REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 2010 or earlier)

[penbeast0]

BAA/NBA/ABA playing careers only; we are not including college, Olympic, foreign, etc. You can select up to 10 players (you do not HAVE to fill out your list). They do not have to be in order. The 10 players with the most votes make the HOF. Voting will stay open as long as there is active interest. We take the top 10 votegetters, in case of a tie, I will go back and ask everyone to vote on just the tied players, ranking them in order with just 1st place votes counting, then 2nd if 1st ties again, etc.


Gary Payton (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoka Hibiki, worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0, trex_8063)
Alonzo Mourning (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoka Hibiki, worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0, trex_8063)
Dikembe Mutombo (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoka Hibiki, worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0, trex_8063)

Allen Iverson (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoka Hibiki, worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence, trex_8063)
Chris Webber (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoka Hibiki, worldjbfree, eminence, penbeast0, trex_8063)

Mark Price (Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, Ryoka Hibiki, worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Bernard King (Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0)

Lenny Wilkens (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Ryoka Hibiki, worldjbfree, Doctor MJ)
Buck Williams (Narigo, Ryoka Hibiki, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0)
Shawn Kemp (Narigo, Dr Positivity, Dutchball97, worldjbfree, trex_8063)

RealGM PC Board 2020 HOF

Retired 1960 or before

Retired 1965 or before

Retired 1970 or before

Retired 1975 or before

Retired 1980 or before

Retired 1985 or before

Retired 1990 or before

Retired 1995 or before

Retired 2000 or before

Retired 2005 or before

[penbeast0]

Other guys from last time:

Bernard King
Terry Porter
Shawn Kemp
Terry Cummings
Tim Hardaway
Mookie Blaylock
Mitch Richmond

New guys who made at least one All-NBA team:
Penny Hardaway
Gary Payton
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Chris Webber
Allen Iverson
Stephon Marbury
Eddie Jones
Sam Cassell

[eminence]

This is the 2010 class right? And it is surprisingly bad for such a late class, might be a good time to re-visit guys who just missed earlier (Max Zaslofsky anyone?).

[penbeast0]

Sorry, Max was never that impressive. Maybe Spencer Haywood or Mark Price . . .

[Dutchball97]

I'd say there are 6 guys I'm picking from this class for sure.

Gary Payton
Allen Iverson
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Penny Hardaway
Chris Webber

Maybe there are some strong candidates I muissed but it looks like the last 4 spots will be guys from previous groups.

[eminence]

Uncle Cliffy is my super sleeper here. Guy pretty much never played on a bad team, and I think there's a reason for it. Don't think he'll quite make the cut, but he was a guy I thought of that I'm not sure everyone would consider.

[Dutchball97]

Right now I'd say Kemp, Haywood, King and Price are the frontrunners for my last spots.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I don't like Webber, but not sure whoelse to pick...
Iverson not a fan but MVP, good playoff success.
Payton might be the king.
Georgetown centers for sure.
Kukoc will probably make my list, I think his impact is very underrated, he had a major part in the two final series against the Jazz playing the 4 and either abusing Malone or forcing the Jazz to give up the rim protector.
Penny? Awfully short prime...

Definitely time to go back to the ones left outside in the previous ballots.

Wow, 2015 will be a bloodbath.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[Dr Positivity]

I'm probably going to vote for:

Gary Payton
Terry Porter
Mark Price
Allen Iverson
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo

King, Penny, Webber, Kemp are solid candidates. I'll look strongly at Lenny as well.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, opening thoughts:

Of the new class I see 5 guys who I think will be locks, though the class is super weak, so maybe this will change:

Gary Payton - King of the Class I think, though frankly I tend to think he's overrated

Alonzo Mourning - outstanding 2-way player with intensity, someone who can operate as a franchise player if you don't have an MVP guy

Rasheed Wallace - extraordinary talent who actually basically lived up to it, he just wasn't a super-volume scorer and has personality prone to mope. But in Portland his impact was that of a B-list superstar (Top 10 at least), and his transition to Detroit was legendary.

Dikembe Mutombo - premier defensive player of his generation, ever in demand throughout his long career.

Allen Iverson - feels like he should be in to me. He was super-overrated, but that didn't mean he wasn't often contributing a good deal of value, and he got his team to the finals and took a game off the GOAT playoff champs ('01 Lakers). You add all that up and you absolutely do not have a Pistol Pete situation where the guy is just fundamentally not playing in a way that adds value at the NBA level, which means that I feel comfortable talking about the cultural significance of the player.

Now one guy in his own category:

Anfernee Hardaway - I see him as a higher peak than any of the guys above but it didn't last. Where to place?

Other new guys I've put thought into:

Kings - Chris Webber & Vlade Divac - I see Divac as the more effective basketball player with a remarkable portability across teams, on the other hand Webber carried a heavier load in their mutual career highlight. In the end, at this point I tend to think their not-yet-eligible teammate Peja Stojakovic is the most Hall worthy. He did play the lead role on Sacramento and was the guy who best possessed the skill set that was driving the Kings to greatness - that team wins titles if they crank up the 3-point shooting a lot more, and if they do that Stojakovic would clearly be the focal point of the team.

I don't know if I'll vote for Stojakovic when he's eligible, of the two eligible at this point I'd be inclined to side with Divac.

I'll also mention Doug Christie who was a perfect fit for those Kings' teams but seems like an average team couldn't expect at all comparable impact.

Hawks - Mookie Blaylock & Steve Smith (& Dikembe Mutombo)

Mookie is the MVP of that team in the mid-90s, and is also the lead 3-point shooters with Smith taking some but less. But when the 3-point line goes back to big boy land, Mookie's shot seems to disappear whereas Smith continues to thrive and becomes the 3rd best player on that could've-been-champion Blazers (Sheed, Pippen).

I find myself feeling like Smith is the more worthy player for the Hall, but not himself noteworthy enough to make the 10 (I see Divac as a bit stronger).

Mutombo is a big impact guy on that team, thriving next to the 3-point shooters, and of course would go on to more success later. He's the clear choice among the 3.

Sonics - Shawn Kemp?

So if we look at +/-, the two most impressive players on those Sonics are Nate McMillan and Gary Payton. There are too many obvious issues for me to champion McMillan over Kemp, but the thing is that guys like Detlef Schrempf and Hersey Hawkins seem arguably stronger than Kemp too.

In the end, Kemp is my 2nd Sonic candidate in part because he can clearly stand up to playoff level competition - his body is 1st class against any of his contemporaries - but I don't think he ever really figured out the savvy of the game he needed to to be that true superstar.

Eddie Jones - Jones, like Divac, are former Lakers who did great things wherever they went. My feeling is that Divac is just a smidge ahead of him.

Alright, I'm going to end with something kind of dumb. If I take all the eligible guys and wort them by career Win Shares, I get this:

1. Gary Payton 145.5
2. Walt Bellamy 130.1
3. Buck Williams 120.1
4. Dikembe Mutombo 117.0
5. Terry Porter 110.4

Payton's at the top and Mutombo I'm guessing will be a lock for people. What about those other 3.

I'm not going to champion Bellamy, but I'll acknowledge that his cumulative offensive accomplishments are really noteworthy for his era, and he did it with great efficiency. While I've been very critical of volume scoring bigs, to be real, I don't actually think that letting Bellamy volume score was a problem. His defense is the problem. How big of a problem is it? That's the question.

It's enough of a problem that, say, Mutombo is quite clearly a better candidate than Bellamy, but is it enough that even in this weak class Bellamy isn't Top 10? Honestly, I'm starting to doubt it.

From that era I've been picking Wilkens over Bellamy the entire time, and I haven't necessarily changed my mind on that, but some of the guys I'm looking at here just don't seem like they belong above Bellamy. (I mean, Steve Smith, really?)

Alright, that leaves 2 Blazers:

Buck Williams & Terry Porter

I think it goes without saying that it's not crazy to have Porter ahead of Buck, as most probably do who come at this from a Blazer lens. As I've said, I think Buck's role getting that team actually "figure it out" is absolutely huge and Porter was one of the guy who got in line behind Buck. Add in that Buck's prime was more on the Nets than the Blazers, and totals like the ones I've posted above favor Buck, and I think we've got a clear choice.

I wanted y'all to see that Bucks was 3rd on that WS list. WS' are what they are - not the end all, be all - but I want folks to realize that Buck was accumulating bits of box score-recognized value quite prolifically. Picking Buck here is not throwing out all the data and just saying "Buck was the MAN!!!", it's about recognizing that if you feel the box score was underrating Buck's impact (and I certainly do), consider what that means when he's still so high on something like WS.

Image from the time.



This was the image in a nutshell of why the Bucks were a terrifying team, and there was no question about who to put front and center? Clyde "I'll be okay if I never win a championship" Drexler? Hell no.

It's Buck who defines that team's fierceness, and so it's Buck who is front and center here.

[eminence]

Sheed played 21 games in '13 for the Knicks for god knows why, so he's one of many up next class.

[Doctor MJ]

Sheed played 21 games in '13 for the Knicks for god knows why, so he's one of many up next class.

Wow, this class gets weaker still.

[eminence]

Sheed played 21 games in '13 for the Knicks for god knows why, so he's one of many up next class.

Wow, this class gets weaker still.

Yeah, it's kind of amazing how weak it is, I think Payton is the only one I would've voted for in the last class.

[Narigo]

Gary Payton
Terry Porter
Allen Iverson
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Lenny Wilkens
Buck Williams
Terry Cummings

[70sFan]

Wow, is it the worst class so far (even worse than the first one)? We have the weakest King of the Class here and no depth at all...

Need to get back to some older unvoted players here instead, because no way I'll make 10 names list from that.

[Dr Positivity]

Votes

Gary Payton - long all-star career, winning teams

Terry Porter - excellent efficient 2nd option on a multiple finals team

Allen Iverson - in a stronger class you could have argued against him, but he put together a solid 10 year prime, made the finals

Alonzo Mourning - He put together a solid 8 years before the kidney issues, and then was one of the best backup Cs of all time

Dikembe Mutombo - All time defensive center career, on multiple winning teams, and solid backup C ending

Mark Price - His longevity isn’t too bad with a solid 7.5-ish year prime, excellent offensive PG all around

Bernard King - Like Price, he puts in a lot more good years before his injury than someone like Penny, even if you discount the Washington years as real value. High level scoring peak.

Chris Webber - I’m not the biggest fan in the world of his Bullet years but I guess they’re still something, and he leads a strong team in Sacramento

Shawn Kemp - Elite 2nd banana on a contender Sonics team for a reasonable amount of time, and I guess his Cavs run wasn’t too bad

Lenny Wilkens - Long very solid PG career. Between him, Buck, Cummings, Richmond at this spot, I think Wilkens for his position stands out more.

Penny is a no for me. His prime longevity is quite a bit shorter than even players like Price, King, etc., I like him more as a player but not enough more.

[Dutchball97]

Official Votes

Gary Payton
Allen Iverson
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Penny Hardaway
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Spencer Haywood
Bernard King
Mark Price

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Ok, my votes (always tentative)
* Payton
* Iverson
* Deke
* Zo
are for me the only strong candidates that I would have voted in other ballots as well

To this I am adding, even if not super strong candidates
* Toni Kukoc, because his impact in the Bulls championship has been underrated, he was playing similar to a modern 4 for many minutes and that was making a difference, and because if he was born 10-15 years later he would have probably had a very different career
* Vlade Divac, because he was in my view the most important player on those amazing Kings teams and had a long career as a positive contributor and decent playoff success. Not very sure, though

I am then recovering from previous ballots:
* Mark Price, he had a short prime but not as short some other candidates'. Not really so much success in the playoff, but I think that's the kind of guy who would be a perfect PG for the modern game and I suspect his impact on +/- was huge (anyone has numbers). Tome he was on par with Dallas Nash
* Buck Williams, similar argument of why Horace should have been in, minus the rings
* Lenny Wilkens, because if look at the resume of the guys I am putting in, he deserves a spot

And finally
* Chris Webber, as much a I despise the way he managed his career (he could have changed the game like Dirk if he stayed in GS) and as much as I think he was awfully overrated, I can't leave him out looking at the alternatives. Had Shaq or Sheed retired sooner he probably would have not made it, as the next two classes are going to be, ,ore stacked

Leaving out the likes of Penny and Kemp, but also King based on this: if you have a super short prime in my view it must be a Walton like one, where you really get something done at the highest level

[penbeast0]

Leaving out the likes of Penny and Kemp, but also King based on this: if you have a super short prime in my view it must be a Walton like one, where you really get something done at the highest level

Wasn't Bernard King's career and prime longer than Mark Price's? 874 games to 722, 14 years to 12, 10 years scoring over 20/game to zero, 33.7mpg career to 29.9. Plus those few but great playoff runs in NY though Price was a good playoff performer too. I can see leaving out King, he was not as friendly a guy, played as a solo rather than an ensemble, had the alcoholism issues . . . but despite his career being interrupted mid=prime, he was played longer and was a star longer than Price. You might want to go back and look.

[penbeast0]

There are a few guys I really liked as players and would like to find a reason to pick:

Terry Porter
Terry Cummings
Mookie Blaylock
Gary Payton
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning
Buck Williams
Mark Price

There are also a few guys that I really would like to find a reason to exclude:

Bernard King
Shawn Kemp
Penny Hardaway
Chris Webber
Allen Iverson
Stephen Marbury
Spencer Haywood
Walt Bellamy

My prejudices might affect my votes so I am putting them out front.

Locks:
Gary Payton
Dikembe Mutombo
Alonzo Mourning

Guys with ridiculous numbers but less obvious impact:
King
Webber
Iverson
Haywood
Bellamy

Guards: Who are the best among these guys
Porter
Blaylock
Price

Power Forwards: Are any of these 3 impactful enough?
Terry Cummings
Buck Williams
Shawn Kemp

Let’s start with the Pfs. Last time I ran a quick statistical analysis showing why I thought that Terry Cummings was a better choice than Shawn Kemp. Now lets look at Terry v. Buck Williams. Both had long careers (18 and 17 years) though Cummings had his career interrupted by serious knee injuries. Buck stays at the top of his game longer, playing 32.5 min v. 28.7 for Cummings. Terry is the guy with big numbers per 100 (not perfect but it allows comparison across eras and roles), Buck is more efficient scorer (and plays closer to the basket). I think by the numbers, Terry Cummings is the superior player. IN terms of team impact, Milwaukee didn’t lose a step when they dealt off Marques Johnson who we put in the HOF easily and San Antonio improved defensively when they replaced Dennis Rodman with him (though that was mainly Rodman being a jerk). I’d have to see strong impact numbers to place Buck higher though he’s my favorite U of Maryland basketball player of all time.

Cummings 28.7 mpg 28.2pts 12.5reb 3.2ast @.520ts%
Williams 32.5mpg 19.0pts 14.7reb 1.9ast @ .587%

Running the numbers for Porter, Blaylock, and Price

Terry Porter has a long long career (1274 games), Blaylock (889) and Price (578) much shorter. Blaylock has the clearly superior defensive rep, one of the ATG defensive Pgs, Porter a good defensive rep, Price nothing special at that end. Mookie was heavily reliant on the 3 pointer offensively, the others shot less of them but at higher percentage. Looking at their per 100 numbers:

Blaylock 34.9min 19.9pts 6.1reb 9.9ast/3.4to @.488ts% (league .531, the big problem for Mookie!)
Porter 27.8min 21.6pts 5.4reb 9.9ast/3.7to @.576ts% (league .533)
Price 29.9min 26.0pts 4.4reb 11.5ast/4.2to @.586ts% (league .535)

None of the 5 I’ve looked at so far jump out with just stats, all very good players (except Mookie though I remember him being an incredible impact stats darling) but only Mookie’s defense is at a HOF level. Instead Porter, Price, and Cummings are more well rounded players with Buck being a glue guy and Porter probably being the strongest candidate before impact stats (which someone else will hopefully run).

Now for the Stat guys: All big scorers, Iverson obviously the biggest. King and Bellamy the only really good efficiency guys, Haywood and Webber more average, Iverson obviously poor. All were attitude problems in one way or another. King stepped it up in the playoffs, Webber was a choke artist. OF them, I probably hold my nose and put Iverson in, second strongest probably Bernard King.

All that and I'm still only up to 6 guys:

Payton
Mutombo
Mourning
Porter
King
Iverson

sigh

Cummings
Williams
Price
Webber

Please talk me either into having more confidence in the bottom 5 here or talk me out of it.