Who is a better finisher than LeBron?

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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#41 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:02 am

Wait, how could I forget about Artis Gilmore :o He's definitely up there, might be the best inside finisher ever to be honest.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#42 » by MyUniBroDavis » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:31 am

Brooklyn_Ball33 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
He might have been compared to 97, 98 Jordan. But probably not peak Jordan, Curry's peaked around 70% which is very good but Jordan was probably around there in his prime, likely in a tougher environment so I'd give him an edge and the benefit of the doubt. Would I give him the edge over a guy in the 76-78 range (assuming he was around 70), probably not.


(Emphasis mine) :lol: :lol:

That being said, Curry is probably one of the best finishing guards of all time. He uses the glass probably better than anyone in the game currently and has absolutely elite handles, better than Jordan certainly better than Jordan ever did. I don't think him being in the high 60s and breaking 70 is some indictment of the current era, he's an elite player an ATG talent. Someone like Dion Waiters shooting 70% at the rim would be.


Because he plays today in the videogame numbers era. Curry is "one of the best finishing guards of all time" for the same reason that Russell Westbrook averaged a triple double for 3 years, for the same reason that Harden had a 37/8 season, for the same reason that Isiah Thomas averaged 30 ppg, for the same reason that like 11 players this past postseason had more 50+ point playoff games than Kobe/Dirk (hyperbole but the point stands), for the same reason that Lebron somehow magically has a 10 year prime with little dip in his numbers into his mid-30's, for the same reason that a limited player like Kawhi was averaging like 36 ppg until the Finals last year. People really believe that what they are seeing is real, but it isn't. Take '20 Lebron and put him in the 2003 or 1998 or 1993 NBA and he doesn't put up the numbers he just did.


I agree to an extent although I think youre exaggeratting a bit

Curry is legitimately a great finisher, idk if hes one of the greatest ever but hes def one of the top of the league at that, but i dont think of him as a great finisher just because his raw effeciency is high at the rim, he has a really good touch around the rim. Hes not athletic but i feel like im getting a hes a unathletic white dude getting ez layups vibe and he def isnt, he does legitimately have a really nice touch around the rim


Otoh, his athleticism is bleh and i feel if hes not "in control" his touch isnt as good personally, but he has an absurd floater game and usually is in control.

On westbrook, i mean the team boxes out for him to get boards on defense, its a unique strat but its not really an era thing. Hes not doing that without a guy like adams. I mean he gets the same offensive boards as kidd did around and westbrook obv is a great rebounding guard any era

On harden, that is an era thing since teams dont really play super 5 out like that so i agree, although harden probably has the best handles in iso, pretty much ever lol.

I think when you define finisher you have to specify what your talking about.

If your talking about touch? Currys definately up there, but i wouldnt say he has the best touch ever or he has the best touch right now, kyrie has him beat in that regard.

But obv guys like kobe were way more threatening when they went at the rim and youd want curry to take a contested layup over a guy him or a KD.

Kawhi was averaging 31.2ppg, and his only real limitation is that his playmaking wasnt all that, i dont see how he was a limited player scoring wise lol, hes a discount kobe scoring wise.

I think generally superstar players are in easier situations to score now but its a player by player thing and usually it has to do with spacing and things like that, but its def situational.

Like the main ways players have it easier to score is spacing, you can make arguments with fouls but free throws are at an all time low, and while some of it is players shooting more threes the idea that everythings a foul is overblown in some cases, although some guys def get the whistle easier than others

I agree that some guys you can look at and say theyre helped out by their systems but you cant ignore skillset either. For guards that arent super athletic curry probably has a top tier touch. Now is he a better finisher than jordan, no, jordans so much more athletic that he can do things curry cant even do in 2k.

Otoh are there alot of guards that werent super athletic with currys level of finishing? Doubt it.

Its not just about the numbers. Nash for example was effecient as curry in his peak years, in the mid 2000s, and had the same not athletic but nice touch and in control thing going on, but i think even though he was a great finisher currys def better.

Theres a decent amount of evidence i think that around 96-97 to 2015 or something the nba became harder to score effeciently as an iso type guy (especially for wings).

The idea that players today suck doesnt really make sense, like ofc some players are shockingly good like isaiah but that doesnt invalidate the entire nba lol, besides there were 2 guys at his height who had a 20+ a game season in the 80s and 90s as well.

On the bubble, i mean they were making heat check threes to score 50 lol it wasnt really anything

With bron, i dont think hes in an easier situation than he was in the 2017 cavs, and hes def improved in alot of ways compared to his younger years, by his own admission. I mean i dont think its weird to assume that hed still be absurd any year, his effeciency probably goes down a bit but 36 year old lebron has a 40 inch vert (based off that dunk vs the rockets), is around 260 pounds, still fast as hell and probably a better passer than he ever was and clearly has upped his iq alot since even his miami days, by his own admission, not to mention his team played 2 centers and refs have kind of reffed lebron worse since he moved to the lakers vs any othee year of his career

Obv its not as simple as "ohhh today players r way better" nor is it the other way around, players today have different skills and have the benefit of watching older players play and learning from them. The greatest still trancend that, but there are definately things players excel at today. Id say players back then were better in the post post entry passes etc etc but again thats because increased focus on the three ball means players took more emphasis on threes and less in the post

Id say players today are better at shooting overall, and ball handling. Some of that is rules, but that goes both ways. I think ball handlings kinda huge tho, and even though alot of it is rules, but i think you can make the argument the 4 of the top 5 ball handlers ever are playing right now
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#43 » by tone wone » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:38 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:I mean it depends on what you mean by finisher, lebrons prolly the most effective finisher ever but there are guys with better touch than him

That doesn't make much sense. If no one is more effective how can the be those with better touch?
90sgoat wrote:Harden would struggle to score 20 in the 90s. I think he might have struggled to even score 15 to be honest.

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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#44 » by MyUniBroDavis » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:25 pm

tone wone wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:I mean it depends on what you mean by finisher, lebrons prolly the most effective finisher ever but there are guys with better touch than him

That doesn't make much sense. If no one is more effective how can the be those with better touch?


Because the guys with a better touch than him arent 6ft8 260 pounds and have a 40 inch vert lol. If lebron suddenly became 6ft3 and unathletic his finishing wouldnt be really great at all, since at that point its more about touch

Lebron like definately does not have the best touch around the rim ever thats kind of absurd lol, its like when people were saying kyrie wasnt a great finisher because his effeciency wasnt that high

Kyrie has better handles than anyone ever but there are people able to more effectively use their handles because of higher iq or who have more athleticism and thus dont need to create as much of an advantage with their handles
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#45 » by freethedevil » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:52 pm

Micheal jordan was basically never doubled outside of the key. Wonder how exactly those who think curry is inflated by his era would be stopped by 90's defenses.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#46 » by Leslie Forman » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:10 am

Brooklyn_Ball33 wrote:Again, anyone who thinks that Twink Curry is shooting 60-65% inside in, say, 1990 is deluded. Sorry. There's a reason why you've seen an explosion of high scoring short guards (6'-6'3") the last several years, and it's not because of "talent."

If John Stockton could do it, I don't see any reason why the hell Steph Curry couldn't.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#47 » by Arrow » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:05 pm

I don't see how Jordan has a case over LeBron. We don't have the stats for his 0-3 feet shooting numbers during his physical prime, but based on what we do have from '97 and '98 seasons, I just don't see how he has any case. Jordan was 33/34 yo in '97/'98 and shot 51%/62% from 0-3 feet in those seasons. LeBron at the same age, but with a lot more mileage, shot 77%/76%.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#48 » by IG2 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:27 am

Arrow wrote:I don't see how Jordan has a case over LeBron. We don't have the stats for his 0-3 feet shooting numbers during his physical prime, but based on what we do have from '97 and '98 seasons, I just don't see how he has any case. Jordan was 33/34 yo in '97/'98 and shot 51%/62% from 0-3 feet in those seasons. LeBron at the same age, but with a lot more mileage, shot 77%/76%.


And the "wide open lanes" of today is a recent phenomenon (2017-current). LeBron's been in the league for 17 years and from 2004-2016, ORTGs on average are notably lower than what they were during MJ's era (1985-1998). Watch a random game from say....2014....and you won't be seeing the spaced out offenses that we see today at all. Yet LeBron was still posting interior percentages in the mid to high 70's. MJ simply wasn't on that level. A basic eye test will back this up too.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#49 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:40 am

IG2 wrote:
Arrow wrote:I don't see how Jordan has a case over LeBron. We don't have the stats for his 0-3 feet shooting numbers during his physical prime, but based on what we do have from '97 and '98 seasons, I just don't see how he has any case. Jordan was 33/34 yo in '97/'98 and shot 51%/62% from 0-3 feet in those seasons. LeBron at the same age, but with a lot more mileage, shot 77%/76%.


And the "wide open lanes" of today is a recent phenomenon (2017-current). LeBron's been in the league for 17 years and from 2004-2016, ORTGs on average are notably lower than what they were during MJ's era (1985-1998). Watch a random game from say....2014....and you won't be seeing the spaced out offenses that we see today at all. Yet LeBron was still posting interior percentages in the mid to high 70's. MJ simply wasn't on that level. A basic eye test will back this up too.


Iirc he was going more off ball and in cutting roles in miami

I would say pick and roll and off ball scoring was more of a thing post illegal d rules (which started in 97 or 98 iirc, but they were fully eliminated after that a few years later). But isolation/post scoring and overall 1v1 scoring was more effecient in the 80-90s, vs the 2000s-early 2010s, but then spacing increasing made it happen afterward, will illegal movement stuff playing a small role too

I dont really get why 0-3 feet is considered finishing and 3-10 feet isnt the same way lol. Not saying ones better than the other in this specific one.

Lebrons obv one of the most effective players at the rim ever if not the most effecive player at the rim ever, i think jordans clearly up there too though. I think jordan can make finishes lebron cant make but lebron gets to take finishes jordan cant take, if that makes sense
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#50 » by Peregrine01 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:45 am

Shaq in terms of brute effectiveness. I can think of plenty more skilled finishers than Bron though.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#51 » by D.Brasco » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:47 pm

Goudelock wrote:
DQuinn1575 wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


Okay, this is going to sound sacrilegious, but I don't think Erving is in the same tier as MJ and LeBron and Giannis when it comes to finishing around the rim. He was AMAZING close to the basket, don't get me wrong. But when I watch his games, it seems like Erving had a habit of getting too "cute" around the basket and blew some layups that a guy like LeBron or even Barkley wouldn't, possibly because he didn't have the raw strength the others did. Now this didn't happen very often, but it seemed to happen more to Erving than the other top-echelon guys. I actually think Dominique was better around the rim than Dr. J.


That sort of sounds like VC to me. He may have been the best technical dunker but he was far from an all-time finisher.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#52 » by 70sFan » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:34 pm

D.Brasco wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
DQuinn1575 wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


Okay, this is going to sound sacrilegious, but I don't think Erving is in the same tier as MJ and LeBron and Giannis when it comes to finishing around the rim. He was AMAZING close to the basket, don't get me wrong. But when I watch his games, it seems like Erving had a habit of getting too "cute" around the basket and blew some layups that a guy like LeBron or even Barkley wouldn't, possibly because he didn't have the raw strength the others did. Now this didn't happen very often, but it seemed to happen more to Erving than the other top-echelon guys. I actually think Dominique was better around the rim than Dr. J.


That sort of sounds like VC to me. He may have been the best technical dunker but he was far from an all-time finisher.

I'm sure that Julius was much better finisher than Vince.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#53 » by feyki » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:48 pm

As a penetrator, I'd agree with Lebron is the best. If you count Barkley as a penetrator, he was better than him.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#54 » by D.Brasco » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:26 pm

70sFan wrote:
D.Brasco wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
Okay, this is going to sound sacrilegious, but I don't think Erving is in the same tier as MJ and LeBron and Giannis when it comes to finishing around the rim. He was AMAZING close to the basket, don't get me wrong. But when I watch his games, it seems like Erving had a habit of getting too "cute" around the basket and blew some layups that a guy like LeBron or even Barkley wouldn't, possibly because he didn't have the raw strength the others did. Now this didn't happen very often, but it seemed to happen more to Erving than the other top-echelon guys. I actually think Dominique was better around the rim than Dr. J.


That sort of sounds like VC to me. He may have been the best technical dunker but he was far from an all-time finisher.

I'm sure that Julius was much better finisher than Vince.


Oh yeah I'm quite sure of that as well. How would you compare Dr. J to MJ as a finisher? I saw in another comment you put him in a tier with MJ but both of them below LeBron and Giannis.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#55 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:16 am

D.Brasco wrote:
70sFan wrote:
D.Brasco wrote:
That sort of sounds like VC to me. He may have been the best technical dunker but he was far from an all-time finisher.

I'm sure that Julius was much better finisher than Vince.


Oh yeah I'm quite sure of that as well. How would you compare Dr. J to MJ as a finisher? I saw in another comment you put him in a tier with MJ but both of them below LeBron and Giannis.

We don't have enough data to be sure, but based on what I've seen I'd rank them:

LeBron James
Giannis Antetokumpo
Julius Erving
Michael Jordan

Julius was bigger and more powerful than Jordan, not by a huge amount but enough to make it significant. He was also more of a power finisher, when Jordan sometimes went for more fancy finishes. I also think that Julius finished better from standing position - maybe he was a bit longer?
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#56 » by feyki » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:45 am

Erving had played with %60 TS against the 98 DEFRTG, without good shooting.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#57 » by ShotCreator » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:11 pm

Giannis finishes at angles I’ve only seen Shaq be able to even make real attempts at.

Standing reach is gonna be a bigger adv than raw leaping 90% of the time for all rim activities in a game.

LeBron is amazing to even be in the convo at legit wing size. Same for Chuck.

But Giannis or Shaq is best. I’d bet my life on Shaq most likely.

Shaq
Giannis
Barkley
Wilt
LeBron

HM to Dwight Howard and surely somebody from the 80’s I don’t know enough about.
Swinging for the fences.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#58 » by nolang1 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:29 pm

Brooklyn_Ball33 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Maybe at his peak. But certainly not over the course of his whole career which is shorter, atleast IMO.

The data we have on Jordan in 97 and 98 (tho 97 is suspect) paints Jordan as a roughly %56 shooter from 0-3 FT. For reference Lebron's worst season, his rookie year, he was at 60%. Next season he was at 73%, and over the next 8-9 seasons worked all the way up to 80%.

We can make all the hypothetical situations up that we want cross-era, but the difference between %60 and %80 is a lot.


If you believe your own line of reasoning (namely, that variations in defensive climate/rules can't possibly affect finishing rates to an extreme degree), then you also have to say that '15-'20 Curry was a better finisher than '96-'98 Jordan. And that, to anyone sensible, is risible.


No, there's obviously a trade-off between volume and efficiency, so anyone sensible would understand that Jordan could still be a better finisher if he was getting to the basket twice as often as Curry.
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#59 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:44 pm

ShotCreator wrote:HM to Dwight Howard and surely somebody from the 80’s I don’t know enough about.

A-Train ;)
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Re: Who is a better finisher than LeBron? 

Post#60 » by Samurai » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:28 pm

What is the definition of a great finisher? Seems to me that finishers often get fouled in the act of finishing. If you are being considered the greatest of all time, you should a) never get fouled and nearly always make a basket instead, b) get an and-one out of it and nearly always convert the three point play, or c) nearly always make both free throws. Judging by some of the names being tossed out as the GOAT finisher, I assume others have not seen finishers get fouled as I have or for the purposes of this discussion, they are always credited with two points even if they don't get a basket and don't make both free throws. Indeed what made some finishers so great was an uncanny ability to draw a whistle and make both free throws more than other players.

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