Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size?

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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#21 » by Amare_1_Knicks » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:39 pm

bledredwine wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
He’s definitely not a better defender at his position, not a better shooter, or better rebounder. He hasn’t dominated his matchups at point guard every series in the playoffs.


Ironically I think he is actually all of those things. I have Chris Paul as the third best defensive peak of all time at his position. He was one of the most effective perimeter defenders in the league last year despute being 33 and 6’ nothing if we’re generous.

How is shooting even close? MJ was not an effective 3 point shooter and Paul is already close to his mid range percentages despite being half a foot shorter at least.


There are fewer and fewer reasons supporting Chris Paul’s greatness now that the “not enough help” reason is long gone. He’s now played on teams for about seven seasons where he was 2nd option to a better player, or debatably first if you truly believe that he was Batman to Blake’s better seasons. He’s had little success in this league and has struggled multiple times, being outplayed in series by players like Parker, Westbrook, etc.

That in itself should put an end to the conjecture. That said....

How is shooting even close?

You’re talking the best midrange shooter of all time, and someone who averaged over .400 from 3 in seasons when he chose to take threes.

Jordan is the 6th leading guard in rebounds. Where does Paul land? Jordan is 9 time first team defense and DPOY. Though he’s had his share of first team defense, Jordan still defeats him. On top of this, Paul was never a DPOY caliber defender.

Jordan always defeated his matchups. I’ve already posted about this and Paul’s been outclassed in a surprising number of series.

If you believe those things you state, you should provide evidence of some sort. Otherwise it’s a claim that isn’t backed.

We know who the more versatile scorer is, more dominant athlete even for his height, pioneer of the game, and so on.

Chris Paul isn’t even close to the best shooter at his position, seeing how far ahead Nash and Curry are. Jordan’s midrange stats are so far ahead of Paul’s that that’s not a discussion. Add a fade-away to that equation and the footwork as well. If it was a discussion, Paul would have had success in the league.


Paul is obviously a much better shooter than MJ was. Outside of the 3 seasons where the 3 point line was shortened, MJ was about a career 28.5% 3 point shooter. Paul is a career 37% 3 point shooter and one of the better mid-range shooters to have ever played also — and he’s the smallest of the top tier mid range shooters.

He’s also 7 times all defensive first team, and 2 times all defensive second team — and you acknowledged it but then swept it under the rug in the same breath . He’s one of the ATG defenders at his position. He’s also a great rebounder for his size/position. Multiple seasons averaging over 5 per game and a career 4.5 average.

The whole point is to imagine Paul being 6’6. So he had his shortcomings that a lot of people attribute to his size(when healthy) and he wasn’t DPOY because of his small stature.

Not really arguing that he’d be better but some of your argument is all over the place and not mired in fact or is generally irrelevant to the discussion.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#22 » by Jaivl » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:22 pm

Comparing 6'6" Paul's and Jordan's shooting prowess is about as stupid as comparing their passing ability.

I'll wait for the revolutionary evidence that proves me wrong, being that midget Paul already hovers around the same midrange %s as MJ with a higher percentage of self-created shots (but obv lesser volume) and blows him out of the water beyond that range.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#23 » by bledredwine » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:50 pm

The amount of arrogance and ignorance here is stunning.

So far here is what you Paul fans have added collectively-

1. Paul’s career 3 point average vs Jordan’s, including Jordan’s years of shooting .5 a game (usually long range buzzer beaters)

2. Stated that Paul’s midrange is better when the midrange thread indicated Jordan is far ahead

3. Stated Paul’s achievements, such as 7 1st team defense, all of which Jordan surpassed.


Meanwhile, I have you every series and failure against players of his own position. I’ve shown the logical approach, which is at least to say if Paul would be GOAT at 6’6, he should at least dominate his position, which if anything he’s been dominated by the elite point guards.

Logically speaking, you guys look terrible right now. And calling Paul an all time great defender or shooter is hilarious :lol:

Payton and Kidd whoop his ass! Hell, Beverly whoops his ass defensively.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#24 » by bledredwine » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:58 pm

Amare_1_Knicks wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
There are fewer and fewer reasons supporting Chris Paul’s greatness now that the “not enough help” reason is long gone. He’s now played on teams for about seven seasons where he was 2nd option to a better player, or debatably first if you truly believe that he was Batman to Blake’s better seasons. He’s had little success in this league and has struggled multiple times, being outplayed in series by players like Parker, Westbrook, etc.

That in itself should put an end to the conjecture. That said....

How is shooting even close?

You’re talking the best midrange shooter of all time, and someone who averaged over .400 from 3 in seasons when he chose to take threes.

Jordan is the 6th leading guard in rebounds. Where does Paul land? Jordan is 9 time first team defense and DPOY. Though he’s had his share of first team defense, Jordan still defeats him. On top of this, Paul was never a DPOY caliber defender.

Jordan always defeated his matchups. I’ve already posted about this and Paul’s been outclassed in a surprising number of series.

If you believe those things you state, you should provide evidence of some sort. Otherwise it’s a claim that isn’t backed.

We know who the more versatile scorer is, more dominant athlete even for his height, pioneer of the game, and so on.

Chris Paul isn’t even close to the best shooter at his position, seeing how far ahead Nash and Curry are. Jordan’s midrange stats are so far ahead of Paul’s that that’s not a discussion. Add a fade-away to that equation and the footwork as well. If it was a discussion, Paul would have had success in the league.


Paul is obviously a much better shooter than MJ was. Outside of the 3 seasons where the 3 point line was shortened, MJ was about a career 28.5% 3 point shooter. Paul is a career 37% 3 point shooter and one of the better mid-range shooters to have ever played also — and he’s the smallest of the top tier mid range shooters.

He’s also 7 times all defensive first team, and 2 times all defensive second team — and you acknowledged it but then swept it under the rug in the same breath . He’s one of the ATG defenders at his position. He’s also a great rebounder for his size/position. Multiple seasons averaging over 5 per game and a career 4.5 average.

The whole point is to imagine Paul being 6’6. So he had his shortcomings that a lot of people attribute to his size(when healthy) and he wasn’t DPOY because of his small stature.

Not really arguing that he’d be better but some of your argument is all over the place and not mired in fact or is generally irrelevant to the discussion.


Swept under the rug? Jordan has more with 9! :D

If you want to talk “swept under a rug”, why don’t you address my post stating all of Paul’s playoff failures and allowing elite point guards to light him up throughout his career? He’s such a great defender, right? What excuses do you have?
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#25 » by Lost92Bricks » Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:57 pm

Well maybe he wouldn't have those playoff failures and would dominate his position...if he was 6'6 instead of being one of the smallest players in the league?

Get it?

The whole point is Paul would be more dominant than he was if he wasn't at a height disadvantage.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#26 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:39 pm

Jaivl wrote:
70sFan wrote:I'm not sure about Paul. He would be amazing, but how much better would 6'6 CP3 be than peak Oscar?

Depending on the Paul you use, you either have way more range, way more quickness or a fair bit of both. And, most importantly, the defensive edge alone probably covers the difference.

Of course, defense is huge advantage (though Oscar was good defender) and quickness could be a factor, but I'm not sure I agree with range - Oscar didn't have reasons to shoot from long three distances - and Oscar was deadly shooter.

He would be likely a bit more athletic and better defensive version of Oscar, which is probably enough to take him over Jordan to be honest.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#27 » by Franco » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:20 pm

bledredwine wrote:
eminence wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
How is shooting even close? What??

You’re talking the best midrange shooter of all time, and someone who averaged over .400 from 3 in seasons when he chose to take threes.

Jordan is the 6th leading guard in rebounds. Where does Paul land? Jordan is 2nd leader in steals all positions. Where is Paul? Jordan is 9 time first team defense and DPOY. Where is Paul?

Jordan always defeated his matchups. Where is Paul?

If you believe those things you state, you should provide justification or evidence of some sort. Otherwise it’s a claim that isn’t backed.

We know who the more versatile scorer is, more dominant athlete even for his height, pioneer of the game, and so on.

Chris Paul isn’t even close to the best shooter at his position, seeing how far ahead Nash and Curry are. Jordan’s midrange stats are so far ahead of Paul’s that it’s not a discussion. If it was, Paul would have had success in the league.


CP3 is 10th in steals (MJ 3rd behind Stockton/Kidd), approximately same per game and per possession numbers. CP3 is 7x 1st team defense (2x 2nd team).


2009 First round
Chauncey Billups
23-4-7 on 48%. 1.2 TOpg and 66% 3PT

Chris Paul
17-4-10 on 41%, 4.8 TOpg

2014 1st round
Steph Curry
23-4-8 on 44%

Chris Paul
17-5-9 on 42%

2014 WCSF
Russell Westbrook
28-6-9 on 49% and 50/57 FT (89%)

Chris Paul
23-4-12 on 51% and 18/24 FTs (75%)

2012 WCSF
Chris Paul 13-4-9 on 37% only 5/5 FTs
Tony Parker 17-3-8 on 36% and 24/29 FTs

2008 WCSF vs Paul
Tony Parker from regular season 18.8 pig 6 app on 49% to
19.4 pug 5.7 apg on 49%

In the 2016 playoffs, Lillard had a very poor shooting series, but not because of Paul. Lillard shot an unusually high 60% (for a PG) when going against Paul's defense.

Paul also got lit up in 2017 1st round by George Hill and Gordon Hayward.

I never understood the perception of Paul. Paul can't even defend or dominate elite guys at his own size. The DPOY voting isn't close either.
Chris Paul has not lived up to the reputation that some here give him at all. It'd be one thing if I posted a series or two, but he's gotten lit up so many times, that this must be posted as a reminder. For a while, I was refuting his defensive claims by stating his multiple failures, but couldn't specifically back it up. It's good to know that I have the stats and recollection to remind us that even if you see his defense as elite, he has not lived up to that reputation, certainly not in the playoffs.


I’m not going to pick a side, but JFC is this a fast way to ruim your credibility. If you’re going to post he stationed, at least be consistent with it, instead of nitpicking every specific series in a different way.

Why not post TOs in most series, why include 3p% in some and not in others, or just FT%...? This is shady as hell.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#28 » by bledredwine » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:40 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:Well maybe he wouldn't have those playoff failures and would dominate his position...if he was 6'6 instead of being one of the smallest players in the league?

Get it?

The whole point is Paul would be more dominant than he was if he wasn't at a height disadvantage.



That would be brilliant if these weren’t other point guards dominating Paul and putting up monster numbers.

Get it? If he had six more inches, he’d be defending shooting guards his size instead of point guards his size.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#29 » by euroleague » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:42 am

bledredwine wrote:
Lost92Bricks wrote:Well maybe he wouldn't have those playoff failures and would dominate his position...if he was 6'6 instead of being one of the smallest players in the league?

Get it?

The whole point is Paul would be more dominant than he was if he wasn't at a height disadvantage.



That would be brilliant if these weren’t other point guards dominating Paul and putting up monster numbers.

Get it? If he had six more inches, he’d be defending shooting guards his size instead of point guards his size.


We are assuming the same quickness and skills. So, he’d still be a PG
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#30 » by Lost92Bricks » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:03 am

bledredwine wrote:That would be brilliant if these weren’t other point guards dominating Paul and putting up monster numbers.

Get it? If he had six more inches, he’d be defending shooting guards his size instead of point guards his size.

lol you cherrypicked like two series in his career and one where he was injured where he got "dominated" as if that was a norm. What a joke.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#31 » by bledredwine » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:57 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:
bledredwine wrote:That would be brilliant if these weren’t other point guards dominating Paul and putting up monster numbers.

Get it? If he had six more inches, he’d be defending shooting guards his size instead of point guards his size.

lol you cherrypicked like two series in his career and one where he was injured where he got "dominated" as if that was a norm. What a joke.


The joke is you stated that I “cherry picked” two series when I used five series!

Read the actual post. They’re all in bold and shouldn’t be hard to count! They’re literally the majority of series that Paul has played against other elite point guards.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#32 » by Pg81 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:24 pm

Jason Kidd. I shudder to think what he could have done to opponents with MJs size. He was already one of the rare defenders at pg which had great impact. With MJs size he might have become an all time great defender.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#33 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:33 pm

Taller and longer Jerry West would be scary.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#34 » by Sublime187 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:42 pm

Pg81 wrote:Jason Kidd. I shudder to think what he could have done to opponents with MJs size. He was already one of the rare defenders at pg which had great impact. With MJs size he might have become an all time great defender.


I mean size wise they weren't very different. MJ was probably 6'4.5 without shoes and Kidd is probably 6'3. I think MJ did have the length advantage though.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#35 » by No-more-rings » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:49 pm

Sublime187 wrote:
Pg81 wrote:Jason Kidd. I shudder to think what he could have done to opponents with MJs size. He was already one of the rare defenders at pg which had great impact. With MJs size he might have become an all time great defender.


I mean size wise they weren't very different. MJ was probably 6'4.5 without shoes and Kidd is probably 6'3. I think MJ did have the length advantage though.

Also, I don’t see how 2 more inches turns Kidd from a mediocre scorer to a great one.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#36 » by penbeast0 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:51 pm

West and Kidd add 2-3 inches (Dwyane Wade would be a similar match). Not sure just how much extra value that adds. Some but not ridiculous like adding over a foot to Muggsy Bogues. Heck, if I was 14 inches taller, I might have been an NBA player (the next Chuck Nevitt!).
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#37 » by ShotCreator » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:12 pm

70sFan wrote:Taller and longer Jerry West would be scary.

West gets listed as 6’2” but I am sure he was at least 6’4. Likely around 6’5”. 6’2 is his listed height from WVU and it never officially changed.



Found this too. Apparently with the wingspan of a 6’9” guy.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#38 » by Lost92Bricks » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:47 pm

bledredwine wrote:The joke is you stated that I “cherry picked” two series when I used five series!

Read the actual post. They’re all in bold and shouldn’t be hard to count! They’re literally the majority of series that Paul has played against other elite point guards.

Yeah, and he got "dominated" in like two of them. You used series like the 2008 Spurs series where he outscored, outassisted, outshot Tony Parker by a large margin as an example of him being "dominated".

Chris averaged 23.7 PPG, 10.7 APG, 2.6 SPG with only 2.3 turnovers while shooting over 50% in that series and he somehow got dominated. **** outta here.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#39 » by bledredwine » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Lost92Bricks wrote:
bledredwine wrote:The joke is you stated that I “cherry picked” two series when I used five series!

Read the actual post. They’re all in bold and shouldn’t be hard to count! They’re literally the majority of series that Paul has played against other elite point guards.

Yeah, and he got "dominated" in like two of them. You used series like the 2008 Spurs series where he outscored, outassisted, outshot Tony Parker by a large margin as an example of him being "dominated".

Chris averaged 23.7 PPG, 10.7 APG, 2.6 SPG with only 2.3 turnovers while shooting over 50% in that series and he somehow got dominated. **** outta here.


What a ridiculously biased thing to say. He got whooped in every series mentioned and only Westbrook was close.

That said, I had a bigger point that you missed. If he’s even the GOAT for his size, which he clearly isn’t, or even close to the best defender, why did he let those guys put up monster numbers, bigger than his own? And I’m not going to bother posting all of his chokes and missed opportunities again. That’s a whole different ballgame as well.

I’m sorry but the proof works against this player that you’re a fan of. I’m not sure why you deny stats that are right in front of you on your screen.

Chauncey had 6 more points per game on way better efficiency, 3 less rebounds. Winner Chauncey, no question.

Curry had 6 more points per game on better efficiency, 1 less rebound and assist per game. Winner Curry

Westbrook you could make an argument was a wash if I’m being kind to you, but Paul let him average 28 points per game, which is absurd.

Parker - 4 more points per game with one less assist and rebound. Regardless, Paul’s efficiency sucked at 37 percent! Yeah and six inches makes him the GOAT, right? Get out of here with that.

Lillard also shot 60 percent against Paul. And you guys were trying to say he’s a better defender than Jordan?

I’m sorry but that’s a ton of series against elite point guards that I just listed. Paul did not do well, let alone in the conversation for best at his height. If he was, he’d at least dominate 6 footers. But he can’t handle the elite point guards.
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Re: Would any players have been better than Mike if they were the same size? 

Post#40 » by Vladimir777 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:54 pm

bledredwine wrote:I dig the Mugsy mention above and was close to naming him myself.

Anyway, I honestly believe that Nate Robinson, and Allen Iverson both would have been incredible if they were taller. If he wasn’t injured, taller Derrick Rose would have been scary as well. I’ve never seen a player struggle simply due to their size as much as Nate (exception Mugsy). Still, he was an effective passer and legitimate scorer.

Iverson’s efficiency would have skyrocketed. But we’re any of these guys elite defenders?

Perhaps they could have rivaled Jordan, but the tough part about Jordan is not just the size/flexibility but his fundamentals. I’ve dedicated my life as a pianist and know just how important fundamentals are to everything, especially to perform at a high level. Often, these fundamentals are perceived as more physical talent.

Point being, I haven’t seen a player really close to Jordan’s fundamentals and all-around mechanics. He had soft landings, jumped off of either leg and both legs (almost every player in history gravitates towards one), the quickest first step in the league (drew cat comparisons), was seemingly ambidexterous, and an elite touch, coupled with pioneered moves to defeat defenses. I’m still surprised when I watch games from certain years - when he misses shots, it often goes in and out or rolls out. He had a weird ability to put a soft touch/spin on the ball that allowed even further shots to roll in.

Anyway, I’m obviously beginning to fanboy. But the point is, all of these fundamentals, big paws, and a vertical is what allowed him to make what we call circus shots a regular part of his game. His body was always in control, even through contact, assuming he wasn’t knocked over. Kawhi shows flashes of this, as did Jimmy Butler (which is why I was one of three posters on the Bulls forum who said he’d be a star when we all wanted to trade him).

On top of this, I know that it’s such a Skip Bayless thing to say, but it’s true; I have yet to see someone as driven and competitive, on the court and off. All coaches, acquaintances and players attest to this, as does his clutch play. We’ve seen a lot of freaks with amazing technique come into the league. Look at Giannis, Robinson, Lebron, Shaq, etc, but the trifecta of those things, fundamentals and a borderline insane competitiveness (even to the point where he was grilling teammates like an a-hole) is what made Jordan a majority consensus goat. That, and that time he dunked from half court over all of the Monstars.


I didn’t know you were a pianist. I really want to learn someday (need to pick up the guitar again sometime soon, but piano is a lifelong goal).

What kind of music do you play? Classical? Jazz? Rock?

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