Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 2005 or earlier)

[penbeast0]

BAA/NBA/ABA playing careers only; we are not including college, Olympic, foreign, etc. You can select up to 10 players (you do not HAVE to fill out your list). They do not have to be in order. The 10 players with the most votes make the HOF. Voting will stay open as long as there is active interest. We take the top 10 votegetters, in case of a tie, I will go back and ask everyone to vote on just the tied players, ranking them in order with just 1st place votes counting, then 2nd if 1st ties again, etc.

Voting:

Michael Jordan (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Scottie Pippen (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Hakeem Olajuwon (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Patrick Ewing (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Karl Malone (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
David Robinson (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
John Stockton (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Reggie Miller (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Chris Mullin (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ)
Horace Grant (trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0)

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

Retired 1960 or before

Retired 1965 or before

Retired 1970 or before

Retired 1975 or before

Retired 1980 or before

Retired 1985 or before

Retired 1990 or before

Retired 1995 or before

Retired 2000 or before

[Narigo]

Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Hakeem Olajuwon
Patrick Ewing
Karl Malone
David Robinson
John Stockton
Chris Mullin
Reggie Miller
Terry Porter

Very stacked class. Had to leave out Shawn Kemp and Tim Hardaway

[penbeast0]

Some guys to consider :

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olujawon
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson

Scottie Pippen
Terry Cummings
Chris Mullin
Derrick Coleman
Tim Hardaway
Larry Johnson

Latrell Sprewell
Shawn Kemp
Detlef Schrempf
Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond
Glen Rice

(plus holdovers)
Mark Price
Bernard King
Lenny Wilkens
Mark Eaton
Buck Williams
Spencer Haywood

[penbeast0]

Some interesting comps:

Terry Cummings v. Larry Johnson v. Shawn Kemp v. Buck Williams
People forget just how good Terry Cummings was pre-injury.

Chris Mullin v. Tim Hardaway v. Mitch Richmond v. Glen Rice v. Terry Porter
Reggie is probably a lock; which of the others go in.

Locks (including Reggie):
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olujawon
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Scottie Pippen
Reggie Miller

That only leaves 2 spots open.

For my last two I go with Terry Cummings, always impressed with him though he flew under the radar quite a bit, and Chris Mullin, very close with Mitch Richmond, but I'm an efficiency fan and Mullin was always extremely efficient.

[Dr Positivity]

Lock

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olujawon
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Scottie Pippen
Reggie Miller

I’m looking at Price and Mullin for the last spots. I think I rate them over Porter who’s star longevity isn’t amazing either.

[Dutchball97]

There are 8 pretty clear locks:

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Karl Malone
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
John Stockton
Scottie Pippen
Reggie Miller

For my last two spots I'm going with:

Shawn Kemp
Chris Mullin

Hard to leave out Bernard King but I think Mullin deserves it more.

[70sFan]

I will make my list later, but this class is very stacked. Honestly, this might be the best class so far.

[penbeast0]

Terry Cummings v. Shawn Kemp

Career, then peak:

Cummings G 1183, MIN 28.7, PTS 16.4, TRB 7.3, AST 1.9, TS% .520, PER 18.3, WS 91.1

1984-85 (MIL) MIN 34.5, PTS 23.6, REB 9.6, AST 2.9, TS% .536, Traded for Marques Johnson and Bucks improved from 50 to 59 wins
PLAYOFFS MIN 38.9, PTS 27.5, REB 8.8, AST 2.5, TS% .630 won first round then were soundly beaten by Moses/Doc/Barkley Sixers

Kemp G 1051, MIN 27.9, PTS 14.6, TRB 8.4, AST 1.6, TS% .555, PER 19.1, WS 89.5

1996-97 (SEA) MIN 34.0, PTS 18.7, REB 10.0, AST 1.9, TS% .587 Last of Shawn's 4 big years in Seattle, 96 was better RS
PLAYOFFS MIN 36.8, PTS 21.6, REB 12.3, AST 3.0, TS% .585 Seattle made a strong run to the final, losing to Jordan's Bulls

Kemp is the more physically dominant player (though I always remember Terry Cummings wearing headbands around his biceps, he was a dedicated weight room guy), Cummings had more of an inside/outside game. Kemp is a stronger post protector, Cummings could swing to the 3. Kemp had the amazing dunks and a stronger defensive rep. Cummings never got mentioned as a strong defender but had good defensive impact on both the Bucks and the Spurs. The numbers are close and I can see taking Kemp but if I was building a championship squad, I'd want Cummings; Kemp's immaturity was always an issue even in the Sonics' best seasons.

[trex_8063]

Wow, so many of the big dogs are unleashed this round.

I'm just going to put some tentative picks (which can be used as final if not updated) out there now. The last two are the only ones I'd even remotely consider switching. I'll list some HM's I'd consider as alternates: they're really the only ones who are close enough for me......

Michael Jordan (duh, king of class)
Hakeem Olajuwon
Karl Malone
John Stockton
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Scottie Pippen
Reggie Miller

Horace Grant
Terry Porter

HM's: Tim Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Vlade Divac, maybe Jeff Hornacek or Chris Mullin (and the Walt Bellamy I've long since given up on ). Mitch Richmond and Buck Williams not far off either (sort of in there with Lenny Wilkens); very outside candidates for me, tbh.

[penbeast0]

Dang, Horace is in the conversation, isn't he. I pull my "players to look at" list from the All-NBA teams so he didn't show up but he was a wonderful player, I may sub him in for Chris Mullin or Terry Cummings if someone can convince me. I think Terry Porter is a favorite but isn't quite at this level. Again, would love to see some impact stats on these guys rather than just relying on eye test.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

There are seven super consensus locks + PC superstar Reggie Miller that I am sure will all get 100% of votes.

Now I must figure out the last two.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[penbeast0]

Voting through Ryoga Hibiki:

Michael Jordan (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))
Scottie Pippen (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))
Hakeem Olajuwon (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))
Patrick Ewing (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))

Karl Malone (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))
David Robinson (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))
John Stockton (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))
Reggie Miller (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki))

Chris Mullin (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki)

Terry Porter (Narigo, trex_8063)
Horace Grant (trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki)

Terry Cummings (penbeast0)
Shawn Kemp (Dutchball97)

[trex_8063]

Dang, Horace is in the conversation, isn't he. I pull my "players to look at" list from the All-NBA teams so he didn't show up but he was a wonderful player, I may sub him in for Chris Mullin or Terry Cummings if someone can convince me. I think Terry Porter is a favorite but isn't quite at this level. Again, would love to see some impact stats on these guys rather than just relying on eye test.

Obviously not all in prime for same amount [if any] of following, but.....

'94 rs APM
Horace Grant: +2.91 (20th in league)
Terry Porter: +1.39
Chris Mullin: +0.48
Terry Cummings: -2.07

'95 rs APM
Horace Grant: +3.58 (11th in league)
Terry Porter: -1.51
Chris Mullin: -1.74
Terry Cummings: -2.06

'96 rs APM
Horace Grant: +3.46 (10th in league)
Terry Cummings: +1.59
Terry Porter: +0.48
Chris Mullin: -1.67

'97 NPI RAPM
Horace Grant: +3.25 (30th in league)
Terry Porter: +1.62
Terry Cummings: -0.77
Chris Mullin: -2.02

'98 PI RAPM
Terry Porter: +2.67
Horace Grant: +2.26
Terry Cummings: +0.48
Chris Mullin: +0.08

'99 PI RAPM
Horace Grant: +1.17
Terry Porter: +1.16
Terry Cummings: +0.43
Chris Mullin: +0.08

'00 PI RAPM
Terry Porter: +3.99 (20th in league)
Horace Grant: +0.56
Chris Mullin: -0.35
Terry Cummings: -0.90

'01 NPI RAPM
Terry Porter: +2.7 (tied for 24th in league)
Horace Grant: +1.5
Chris Mullin: -1.6

'02 PI RAPM
Horace Grant: +0.8
Terry Porter: -0.2

'03 PI RAPM
Horace Grant: +0.8

'04 PI RAPM
Horace Grant: -0.2

[eminence]

I haven't seen Mookie Blaylock mentioned yet, and he's a very strong contender to me, even in such a strong class.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Besides the consensus 8 (wow, what a class) my votes are
- Horace Grant: that's a very high impact player for many years in a team who won or went very deep in the post season multiple times. Very modern player, mobile, great rotations, good mid range shooting that I think his range could have been expanded to the 3pt line in the modern game. I favor this kind of player, contributing for 4 rings, to more offensively minded player who couldn't manage (where good enough) to lead a team to success but not easily fit to a secondary role
- Mullin: because of this my second pick is Chris Mullin, thanks to his last few years in Indiana, where he showed how impactful he could be with his body broken giving a clear indication he would have been an amazing ceiling raiser to a great team in his prime as well

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I haven't seen Mookie Blaylock mentioned yet, and he's a very strong contender to me, even in such a strong class.

he should be in for cultural influence...

[Dr Positivity]

Vote

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olujawon
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Scottie Pippen
Reggie Miller
Horace Grant
Chris Mullin

[worldjbfree]

What a stacked class. I have eight locks (which is a high for me) and went to a full ten picks. List:

Patrick Ewing
Tim Hardaway
Michael Jordan
Shawn Kemp
Karl Malone
Reggie Miller
Hakeem Olajuwon
Scottie Pippen
David Robinson
John Stockton

[penbeast0]

Voting:

Michael Jordan (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)
Scottie Pippen (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)
Hakeem Olajuwon (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)
Patrick Ewing (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)

Karl Malone (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)
David Robinson (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)
John Stockton (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)
Reggie Miller (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree)

Chris Mullin (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity)

Horace Grant (trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity)

Terry Porter (Narigo, trex_8063)
Shawn Kemp (Dutchball97. worldjbfree)

Terry Cummings (penbeast0)
Tim Hardaway (worldjbfree)

[trex_8063]

Dang, Horace is in the conversation, isn't he. I pull my "players to look at" list from the All-NBA teams so he didn't show up but he was a wonderful player, I may sub him in for Chris Mullin or Terry Cummings if someone can convince me. I think Terry Porter is a favorite but isn't quite at this level. Again, would love to see some impact stats on these guys rather than just relying on eye test.

I put most of the available impact data on post #13. Beyond that, I'm going to make the general case for Horace Grant, who I really think belongs.....


I think Grant is frequently overlooked or disregarded for the usual reason(s): he didn’t have an extensive scoring repertoire and thus didn’t score a lot of points. He never came close to that 20 ppg threshold I’d mentioned in a prior thread, and in fact only once topped 15 ppg. Most people see that and assume “well, he couldn’t have been all that good.”
For the very same reason, he’d frequently be overlooked by the media for certain accolades [the ones you’d referenced] as well.

And I’m not trying to give the impression Horace Grant was some kind of super-star; far from it. But I’d argue he was MUCH better than the impression a casual observer may garner if he looks no further than career ppg and his list of accolades.
In his two best individual seasons (‘92 and ‘94), he was clearly playing at an All-Star level (arguably even All-NBA 3rd Team level). Then he has at least 5 other seasons where he was playing at [at least??] a borderline All-Star level, and a couple others beyond that playing at what could be called solid starter level.......so if you’re keeping count, that’s NINE largely injury-free seasons playing somewhere between “solid starter-level” and “All-NBA 3rd Team level”. And as to the other eight seasons, the ranged between "a little above average NBA player" to (at the very worst) a decent bench role player. That’s a fair bit of career value accumulated in those 17 seasons.

And as to his portability on to elite teams, I think he proved he’s perhaps one of the most portable players of all-time……
He meshed seamlessly as the [at times not too distant] 3rd wheel on the first 3peat Bulls, stepped up his responsibilities [tallying career highs in ppg, rpg, and apg, still on very good all-around efficiency (more on that below)] as the “Robin” in his first year sans-Jordan (his one actual All-Star selection)--->on a team that was still a solid playoff team [really only a small step below contender level].

Then he moves on and in a flash is well-integrated on an entirely different contender-level roster, built around a different type of superstar. And when that superb roster falls apart with the trade of Shaq and Dennis Scott, the injury-absence [plays just 19 hampered games] of Anfernee Hardaway, plus 24 missed games by Nick Anderson and 34 missed games by Darrell Armstrong, the Magic still manage a .500 season led by a [32-yr-old, probably early post-prime, AND being forced to play center] Horace Grant and Bo Outlaw.

The following year, with the return of a post-injury Penny and the emergence of Darrell Armstrong as a relevant player, he continues to be a consistent starter at 33 years old [missing no games] for a Magic team that returns to solid playoff level.

He then moves on to Seattle who----with the major roster changes being that they lose aging versions of Detlef Schrempf, Hersey Hawkins, and Dale Ellis, while adding 34-yr-old [decidedly post-prime now] Horace Grant and getting a little healthier season from Vin Baker----improve by 4 wins and +2.60 SRS, and make the playoffs; Horace is a starter playing >35 mpg for them.

He then moves on to LA and despite being 35 years old and clearly post-prime is immediately installed as a role player starter alongside Kobe and Shaq on yet another contender (the team that would roll thru the ‘01 playoffs to a title, in fact).

He then moves back to Orlando [now part of a somewhat weakish supporting cast built around yet another superstar he’s never played with (TMac)], and despite being 36 years old he’s installed as a starter averaging 29.1 mpg at a “solid role player level” in his 15th season, missing just six games.
In his 16th season he sustains serious injury for the first time and misses basically the whole year.
In his 17th and final season [now 38 years old] he goes back to LA alongside Shaq/Kobe to play as a consistent rotational player (20.1 mpg in 55 games) for yet another contender-level team.


This guy seems able to mesh anywhere and with anyone and consistently contributes in a positive way (as alluded to by the impact data I previously provided, which omits nearly half his prime). So what is it he’s providing?

Well first and foremost one would probably talk about defense and rebounding [though he’s actually an underrated offensive player, too].
Defensively, he’s a solid low-post defender capable of guarding either PF’s or C’s, though he’s also one of the better PF’s defending the perimeter if caught on a switch, and imo one of the better [best??] pnr defending PF’s. I know it’s just a single highlight, but I’ll cite his famous block on Kevin Johnson just to highlight his lateral quickness and ability to recover:

Watch on YouTube

He does this while providing a modicum of shot-blocking (peaked at 1.6 bpg and averaged 1.2 bpg over his best 7-year stretch), decent defensive rebounding (and he does box-out, fwiw).

Offensively, he’s got a very limited post repertoire--->really it was limited to a little jump hook with his right hand, or a simple turning over his left shoulder to pull-up [slight fade] for a short jump-shot.
But he had fairly good hands in traffic and was a decent finisher around the rim (60.9% for the years we have the data, which is mostly his post-prime; 62.4% if looking at only ‘97 and ‘98, the only years in the sample that can even remotely be called his prime). Athletic enough that he’d occasionally be rewarded for running in transition, too.

And if deployed to do so, he was a very effective offensive rebounder: for three straight seasons that include one WITHOUT Jordan (‘92-’94) he hovered around 14% OREB%. Just to put that in perspective, Charles Barkley has a career 12.5% OREB% and only two seasons better than what Grant was AVERAGING over those three years.

Horace could spread the floor somewhat: he had range out to 14-15 feet by ‘92 at least (I remember lots of shots from the short corner during the first 3peat). By later in his prime he’d extended his effective range out to more like 20 ft: for ‘97-’03 he was 44.8% from 16-23 ft (45.4% from ‘97-’99).
And he generally wasn’t a bad FT-shooting big (69.2% for his career).

The combination of these qualities allowed him to score middling volume on good shooting efficiency throughout his prime. His shooting efficiency only started to tank beginning in ‘98 when: a) he was arguably past his prime, and b) no longer had elite offensive talent around him and was being asked to score more [note ‘98 is the 2nd-highest usage of his career, despite being perhaps just beyond his prime]--->this was the year he and Bo Outlaw led a .500 team.

When Horace was nearer his peak and asked to score more (looking at ‘94 here), he averaged 15.1 ppg @ +1.2% rTS…...and that was while having an unusually poor [the single-worst of his career, actually] FT-shooting season (just 59.6%, nearly 10% below his career avg); if he’d had just an average FT-shooting year in ‘94, he’d have averaged 15.4 ppg @ +2.3% rTS as the 2nd-option scorer on a solid playoff team.

Horace also set nice screens, was a decent passing big (career 2.2 apg, 2.7 apg over the 8-year span of ‘90-’97, peaking at 3.4 per game), while consistently maintaining [in ALL circumstances that he played in] a GOAT-tier turnover economy for a big-man.
**This is the thing that perhaps definitively sets him apart from some of the other PF’s he’s typically compared to, imo.

I frequently use my modified TOV% to compare turnover economies, because it considers turnovers committed vs ALL other aspects of production that involves touching the ball. And although I’ve not run EVERY player in history thru this formula, I’ve run a lot. From what I’ve identified so far, the GOAT-tier of turnover economy among big-men are (career figures):

LaMarcus Aldridge: 6.39%
Dirk Nowitzki: 6.42%
Horace Grant: 6.61%
+/- Anthony Davis: 6.90%


Within his own era, Grant is often compared to guys like Charles Oakley, AC Green, or Buck Williams; though among those, Buck Williams is really the only one I consider particularly close in terms of career value and overall player quality during their average prime(ish) year. Here’s how he compares to these three statistically…..

Horace has higher career averages than Green in ALL FIVE box counting stats, while having just marginally lesser rTS% and same topg. Just my opinion, but I’d also gauge Green as the weakest defensive player of the four.

Oakley, in comparison to Horace, averaged +1.6 rpg, +0.3 apg, and +0.1 spg, but also averaged -1.5 fewer ppg, -0.7 bpg, with +1.1 topg, and a little worse career rTS%, as well.

Williams averaged +1.6 ppg and +1.8 rpg compared to Horace, with nearly 4% better rTS, too. However, he also averaged an additional +1.0 topg, -0.9 apg, and slightly lower stls/blks.

In terms of mTOV%, here’s their career figures:
Horace Grant: 6.61%
A.C. Green: 8.88%
Charles Oakley: 12.33%
Buck Williams: 12.99%


It further warrants looking at the quality of teams this was produced for. Because it’s one thing to put up a particular statline for a 60+ win contending team, quite another to do it for a team struggling to reach 25 wins. Obviously the difference between Grant’s teams and the teams of these other guys is not that large (just using that to make the principle obvious), but there are many gradations of difference in between.

Excellent teams are excellent because they have a lot of talent on the roster. One [often] must be of a certain quality to warrant “star-level” minutes on an excellent or contender-level team; and even with the minutes, their usage tends to decline on better teams (again: contender teams have better/other options)......think Chris Bosh on the Heat, Kevin Love on the Cavs, or Durant/Curry on the Warriors.

Here is the average quality of teams these four played for:
Grant: .639 rs win% (.651 win% in games he was active for), .623 playoff win%
Williams: .540 win% (.544 win% in active games), .461 playoff win%
Oakley: .553 win% (.559 win% in active games), .463 playoff win%
Green: .612 win% (.612 win% in active games), .608 playoff win%

Green’s teams are really the only ones sort of close.

Most of our “all-in-one” rate metrics do account for the quality of teams played for: BPM, WS/48, and net rating all----to some degree----take stock of wins and/or team pt differential.
PER is the only one that does not, and even in that Horace Grant has the highest among the four.
Here are how things compare with these four metrics….

Grant: 16.0 PER, .147 WS/48, +1.4 BPM, 117 ORtg/104 DRtg (+13)
Williams: 15.3 PER, .136 WS/48, 0.0 BPM, 112 ORtg/104 DRtg (+8)
Oakley: 13.4 PER, .107 WS/48, -0.5 BPM, 105 ORtg/102 DRtg (+3)
Green: 14.4 PER, .131 WS/48, -0.2 BPM, 116 ORtg/106 DRtg (+10)

So Grant carries a small but definitive edge over everyone in each rs advanced metric (with Grant also having the highest career mpg average of the four, fwiw, though only marginal over Williams; also only fair to note that Oakley played the most seasons, though).

Horace Grant then also has the least drop-off in the post-season (most of his metrics go UP in the playoffs, actually); so the playoff gap is marginally larger.


When I add all this up, I just really don’t think they compare, especially in light of the impact profile we have for them. Using RAPM (available from ‘97 on), and incorporating rs APM for ‘94-’96, here’s how they compare:

Grant (11 seasons, ‘94-’04): +1.83 avg
Williams (5 seasons, ‘94-’98): +0.45 avg
Oakley (11 seasons, ‘94-’04): +0.03 avg
Green (8 seasons, ‘94-’01): -0.94 avg

In Elgee’s WOWYR, Oakley is comparable to Grant, with Williams and Green trailing a bit behind.

This is getting awfully long, but hopefully illustrates the value and relevance of Horace Grant’s career, and paints a little better [and imo: accurate] picture than is typically painted regarding how good he was.