'19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion!

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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#161 » by E-Balla » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:09 am

LeBron totally didn't learn to play in the post after 2011.

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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#162 » by E-Balla » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:10 am

Me, 70sFan, and Spaceman the new Big 3.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#163 » by 70sFan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:16 am

E-Balla wrote:Me, 70sFan, and Spaceman the new Big 3.

I like it 8-)
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#164 » by Sark » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:33 am

E-Balla wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
70sFan wrote:Sure, make Zion playing like 90% of the league... Who cares that he'd be far less effective in that role?

So far his post ups look more than optimal to me. Some people just hate post game for whatever reason...


The modern game is tailor made for post players to dominate. Every team only plays 1 big and switches are so easy to force. Plus you have amazing spacing and with all the 3 point shooting it’s impossible to both double you and take away the pass. Hakeem would be Moore efective now than he was in the 90s.

Nate Duncan also wrote an article about how crazy teams are for not crashing the offensive glass more in this small era. One freak can out jump an entire team of wings by himself.

Zion is essentially a market inefficiency in and of himself.

This is literally the argument I've been making for Moses the last few years. Put Moses in the league now and with his strength he's arguably the best offensive player in the league. I erroneously thought Jahlil Okafor would be strong enough and tough enough inside to be that guy for the new era. Looks like I was a little off. :lol:



Jahlil is strong enough to do that, but his defense and work ethic are so bad that it cancels any positives he brings.

He was putting on clinics his rookie year.

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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#165 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:18 am

limbo wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Is Montrezl the best post player in the league?


Idk, he's averaging roughly the same % from 2. Zion slightly better FT shooter on a smaller sample size and a fluky debut from 3 make him a bit more efficient on larger volume, but that's about it.


Bro what are you on about zions literally thing is he rebounds third of his shots and 81.1% of his shots either go in or are rebounded by him

Also mans really just went goran dragic over shawn kemp
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#166 » by bleeds_purple » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:54 am

Watching this kid effortlessly move Adams around in the paint like he was a small child was truly a sight to behold.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#167 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:57 am

HE TILTED THE BACKBOARD
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#168 » by E-Balla » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:40 am

Sark wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
The modern game is tailor made for post players to dominate. Every team only plays 1 big and switches are so easy to force. Plus you have amazing spacing and with all the 3 point shooting it’s impossible to both double you and take away the pass. Hakeem would be Moore efective now than he was in the 90s.

Nate Duncan also wrote an article about how crazy teams are for not crashing the offensive glass more in this small era. One freak can out jump an entire team of wings by himself.

Zion is essentially a market inefficiency in and of himself.

This is literally the argument I've been making for Moses the last few years. Put Moses in the league now and with his strength he's arguably the best offensive player in the league. I erroneously thought Jahlil Okafor would be strong enough and tough enough inside to be that guy for the new era. Looks like I was a little off. :lol:



Jahlil is strong enough to do that, but his defense and work ethic are so bad that it cancels any positives he brings.

He was putting on clinics his rookie year.


Don't remind me. All the potential (and ability to make buckets inside) to do it. None of the hustle and nastiness.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#169 » by 70sFan » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:06 am

E-Balla wrote:
Sark wrote:
E-Balla wrote:This is literally the argument I've been making for Moses the last few years. Put Moses in the league now and with his strength he's arguably the best offensive player in the league. I erroneously thought Jahlil Okafor would be strong enough and tough enough inside to be that guy for the new era. Looks like I was a little off. :lol:



Jahlil is strong enough to do that, but his defense and work ethic are so bad that it cancels any positives he brings.

He was putting on clinics his rookie year.


Don't remind me. All the potential (and ability to make buckets inside) to do it. None of the hustle and nastiness.

He was my favorite young player back then. Amazing inside skills, such a shame that he never tried to improve his defense and he didn't want to play aggresive on the boards. When he was motivated, he was a joy to watch.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#170 » by E-Balla » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:16 pm

70sFan wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Sark wrote:

Jahlil is strong enough to do that, but his defense and work ethic are so bad that it cancels any positives he brings.

He was putting on clinics his rookie year.


Don't remind me. All the potential (and ability to make buckets inside) to do it. None of the hustle and nastiness.

He was my favorite young player back then. Amazing inside skills, such a shame that he never tried to improve his defense and he didn't want to play aggresive on the boards. When he was motivated, he was a joy to watch.

Even without playing D he would've been fine (he's no worse than KAT on that end). It's the offensive rebounding that killed him. If he was swallowing offensive boards like I thought he would he'd be a top 10 offensive weapon in the game. 70% at the rim and 50% from 3-10 with the type of moves he had? Absolutely crazy.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#171 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:41 pm

I obviously dont buy the postplay cant be effecient argument at all but even if someone assumes its true zion literally doesnt have any of the problems you argue with post play

Ball stopping - zion post possessions take about 3 seconds, he gets it, moves his defender out of the way, shoots it, then probably rebounds and scores it if its a miss

Getting the ball/post entry pass turnovers - mans is a monster at getting into position since no one is gonna push him out of position, and guys like lonzo are incredible at passing it to him

Effeciency - I mean halfcourt possessions arent supposed to be crazy effecient in the first place but man is shooting 58% on post ups and rebounding a bunch of his misses because of the nature of post ups, so i doubt thats a huge issue either

Again i dont think post play has a ceiling or wtv but zions hardly a traditional post player anyway
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#172 » by Mazter » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:52 pm

E-Balla wrote:Charles Barkley was 64% on 2 pointers from 87-90 in way more crowded paints. Unless you have a team full of 42% 3 point shooters that's not a better strategy than having Chuck in the paint.

That's before taking into account how many more offensive rebounds you collect as you shoot closer to the basket.

Giannis can't shoot and look at how dominant he is. And he's nowhere near the offensive rebounder Chuck and Zion are.

This looks true, but really isn't. Charles Barkley did that on 14 2 pointers per game. He and/or his team still needed to find a solution for the other 70+ shot in the game. The 3-point shots are taking care of 33+ shots per game and are creating space inside for another 30+ shots within 5 feet. These are league averages. No Chuck or Zion in the paint is going to give you 60+ shots at 55+eFG%. They might help or make it easier but they would still be dependent of others.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#173 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:20 pm

A few things im curious by though

Zion probably has an absurd about of offensive rebounding gravity, probably more than other high level offensive rebounders, since hes usually marked by a noncenter and generally powerforwards just cant hang with him on the offensive glass, i wonder how his teammates offensive rebounding is when hes on the floor because the center often overoworries about zion and favors is like lol im here too

Like in terms of his pure rebounding numbers his offensive rebounding numbers arent crazy (ok like in terms of they arent the best in the league they are top 5 which is absurd for a non center) but the teams offensive rebounding when hes on the floor is literally absurd

(League leaders in offensive rebound rate are the knicks at 25.4%, followed by the lakers at 25%. Pelicans with zion is at 31.6%, which is also better than lakers with howard on or any cavs with thompson on).

Some of this is prolly due to small sample but his rebounding gravity does seem pretty insane esp considering hes not usually the center (which makes it more effective). The bucks game three guys were boxing him out at once at times lol.

Also some might say this is why their offense is good or bad but the effeciency has been about the same as the lakers with lebron on or the mavs with luka on btw. According to nbawowy it doesnt seem like this is cuz of some crazy luck or anything, three point shooting and free throw shooting are both lower with zion on, although since his rim gravity rating is already top 3 in the league i doubt they get less open shots from three and his ft shooting isnt bad enough to drag the team down like that).

Favors played around half of zions minutes with zion on the court (so like 50% of the time zion is playing they have been with him) so its not cuz of crazy rebounding squads

With favors out the rebounding drops to 28% which is still best in the league. Hayes only played 10 of these minutes too so thats still a crazy good number considering melli is usually at the 4 in those squads

(Zions offensive rebounding is also still quite great, at 14.4%)

Small sample but something to keep an eye on for sure. The 3 main things for offense are effeciency, Offensive Rebounding, and Turnovers, we can get into the nuances but i feel that the main concern is zion might not be great for a teams turnovers in terms of playstyle, although personally I disagree.

Just because hes a young player and this is the first time in a really good offensive system its kind if expected hes gonna make some dumb mistakes off ball. He has great instincts when to cut how to seal his defender but sometimes he can be out of position off ball in the wrong spots mistime his cuts etc. once he gets better at that (and its fully an experience thing here, his instincts are superb) itll be way better

Otoh, he may have GOAT level offensive rebounding impact and will obviously help a teams effeciency a ton, so offensively the ceiling is kind of crazy

When he becomes the number 1 option on offense itll be interesting to see how many free throws hes gonna get.

Once again, incredibly small sample at 140 minutes, but hes averaging 14 free throws per 36 with ingram off the floor

If we wanna get crazier with the small samples, holiday and ingram out he only played 65 minutes so basically its useless tbh, but he does average 17.7 free throws per 36, and 47 points per 36 here

These samples are too small to come to any conclusions and obviously he just isnt gonna average anywhere near that many but he doesnt seem to be a bad enough ft shooter that you can hack him, and obviously you kinda have to foul him, so itll be interesting to see how good he'll be when/if hes the undisputed number 1 option.

I feel because hes not huge in terms of height they wont be able to get away with hacking him like they did to shaq at times either
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#174 » by E-Balla » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:46 pm

Mazter wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Charles Barkley was 64% on 2 pointers from 87-90 in way more crowded paints. Unless you have a team full of 42% 3 point shooters that's not a better strategy than having Chuck in the paint.

That's before taking into account how many more offensive rebounds you collect as you shoot closer to the basket.

Giannis can't shoot and look at how dominant he is. And he's nowhere near the offensive rebounder Chuck and Zion are.

This looks true, but really isn't. Charles Barkley did that on 14 2 pointers per game. He and/or his team still needed to find a solution for the other 70+ shot in the game. The 3-point shots are taking care of 33+ shots per game and are creating space inside for another 30+ shots within 5 feet. These are league averages. No Chuck or Zion in the paint is going to give you 60+ shots at 55+eFG%. They might help or make it easier but they would still be dependent of others.

Is any singular 3 point shooter giving you 33+ shots? What sense does this make, of course one player regularly isn't taking 30 shots, the defense will usually double and the post player will kick out for 3. It's not like Zion is taking a bunch of shots a night but the Pels offense still looks strong with him playing this way and they still get 3s.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#175 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:38 am

70sFan wrote:Do you see his cellings as higher than Barkley's?


I'm just going to say yes and see in about 7 years or so and see where his peak is at. I feel like he should definitely be better on D, and offensively I think I can trust him to hit the 3 at a higher level than barkley, along with the fact that he has more moves than Barkley (based on what I saw in college).
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#176 » by 70sFan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:00 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
70sFan wrote:Do you see his cellings as higher than Barkley's?


I'm just going to say yes and see in about 7 years or so and see where his peak is at. I feel like he should definitely be better on D, and offensively I think I can trust him to hit the 3 at a higher level than barkley, along with the fact that he has more moves than Barkley (based on what I saw in college).

More moves? I haven't seen a lot of his college games, but Barkley was very crafty anf skilled scorer. So far, Zion is not close to him in that aspect to me, at least NBA Zion.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#177 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:11 am

70sFan wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
70sFan wrote:Do you see his cellings as higher than Barkley's?


I'm just going to say yes and see in about 7 years or so and see where his peak is at. I feel like he should definitely be better on D, and offensively I think I can trust him to hit the 3 at a higher level than barkley, along with the fact that he has more moves than Barkley (based on what I saw in college).

More moves? I haven't seen a lot of his college games, but Barkley was very crafty anf skilled scorer. So far, Zion is not close to him in that aspect to me, at least NBA Zion.


He hasn't shown in the NBA, because New Orleans hasn't run a lot of plays for him on the perimeter



You can see he has a very fluid handle he used to attack from the perimeter here.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#178 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:12 am

Since there was discussion about Lebron's post game earlier, I feel like it is probably a good idea if I post this.
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#179 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:29 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Since there was discussion about Lebron's post game earlier, I feel like it is probably a good idea if I post this.
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Nba stats hS him at 0.94 so this is pretty confusing lol
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Re: '19-'20 Zion Williamson Thread - Road to Zion! 

Post#180 » by Mazter » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:42 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:Since there was discussion about Lebron's post game earlier, I feel like it is probably a good idea if I post this.
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Nba stats hS him at 0.94 so this is pretty confusing lol

There is NBA Stats Tracking Post ups and NBA Stats Play type Post ups. The one used here is tracking.

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