All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team

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All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#1 » by 70sFan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:45 am

Here is the link to the project thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1998780

Pick the second team from 1955/56 to 1959/60 season. Explain all your choices at least in short description.

Official 1956-60 All-NBA First Team

G: 1956/57 Bob Cousy
G: 1957/58 Bill Sharman
F: 1955/56 Paul Arizin
F: 1958/59 Bob Pettit
C: 1959/60 Bill Russell


Rules:

1. Include both RS and playoffs (it's not RS award like in real life).

2. You can pick only one season per player - for example, you can't use 2016 and 2018 James in different teams.

3. Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player. I think that otherwise, we'll have players with multiple great seaosns (like James or Kareem for example) unfairly downgraded.

4. We vote in a G/G/F/F/C system.

If you want to participate, just let me know. I'm trying to get consistent list of voters.

Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:I'm in.

Doctor MJ wrote:Sounds fun. I'm in.

Dutchball97 wrote:I'm in.

PistolPeteJR wrote:I'm in lol. :D

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:yes

LA Bird wrote:...

Orin wrote:I would love to participate

ardee wrote:Sure

Heej wrote:Interesting I'm in

clearlynotjesse wrote:I wanna play

E-Balla wrote:I'm down but my participation won't be super consistent like usual, sorry for that.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:I'm in.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:...

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can participate, but not reliably
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:00 am

My votes:

G: 1958/59 Larry Costello
G: 1959/60 Richie Guerin
F: 1959/60 Elgin Baylor
F: 1957/58 Cliff Hagan
C: 1959/60 Wilt Chamberlain


Larry Costello - my first team choice.

Richie Guerin - the best all-around offensive player at guard position left. I know that he lacked playoffs, but I don't care about it.



Elgin Baylor - excellent season and one of the best 2nd team choices at forward spot in this project. All-time great scoring and great postseason performance.



Cliff Hagan - I changed my mind, explained below.

Wilt Chamberlain

Easy choice, one of the best rookie seasons ever.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#3 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:49 am

Guard: Tom Gola, 1959/60 - I mentioned him for the first team where I almost had him beating out Cousy for a spot. My main reason for going for him is his relatively strong play-off performance, something which a couple other candidates sorely lack. Even without the play-offs, Tom Gola also has the regular season with the highest WS out of him, Guerin, Costello, Shue, Braun and Martin (higher than Cousy as well and right behind Sharman). With him having a solid argument for best available regular season AND post-season, it's too much for me not to vote for him now.

Guard: Larry Costello, 1958/59 - I slightly prefer Gola over Costello but I heavily prefer both of them over any other guard available. Third team guards will be very difficult to choose.

Forward: Elgin Baylor, 1959/60 - The forward pool is the opposite of the guard pool. There are plenty of strong candidates but Baylor nontheless feels like a very easy pick.

Forward: Cliff Hagan, 1957/58 - If Yardley had his 56 post-season and 58 regular season in the same season I would've gone with him but as whole seasons I don't think either 56 or 58 Yardley stacks up to Hagan's very strong regular season and insane play-offs. Schayes had a stronger regular season in 58 than Hagan but it's clear his best post-seasons came before 56, the advantage Dolph Schayes has in the regular season isn't nearly as big as Hagan's edge in the play-offs. It should be a factor Schayes was the number 1 on his team, while Hagan wasn't on his team but it doesn't quite sway me from Hagan's 58 post-season run.

Center: Wilt Chamberlain, 1959/60 - Shouldn't really be a discussion.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:37 pm

I'm glad Gola got a mention. Too often people look at scoring first/last/always when comparing players they didn't watch. Gola was the Magic Johnson of his era (not the scorer or playmaker that prime Magic was but the biggest guard of his day, the best rebounder, and a guy who was a great playmaking wing like Magic when he played with Norm Nixon rather than full prime Showtime Magic playing with Byron Scott).
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#5 » by Odinn21 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:50 pm

Shame that Baylor got so little love for the 1st team. His overall and per minute production, including postseason, basically destroyed anyone else other than Pettit. No one else was remotely close. (1960 Baylor doubled 1956 Arizin's rebound rates.)
Ah, I guess it went down as one of my stronger disagreements.

C: 1960 Wilt Chamberlain
Obvious choice.

F: 1959 Cliff Hagan
This was between '59 Hagan and '58 Schayes for me. Hagan had efficiency advantage over Schayes (especially in the playoffs, Hagan had .583 ts postseason after the league averaged .458 ts in the regular season). Schayes OTOH, was his team's best, he didn't have Bob Pettit by his side. But I think Hagan's edge on efficiency meant more because it is directly a performance related aspect.

F: 1960 Elgin Baylor
Obvious choice.

G: 1959 Frank Ramsey
Guerin's only playoffs in this time frame was in 1959 and he averaged 15 points on .364 ts. I definitely see Guerin's case but Ramsey went so hot in the playoffs. I'd usually hold playing less than 30 mpg against a player but Ramsey had 23.2 ppg in 27.5 mpg, he was his team's leading scorer in the playoffs with great efficiency. (Ramsey .560 ts, rest of the Cs .436 ts)
(I'll have Gola in my third team.)

G: 1959 Larry Costello
I think this one of the rather obvious choices as well.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#6 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:19 pm

[*]Why are Richie Guerin, Tom Gola or Costello better than Gene Shue's best year? Gene Shue is the last 1st team All NBA player remaing.
Guerin's playoff was bad. Costello has less scoring volume.

Is being on a weak team a plus or a negative.
Shue has the scoring volume and his efficiency is OK for the era.

I think in this project we are not trying to rewards guys for having longer peaks. I think Winning a championship is only supposed to be indicator of intangibkes or defense. I would take Guerin for what he did in 1962 but that is irrelevant. Costello for passing and efficiency and an assertion that his defenses was good but is that better than Shue's vollume and the 1st all NBA pick? I would take Gola for team success.

Shue's very good 1959 playoffs might explain why Shue made All NBA 1st team ahead of Guerin in 1960. Numbers are similar but Guerin has more assists. Shue has a decent playoffs in 1960.
Are you guys sure that 1960 Gene Shue is not the best remaining guard year?
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#7 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:32 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Why are Richie Guerin, Tom Gola or Costello better than Gene Shue's best year? Gene Shue is the last 1st team All NBA player remaing.
Guerin's playoff was bad. Costello has less scoring volume.

Is being on a weak team a plus or a negative.
Shue has the scoring volume and his efficiency is OK for the era.


Richie was a better scorer. Scored more points and had better efficiency, and did so most years during this 5 year stretch. Also, wasn't Richie seen as a better passer?

Guerin did have a bad playoff, but it was only 2 games. Sample size.


Costello was more efficient and a better passer and he anchored much better offenses than Shue.


I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the 1st team award, that is not a stat that's an accolade. That's the same thing as saying "I think George Washington is better than Abe Lincoln because he was voted a better President in this political magazine".
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#8 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:05 pm

G: 1960 Larry Costello - Always anchored elite offenses (even after Schayes got old), played smart clean basketball. Kind of reminds me how people see less sexy players like Chauncey Billups, Kyle Lowry and Mike Conley. Maybe he doesn't have flashy stats but playing the right way matters a lot.

G: 1959 Richie Guerin - The Knicks were pretty much the top offense in the league during this time as well (pretty much competing with Larry's Nationals). He also had good passing, better than Shue and Ramsey I would think. He only had like 2 playoff games so it's a shame we couldn't see what he could do on a larger sample size. I like Ramsey, but his only task was to be a super charge off the bench, which he did well but not convincing enough for me to think he was better than Guerin who had larger responsibilities while still putting up good numbers.

F: 1960 Elgin Baylor

F: 1958 Dolph Schayes - This is really hard between him, Sears and Hagen. Kenny Sears has had a reputation of a sick off ball player and the clips I've seen of him seem to support that. Naturally though, Sears was probably not a good defender - so while he does have eye popping efficiency (I didn't think it was THAT good until I just checked), this might be a case of a 1950s version of Amare Stoudimire. Hagen vs Schayes comes down to how much credit do we give Hagen for scoring on one of the best teams of the decade? Now, let's also point out Schayes did play with offensive talent in his own right (I mean I voted for his guard on the 1st team for two different eras) and had a championship team in his own right. I see Schayes very much as the 1950s version of Al Horford, but with more of a shooting emphasis. I am switching my vote back and forth between Schayes and Hagen as I'm writing this, but from the small clips of what I've seen I like the way Schayes looks more. I think Schayes might have generated some more impact that you can't see from stats because of how good his shooting was. Hagen doesn't look as impressive to me in footage, but then again his stats don't lie exactly either (they're really impressive for his era). I can see myself switching back to Hagen but for now I'll cast one for Schayes.

C: 1960 Wilt Chamberlain
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#9 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:09 pm

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1960.html
I will be looking at how the players voted for MVP

Yardly pops out
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#10 » by 70sFan » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:38 am

Votes so far:

Guards

Larry Costello 4
Richie Guerin 2
Tom Gola 1
Frank Ramsey 1

Forwards

Elgin Baylor 4
Cliff Hagan 4

Centers

Wilt Chamberlain 4

I can't decide between Schayes and Hagan, especially because I'm a fan of both. Hagan was all-time great postseason performer at his peak, but Schayes wasn't bad either.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#11 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:31 am

If it was peak Schayes then I don't think there would be any question between him and Hagan but Dolph Schayes' last really great post-season came in 55. In fact you could argue his 5 best post-seasons were all in the early 50s. In this era it looks like a very strong regular season with a decent post-season for Schayes vs a decent regular season and a very strong post-season for Hagan. I think that undervalues Hagan in the regular season though. Dolph Schayes was 1st in WS with 13.7 in 58, while Hagan was 7th with 10. In the play-offs it was Hagan that led the league in WS with 2.7 (a full point clear of number 2 Frank Ramsey), while Schayes was 10th with 0.8 WS.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#12 » by 70sFan » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:01 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:If it was peak Schayes then I don't think there would be any question between him and Hagan but Dolph Schayes' last really great post-season came in 55. In fact you could argue his 5 best post-seasons were all in the early 50s. In this era it looks like a very strong regular season with a decent post-season for Schayes vs a decent regular season and a very strong post-season for Hagan. I think that undervalues Hagan in the regular season though. Dolph Schayes was 1st in WS with 13.7 in 58, while Hagan was 7th with 10. In the play-offs it was Hagan that led the league in WS with 2.7 (a full point clear of number 2 Frank Ramsey), while Schayes was 10th with 0.8 WS.

I think that Schayes was excellent in postseason during 1958-60 period. Sure, he usually didn't go deep but in 1959 he played 9 games including 7 games series agaisnt the Celtics when he averaged 28 ppg on 51 TS%.

1956-60 Schayes: 25/15/3 on 51 TS%, 24 PER and .187 WS/48

These are excellent numbers and it's not from single season either. I don't think that Schayes peaked before 1956 to be honest, his scoring got better and better.

Hagan peaked even higher in playoffs, his numbers are ridiculous for that era:

1957-60 Hagan: 24/11/3 on 53 TS%, 23 PER and .213 WS/48

These stats include his rookie year when he wasn't at his best yet.

Actually, I decided to go with 1957/58 Cliff Hagan over Schayes. His postseason stats are out of mind in that season and he had a case for the best player on the title team:

28/11/3 on 58 TS%, 27.5 PER and .312 WS/48

It's arguably the best second option postseason run ever, at least major candidate for that title. Schayes was amazing as well, but I think I'd go with Hagan this time.



His hook was famous, but he was excellent athlete, willing passer and very good rebounder. His shooting touch is also underrated - he's career 80% FT shooter and he shot a lot of midrange shots while having high FG%. On top of that, he's the kind of player who fits well with other stars because he did most of his damage without the ball but he could also handle the ball if necessary.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#13 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:41 pm

I'd like to also like to change my vote from Dolph Schayes to 1959 Cliff Hagen. I think his post season scoring is probably too good to ignore.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#14 » by 70sFan » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:43 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I'd like to also like to change my vote from Dolph Schayes to 1959 Cliff Hagen. I think his post season scoring is probably too good to ignore.

Noted and changed in counting. I'm surprised how stacked this era is at forward spots. Three of Schayes/Yardley/Sears/Stokes/Twyman won't make the third team.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#15 » by 70sFan » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:47 am

Bump, come on guys! 4 votes is very bad for this project, I'll wait a few more hours.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#16 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:07 pm

G: 1958/59 Larry Costello
G: 1959/60 Richie Guerin
F: 1959/60 Elgin Baylor
F: 1957/58 Cliff Hagan
C: 1959/60 Wilt Chamberlain


With Hagan his per 36 numbers are part of why I choose 1958
Hagan has a bunch of years where he gets the job done in the playoffs. He gets better in the playoffs.

I voted Baylor over Bob Pettit for 1st team.
Dolph Shayes is a top tier player year after year, but I prefer the better shooting percentages.

Wilt is obvious.

I feel like Guerin vs Shue is closer than some others think. 1960 Geurin played less minutes but had no playoffs. I can adjust Guerin's numbers up vs Shue because of less minutes. Guerin had better offensive teammates and that is points for Shue. Guerin's passing helped his teammates. Shue was not on Guerin's level as a passer and rebounder in the regular season. Shue did get his rebounding up close to Guerin's level in the playoffs. Shue was Guerin's equal at true shooting percentage. Shue's shooting percentage did drop in the playoffs. Shue was carrying a bigger load than Guerin as Shue was the number 2 guy on a team that only had 2 decent scorers in the playoffs. Maybe only 1 1/2. Scorers in the playoffs because while Shue's volume was high his percentage drop in the playoffs waa not good; but the number 3 man Bailey Howell had a bigger loss of efficiency in the playoffs.

I will give this to Guerin.

Next up Shue vs Costello.
I also feel that Costello is on a better team than Shue.
Shue has Volume. Costello has assists. 1959 Costello is only a little more efficient than 1960 Shue. OK Costello wins this
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#17 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:33 pm

I was wonderring why Mel Hutchens did so well in 1956 MVP voting when his stats were not that special.

"During his Hall of Fame induction speech in August 2011, Satch Sanders said that Hutchins was one of the great defenders who inspired him to play defense at a high level: "He (Hutchins) was so smooth defensively, always in the right place", Sanders told CSNNE.com moments after delivering his acceptance speech. "I thought to myself, 'I sure hope one day I can play like that.'"[13]"

But Hutchens had been out of the league a few years before Sanders was a rookie. How did sanders see Hutchins? Did Sanders go to Knicks games as a kid?

Sanders also said, “Watching (New York's) Mel Hutchins guard Bill Sharman that made me really begin to think about playing serious defense,” But Hutchins was a big man so what was Hutchins doing guarding Sharman?

Dolph Shayes also said that Hutchins was the best defender he ever faced.

Mel Hutchens is Kiki Vandeweghe's uncle.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#18 » by penbeast0 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:52 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I was wonderring why Mel Hutchens did so well in 1956 MVP voting when his stats were not that special.

"During his Hall of Fame induction speech in August 2011, Satch Sanders said that Hutchins was one of the great defenders who inspired him to play defense at a high level: "He (Hutchins) was so smooth defensively, always in the right place", Sanders told CSNNE.com moments after delivering his acceptance speech. "I thought to myself, 'I sure hope one day I can play like that.'"[13]"

But Hutchens had been out of the league a few years before Sanders was a rookie. How did sanders see Hutchins? Did Sanders go to Knicks games as a kid?

Sanders also said, “Watching (New York's) Mel Hutchins guard Bill Sharman that made me really begin to think about playing serious defense,” Bu

Dolph Shayes also said that Hutchins was the best defender he ever faced.

Mel Hutchens is Kiki Vandeweghe's uncle.


Well that explains Kiki's famed defensive prowess. On a serious note, thank you for the insight into a player I had heard little more of than the name.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:03 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I was wonderring why Mel Hutchens did so well in 1956 MVP voting when his stats were not that special.

"During his Hall of Fame induction speech in August 2011, Satch Sanders said that Hutchins was one of the great defenders who inspired him to play defense at a high level: "He (Hutchins) was so smooth defensively, always in the right place", Sanders told CSNNE.com moments after delivering his acceptance speech. "I thought to myself, 'I sure hope one day I can play like that.'"[13]"

But Hutchens had been out of the league a few years before Sanders was a rookie. How did sanders see Hutchins? Did Sanders go to Knicks games as a kid?

Sanders also said, “Watching (New York's) Mel Hutchins guard Bill Sharman that made me really begin to think about playing serious defense,” But Hutchins was a big man so what was Hutchins doing guarding Sharman?

Dolph Shayes also said that Hutchins was the best defender he ever faced.

Mel Hutchens is Kiki Vandeweghe's uncle.

I tried to find some Hutchins footage badly, but I didn't find much. I've also heard that he was known as the best defensive player in the league before Russell.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1956-60 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#20 » by DQuinn1575 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:24 pm

C Wilt 60 - boy was he good
f Baylor 60 - maybe I should have picked him for first team -great rebounder and decent passer besides all the points
f Schayes 58 -close over Hagan, but rebounded and maybe I'm going by reputation.
g Shue 60 - great scorer, which I always like, good shooter
g Gola 60 - always touted as great all-around player, and frankly the guard corps looks so weak.

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