMENT (semifinals) #1 Milwaukee Bucks 1971-72 v. #7 Boston Celtics 1985-86

[penbeast0]

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was, if a player was 75% during the playoffs that year, assume he's only 75% now, this is a playoff tournament, not a regular season seeding.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED.

1971 Milwaukee Bucks
Lew Alcindor (Kareem)
Greg Smith
Bob Dandridge
Jon McGlocklin
Oscar Robertson

Luscius Allen
Bob Boozer

The highest SRS of all time, the best offense AND the best defense in the league, Kareem surrounded by talent, what's not to like? Kareem was energized by the arrival of Oscar Robertson, not peak Oscar but still one of the strongest and smartest guards to ever play. Bob Dandridge provided a nice 2 way 3rd star, McGlocklin was a pure jump shooter who could play point and Smith was a dirty work player. Allen and Boozer provided starter quality minutes off the bench, both playing over 20 mpg in the playoffs as coach Larry Costello shortened his rotation to 7 players.

1986 BOSTON CELTICS (Coach KC Jones)

C Robert Parish
PF Kevin McHale
SF Larry Bird
SG Danny Ainge
PG Dennis Johnson

C/F Bill Walton
G Jerry Sichting

Last time we did this, the 1986 Celtics won the whole tournament. 4 deep in HOF big men with Bill Walton having only the 2nd healthy playoff of his career and a strong defensive backcourt made for a dominant team even in this earlier era of superteams. Kevin McHale outplayed a young Hakeem Olujawon in the finals, this time they face a young Lew Alcindor (Kareem); Bird and Walton gave them probably the greatest interior passing team to ever play and that makes it rough on a young shotblocker. On the downside, top wing reserve Scott Wedman was injured and only played in 1 game of the finals leaving them with only Walton and Sichting as keys off the bench and the Bucks have HCA as JordansBulls would put it. The Celtics were the best defensive team in the league in the regular season but only the 3rd best offensive team but they stepped it up in the playoffs led by Larry Bird's 25.9ppg on .618ts%. With 1972 rules and referees, Larry Bird's abilities to hit 3's is negated, no one else shot a lot though all the Boston guard shot some.

[pandrade83]

I believe this should say 1970-1971 Bucks.

At any rate - last round I went against the Bucks on the basis of strength of era. Part of me wants to go with Milwaukee, because I think Kareem could overwhelm the Boston front line - I remember seeing clips of what he did to them in '85 & this version is obviously far better. I think we forget how great Jabbar was in the Bucks days.

Watch on YouTube

Taking away the 3 point line does weaken Boston a bit as well; I could see Oscar having his way with the Boston backcourt.

If this were 80's rules & equipment, I think I'd take Boston - however, in this setting - with lesser equipment for somewhat injury prone Boston players & with HCA, I'll take the Bucks in 7.

[Samurai]

The twin towers of McHale/Parish would make Greg Smith largely unplayable in this series, but we've had the same issue in the previous round for the Bucks. As before, Boozer would likely get more playing time. Smith was an energizer for the Bucks but since they didn't rely on him for a lot of scoring, rebounding, or playmaking, the insertion of Boozer shouldn't significantly hurt the team. I think DJ would do a decent job on Oscar. Bird is more than a handful for anyone, but Dandridge was an excellent defender in his own right and quicker, skinnier defenders (such as Michael Cooper) did as good of a job in harassing Bird as anyone; I don't think Bird's advantage is quite enough to swing this for the Celtics.

But in the end, I think a 23-year old Kareem has enough of an advantage over the 32-year old Parish to give the Bucks an edge. Walton was a great sub in 86, but I think an argument could be made that he was just a hair better in 85 than 86, and the impact of 1971 courts, shoes, and trainers on the 34-year old Walton's feet would more than likely cause him to miss time or be a step slower. With HCA, I would vote for the Bucks.

[iggymcfrack]

If it’s how dominant they were for this era, this Pretty much has to be the Bucks. SRS is 3 points higher. Outscored their playoff opponents by 4 points more per game. Playing at home and will gain a slight advantage from Bird not being able to shoot 3s. There’s certainly nothing in the matchups that makes up for all that.

[penbeast0]

Not sure I agree (okay, I'm sure I don't agree). I think Dennis Johnson will do as good a job on Oscar as anyone can; Oscar's offensive strengths are very similar to DJ's defensive ones . . . strength, size, athleticism, etc. Ainge is a better defender, better ballhandler, and roughly equivalent shooter to Jon McGlocklin; Luscious Allen is significantly better than Jerry Sichting. Bird is a large degree better than Bob Dandridge and his offensive style does not play into Dandridge's defensive strengths (quickness, anticipation). Smith will play a lot more than Boozer because they need Smith's superior defense against McHale (or Parish); Jabbar can only cover one of the two. Walton is also significantly superior to Boozer in pretty much everything. The other key thing is that Kareem is still young; Walton and Bird's interior passing is the best I've ever seen by a lot. This can negate a bit of Kareem's shotblocking as he still bites on strong moves to the hoop. Era differential also clearly favors the Celtics; the Bucks numbers including SRS are inflated by all the expansion far more than those of the Celtics. I have the Celtics taking this one; not easily but with a decent margin. They are just the deeper, stronger team.

[penbeast0]

Currently 3-1 Milwaukee. Boston needs an historic comeback to pull this out.

[Hal14]

Not sure if it's too late, but I'm picking the 86' Celtics..the greatest passing team of all-time.

The Bucks were a great team that was tough, could rebound, defend and had 2 of the top 15 players of all time. But Kareem and Oscar didn't have great chemistry on the court together. The Bucks as a whole didn't have great chemistry on the court together - especially compared to the 86 Celtics.

The Celtics were a well oiled machine - my pick for the greatest team of all time. They were tougher than the Bucks, played better defense, better passing, better shooting. While Bird vs Dandridge would be a fun match up to watch, Bird would win the matchup easily. Dennis Johnson (one of the best perimeter defenders of all time) would take Oscar out of his rhythm and make it tough for Oscar to create anything.

The Celtics were also deeper. Not to mention who's going to cover McHale?