Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy?

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Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy?

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No
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#21 » by Basileus777 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:44 pm

Of course it hurts his legacy. People were trying to make the case that Durant was the best Warriors' player since he came to the team and that he was the best player in the world and this is a huge blow to that narrative. I don't think that narrative was ever well supported, but the Warriors winning it all without him would completely knee cap it.

And honestly, the Warriors probably would have won in 2017 without him, and probably would have won in 2018 if Iggy doesn't get hurt too.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#22 » by Dupp » Wed May 15, 2019 8:46 pm

Say kd stays and lebron was to join next season for the min ( let’s pretend he’s out of contract). Lebron puts up 28 8 8 on great %s and decent d. How are we weighing that title ? Does that add to his legacy close to the same level his other titles did? He’s still a great player playing great...
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#23 » by Peregrine01 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:48 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:The interesting thing is that GSW is clearly a better team with KD when he’s playing in the most optimal way, that is, through the primacy of Steph/Dray. Unfortunately, he doesn’t seem inclined to play that way - probably viewing that in doing so it diminishes his stature in the eyes of others. And given his free agency and neurotic state of mind, the Warriors have actively sought to accommodate his desires, which entails a far inferior form of play style for the team but better for him in the all important “best player in the world” debate that so permeates the NBA.


I think the difference between Portland and Houston is clear for most reasonable observers to see. That is to say, Houston's ability to switch 1-5 on and off the ball mucked up GS's off ball flow in a way that Portland having it's bigs sit in the paint upon defend the PnR does not. So naturally Steph and the offense look better, as they're playing a weaker defense this round than last. Therefore your arm chair psycho-analysis isn't really appropriate or credible tbh. :nod:


GSW completely obliterated Houston’s switch everything defense when they ran the Steph/Draymond pick and roll down the stretch of both games 5 and 6. There’s not a chance that that play (which IMO is the most unstoppable play in the league) gets spammed the way they did if KD was in those games. Nor would Steph be on-ball as much.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#24 » by Ooduwa » Wed May 15, 2019 8:49 pm

Basileus777 wrote:Of course it hurts his legacy. People were trying to make the case that Durant was the best Warriors' player since he came to the team and that he was the best player in the world and this is a huge blow to that narrative. I don't think that narrative was ever well supported, but the Warriors winning it all without him would completely knee cap it.

And honestly, the Warriors probably would have won in 2017 without him, and probably would have won in 2018 if Iggy doesn't get hurt too.


So that also means the Warriors going 5-1 last post season without Steph was a blow to his legacy, no? Let's see how consistent you are.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#25 » by Ooduwa » Wed May 15, 2019 8:51 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:GSW completely obliterated Houston’s switch everything defense when they ran the Steph/Draymond pick and roll down the stretch of both games 5 and 6. There’s not a chance that that play (which IMO is the most unstoppable play in the league) gets spammed the way they did if KD was in those games. Nor would Steph be on-ball as much.



So a 5 quarter sample is enough to negate the 48 quarters before it?
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#26 » by Peregrine01 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:59 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:GSW completely obliterated Houston’s switch everything defense when they ran the Steph/Draymond pick and roll down the stretch of both games 5 and 6. There’s not a chance that that play (which IMO is the most unstoppable play in the league) gets spammed the way they did if KD was in those games. Nor would Steph be on-ball as much.



So a 5 quarter sample is enough to negate the 48 quarters before it?


I was basically intimating that GSW was playing sub-optimally against Houston prior to KD going down. Without him, they went back to their bread and butter Steph/Dray pick and roll and there was nothing Houston’s defense could do against it.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#27 » by Ooduwa » Wed May 15, 2019 9:03 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:I was basically intimating that GSW was playing sub-optimally against Houston prior to KD going down. Without him, they went back to their bread and butter Steph/Dray pick and roll and there was nothing Houston’s defense could do against it.


So a 5 quarter sample confirmed your suspicions that GS were playing sub-optimally with KD, even though their post season winning percentage with KD is nearly 20% higher than it is without him? That doesn't make a ton of sense.

I'm curious, did you conclude the Spurs were playing sub-optimally with Kawhi when they defeated the Rockets by 40 and eliminated them from playoff contention while he was out with injury?
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#28 » by WarriorGM » Wed May 15, 2019 9:14 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:GSW completely obliterated Houston’s switch everything defense when they ran the Steph/Draymond pick and roll down the stretch of both games 5 and 6. There’s not a chance that that play (which IMO is the most unstoppable play in the league) gets spammed the way they did if KD was in those games. Nor would Steph be on-ball as much.


So a 5 quarter sample is enough to negate the 48 quarters before it?


It's not just this year's 5 quarters. If you go back and look at the critical period of game 7 of the WCF 2018, it was the offense running through Steph that brought the Warriors back from the brink.

The switch everything defense has evolved to apparently be the most challenging anti-Steph defense. But by no means has it shown itself to be a definitive solution.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#29 » by Peregrine01 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:14 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:I was basically intimating that GSW was playing sub-optimally against Houston prior to KD going down. Without him, they went back to their bread and butter Steph/Dray pick and roll and there was nothing Houston’s defense could do against it.


So a 5 quarter sample confirmed your suspicions that GS were playing sub-optimally with KD, even though their post season winning percentage with KD is nearly 20% higher than it is without him? That doesn't make a ton of sense.

I'm curious, did you conclude the Spurs were playing sub-optimally with Kawhi when they defeated the Rockets by 40 and eliminated them from playoff contention while he was out with injury?


I wouldn’t call the 2018 Spurs anywhere near as threatening as the 2019 Rockets.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#30 » by Ooduwa » Wed May 15, 2019 9:27 pm

WarriorGM wrote:It's not just this year's 5 quarters. If you go back and look at the critical period of game 7 of the WCF 2018, it was the offense running through Steph that brought the Warriors back from the brink.

The switch everything defense has evolved to apparently be the most challenging anti-Steph defense. But by no means has it shown itself to be a definitive solution.


The offense running through KD is why the Warriors were in the series to begin with. Steph being plagued with foul trouble while stuck in a shooting slump would have seen the Warriors eliminated without him.

Peregrine01 wrote:I wouldn’t call the 2018 Spurs anywhere near as threatening as the 2019 Rockets.


That's beside the point. Did you conclude the Spurs were playing sub-optimally with Kawhi when they defeated the Rockets by 40 without him? I doubt it, for obvious reasons. :roll:
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#31 » by WarriorGM » Wed May 15, 2019 9:39 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:It's not just this year's 5 quarters. If you go back and look at the critical period of game 7 of the WCF 2018, it was the offense running through Steph that brought the Warriors back from the brink.

The switch everything defense has evolved to apparently be the most challenging anti-Steph defense. But by no means has it shown itself to be a definitive solution.


The offense running through KD is why the Warriors were in the series to begin with. Steph being plagued with foul trouble while stuck in a shooting slump would have seen the Warriors eliminated without him.


The offense running through KD is of a very high standard because KD is a great player. All indications are that it at least makes the Warriors championship contenders. The 2018 and 2019 campaigns are where we've mainly seen it. But the critical series against the Rockets in both years raises questions on how potent it is and if it diminishes the contributions of Steph and Klay.

On the other hand the 2017 campaign was mainly orchestrated around Steph's offense due to KD's injury late in the regular season. The 2017 Warriors I think are generally acknowledged as being the most impressive iteration of the Warriors.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#32 » by Ooduwa » Wed May 15, 2019 9:44 pm

WarriorGM wrote:The offense running through KD is of a very high standard because KD is a great player. All indications are that it at least makes the Warriors championship contenders. The 2018 and 2019 campaign is where we've mainly seen it. But the critical series against the Rockets in both years raises questions on how potent it is and if it diminishes the contributions of Steph and Klay.


I imagine the Warriors defer to KD against the Rockets because he isn't as bothered by switching, physical defenses then are Steph and Klay. That also seems to follow the line of thinking coming from the Warriors locker room. Same logic applies to previous matchups with the Cavs.

On the other hand the 2017 campaign was mainly orchestrated around Steph's offense due to KD's injury late in the regular season. The 2017 Warriors I think are generally acknowledged as being the most impressive iteration of the Warriors.


The Warriors didn't play the Rockets in 16-17, did they?
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#33 » by WarriorGM » Wed May 15, 2019 9:46 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:The offense running through KD is of a very high standard because KD is a great player. All indications are that it at least makes the Warriors championship contenders. The 2018 and 2019 campaign is where we've mainly seen it. But the critical series against the Rockets in both years raises questions on how potent it is and if it diminishes the contributions of Steph and Klay.


I imagine the Warriors defer to KD against the Rockets because he isn't as bothered by switching, physical defenses then are Steph and Klay. That also seems to follow the line of thinking coming from the Warriors locker room. Same logic applies to previous matchups with the Cavs.

On the other hand the 2017 campaign was mainly orchestrated around Steph's offense due to KD's injury late in the regular season. The 2017 Warriors I think are generally acknowledged as being the most impressive iteration of the Warriors.


The Warriors didn't play the Rockets in 16-17, did they?


They did play the 2017 Cavaliers though and as stated above a Steph offense was played against the Rockets.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#34 » by Ooduwa » Wed May 15, 2019 9:46 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:The offense running through KD is of a very high standard because KD is a great player. All indications are that it at least makes the Warriors championship contenders. The 2018 and 2019 campaign is where we've mainly seen it. But the critical series against the Rockets in both years raises questions on how potent it is and if it diminishes the contributions of Steph and Klay.


I imagine the Warriors defer to KD against the Rockets because he isn't as bothered by switching, physical defenses then are Steph and Klay. That also seems to follow the line of thinking coming from the Warriors locker room. Same logic applies to previous matchups with the Cavs.

On the other hand the 2017 campaign was mainly orchestrated around Steph's offense due to KD's injury late in the regular season. The 2017 Warriors I think are generally acknowledged as being the most impressive iteration of the Warriors.


The Warriors didn't play the Rockets in 16-17, did they?


They did play the 2017 Cavaliers though.


Yea, and KD won the FMVP.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#35 » by Peregrine01 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:47 pm

Ooduwa wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:I wouldn’t call the 2018 Spurs anywhere near as threatening as the 2019 Rockets.


That's beside the point. Did you conclude the Spurs were playing sub-optimally with Kawhi when they defeated the Rockets by 40 without him? I doubt it, for obvious reasons. :roll:


I mean it’s possible. Incidentally I never viewed Kawhi as the type of player that really elevates the offensive potency of his teammates. But I think most blame that loss on Harden’s WOAT-level performance.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#36 » by WarriorGM » Wed May 15, 2019 9:48 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
I imagine the Warriors defer to KD against the Rockets because he isn't as bothered by switching, physical defenses then are Steph and Klay. That also seems to follow the line of thinking coming from the Warriors locker room. Same logic applies to previous matchups with the Cavs.



The Warriors didn't play the Rockets in 16-17, did they?


They did play the 2017 Cavaliers though.


Yea, and KD won the FMVP.


Again the offense went through Steph.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#37 » by Ooduwa » Wed May 15, 2019 10:14 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:

They did play the 2017 Cavaliers though.


Yea, and KD won the FMVP.


Again the offense went through Steph.


That's not what I recall:

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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#38 » by Dupp » Wed May 15, 2019 11:24 pm

That’s one shot. The cavs entire “defense” was centred around stopping Steph. Cavs literally gave kd open lanes to dunk on fast breaks and ran out to guard steph.


You don’t recall that series very well
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#39 » by Joao Saraiva » Thu May 16, 2019 12:15 am

Most votes on yes.

And I think they're correct. We just listened on TV to guys saying the Warriors can't win a series without KD. And then they don't even lose a single game. That was definitely another bullet on a legacy that had this premise all along.

I get people saying KD basically made them invincible - we all know that. But this just goes against the narrative that was starting to be there that the Warriors aren't the same team they were before KD joined, that he's clearly the best player in the league, etc.

And it's not like I don't think KD hasn't a case for being the best player in the league. But that's no even close to a definite conclusion.
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Re: Warriors winning without KD: hurts his legacy? 

Post#40 » by Ooduwa » Thu May 16, 2019 12:22 am

Dupp wrote:That’s one shot. The cavs entire “defense” was centred around stopping Steph. Cavs literally gave kd open lanes to dunk on fast breaks and ran out to guard steph.


You don’t recall that series very well


- If that were the case, and it wasn't(teams aren't intentionally leaving KD open, that's silly talk), it was a very poor game plan that resulted in an emphatic loss. Btw, have you ever considered that teams focus more attention on stopping Curry defensively than KD because it's easier to knock him off his game, and or frustrate him with traditional defensive schemes? For example, roughing Steph up off the ball, or switching mobile bigs onto him like Capela is generally more effective than employing similar strategies against KD. Meanwhile KD has an easier time scoring against, or passing out of, or effectively punishing double teams because he's 7ft tall with long arms. I

- I recall KD creating a ton of the bounce, and dominating in historic fashion en route to a finals MVP. This video confirms a lot of what I recall:



I don't see a lot of those mythical Curry double teams folks go on about, nor do I see a lot of KD facing the basket without bodies in front of him. I do however see Cavs players sprinting to Curry and Klay in transition to run them off the 3pt line, a strategy they promptly abandoned after being torched in game one.

Joao Saraiva wrote:And I think they're correct. We just listened on TV to guys saying the Warriors can't win a series without KD. And then they don't even lose a single game. That was definitely another bullet on a legacy that had this premise all along.

I get people saying KD basically made them invincible - we all know that. But this just goes against the narrative that was starting to be there that the Warriors aren't the same team they were before KD joined, that he's clearly the best player in the league, etc.

And it's not like I don't think KD hasn't a case for being the best player in the league. But that's no even close to a definite conclusion.


KD is the Warriors best player, according to the Warriors, and is the x-factor that elevates the team from a contender into a dynasty. It's time to stop disparaging the man because he made a wise career decision, and learn to appreciate greatness while we have it. :nod:

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