Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#781 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:33 pm

I like how you translated me saying you can't build an offense around Duncan in this era into 'he is questioning Duncan...'

You can't build an offense around Gobert either... Doesn't mean he is still not one of the best players in the league (primarily based on defense of course).

Bruh, teams have been trying to build around guys like AD, Cousins, KAT, Lopez, Vucevic... These are some of the best offensive Bigs in NBA history... Maybe it's a stretch putting Lopez and Vuc in that category, lol, but they are definitely two of the best shooting Bigs ever... They've struggled mightily to do anything of note as offensive engines... But you think a guy with Duncan skillset would be able to do better, when there's absolutely zero evidence for it?
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#782 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:40 pm

colts18 wrote:As a 38 year old in 2015, the Steph Curry era, Duncan made an all-star team while averaging 17-11-4, 56 TS% per 36 then in the playoffs averaged 18-11-3, 60 TS% against the Clippers. That's not a long time ago. An Old Duncan played a key piece on a Championship team. A 40 year old Duncan was a contributor on a 67 win team. This is not ancient history.


Nice Gobert impersonation, yeah. Except Gobert didn't have as good of a coach, system and teammates until this year.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#783 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:47 pm

limbo wrote:I like how you translated me saying you can't build an offense around Duncan in this era into 'he is questioning Duncan...'

You can't build an offense around Gobert either... Doesn't mean he is still not one of the best players in the league (primarily based on defense of course).

Bruh, teams have been trying to build around guys like AD, Cousins, KAT, Lopez, Vucevic... These are some of the best offensive Bigs in NBA history... Maybe it's a stretch putting Lopez and Vuc in that category, lol, but they are definitely two of the best shooting Bigs ever... They've struggled mightily to do anything of note as offensive engines... But you think a guy with Duncan skillset would be able to do better, when there's absolutely zero evidence for it?

Nobody tried to build an offense around Lopez in last years, he's underutilized if anything. Cousins and Vucevic are not on peak Duncan's level offensively and they suck on defense in comparison.

Davis has been doing fine and Pelicans weren't bad on offense with him in most years. Minnesota is terribly run franchise and even then, Wolves were elite offensively in 2018 and above average in 2019.

I'm not saying that Duncan would create +5 offense by himself, he wasn't this good (very few players are). I'm saying that there's no reason to say that Duncan wouldn't be a star on offense anymore. I mean, most perimeter stars can't do things you're criticizing Duncan for either and Timmy gives you GOAT level defense in addition.

Duncan's strength is that you can build decent enough offense around him without great help while getting ATG defense. His strength is also that he scales very well with better teammates, so he doesn't have to be the best offensive player either. Peak Duncan would be by far the best player in the league now and I don't think how you can even doubt that he'd be in conversation.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#784 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:48 pm

limbo wrote:
colts18 wrote:As a 38 year old in 2015, the Steph Curry era, Duncan made an all-star team while averaging 17-11-4, 56 TS% per 36 then in the playoffs averaged 18-11-3, 60 TS% against the Clippers. That's not a long time ago. An Old Duncan played a key piece on a Championship team. A 40 year old Duncan was a contributor on a 67 win team. This is not ancient history.


Nice Gobert impersonation, yeah. Except Gobert didn't have as good of a coach, system and teammates until this year.

Yeah, except that Gobert plays nothing like 2015 Duncan on offense.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#785 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:00 pm

70sFan wrote:Yeah, except that Gobert plays nothing like 2015 Duncan on offense.


You're right. Gobert is a much more efficient finisher but less used as a passer i guess.. Other than that there's really not that much of a difference. We're talking about incremental stuff here in the grand scheme of offensive structures.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#786 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:08 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:Yeah, except that Gobert plays nothing like 2015 Duncan on offense.


You're right. Gobert is a much more efficient finisher but less used as a passer i guess.. Other than that there's really not that much of a difference. We're talking about incremental stuff here in the grand scheme of offensive structures.

Gobert is a player who lives strictly off P&R finishes and offensive rebounding. He's also one of the best screen setter ever. That's when his offensive resposibilities ends.

Duncan had much more sophisticated role on 2015 Spurs. It's not a diss on Gobert, I have him as credible MVP candidate this year, but equating Duncan to Gobert in responsibilties, styles or abilities doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#787 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:29 pm

70sFan wrote:Nobody tried to build an offense around Lopez in last years, he's underutilized if anything. Cousins and Vucevic are not on peak Duncan's level offensively and they suck on defense in comparison.

Davis has been doing fine and Pelicans weren't bad on offense with him in most years. Minnesota is terribly run franchise and even then, Wolves were elite offensively in 2018 and above average in 2019.

I'm not saying that Duncan would create +5 offense by himself, he wasn't this good (very few players are). I'm saying that there's no reason to say that Duncan wouldn't be a star on offense anymore. I mean, most perimeter stars can't do things you're criticizing Duncan for either and Timmy gives you GOAT level defense in addition.

Duncan's strength is that you can build decent enough offense around him without great help while getting ATG defense. His strength is also that he scales very well with better teammates, so he doesn't have to be the best offensive player either. Peak Duncan would be by far the best player in the league now and I don't think how you can even doubt that he'd be in conversation.


Brooklyn did up until as late as 2017. Lopez had the highest usage and FGA on his team by far and averaged 10 post ups per game (which was Top 5 despite the fact that Brook is a great shooter). How was he being underutilized? Do you want him to get 20 post ups like Al Jefferson?

Cousins was definitely more skilled than Duncan on offense, it just rarely materialized because of other factors. Vuc is definitely in the same ballpark at least. Dude has evolved into an insane 3pt shooter and is quite a good interior scorer and passer (though not on Duncan's level).

Davis is a far better offensive talent than Duncan... Yet, the Pelicans 'doing fine' with him as the centerpiece when they barely scraped two +1.0 rORtg seasons is a huge understatement. They managed to do better in 2015 when Davis was less skilled and less of a focal point offensively, ironically.

''I'm saying there's no reason to say that Duncan wouldn't be a star on offense anymore''

Anymore? Didn't i say that Duncan was frequently ranked below the best offensive players of his own era according to multiple plus/minus metrics? He was barely an offensive standout back then, at least a first rate offensive star (although i do think he was more Playoff resilient, i'll give you that, it was harder to knock him off his game)... And the game was way more friendly to his skills back then.

You could build a good enough offense around Duncan from 1998 to 2007 (range of +2.0 rORtg was enough back then with a monstrous defense) to win titles perhaps, but no longer.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#788 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:52 pm

70sFan wrote:Gobert is a player who lives strictly off P&R finishes and offensive rebounding. He's also one of the best screen setter ever. That's when his offensive resposibilities ends.

Duncan had much more sophisticated role on 2015 Spurs. It's not a diss on Gobert, I have him as credible MVP candidate this year, but equating Duncan to Gobert in responsibilties, styles or abilities doesn't make any sense.


The Gobert remark was half-facetious. I do believe Duncan would be a better offensive player today (regardless of era, really) than Gobert, but i don't believe the amount, despite being a clear margin, would be sufficient enough for me to want to consider building my offense around Duncan... Gobert is barely an above average offensive player, if even that, maybe it's matchup dependent, so this bar is extremely low.

The problem is Duncan's ability as a post player/scorer is a severely diminished factor today because teams play through the post SIGNIFICANLTY less than they have when Duncan was in his prime, and Duncan isn't a good enough offensive player to warrant that change (heck, i'm not sure how post heavy today's teams would be willing to play even if they had Shaq on their roster)... So once we severely diminish this aspect (which is an area where Duncan has quite a noticeable advantage over Rudy), Duncan is then relegated to a playstyle similar to what we saw in his twilight years... And you can't carry an offense like that... you're doing supporting actor things... You're mostly screening for others, finishing plays around the rim, making some basic read playmaking... that's it... If you have range then you can space the floor, which is what most top-end offensive Bigs are doing, but Duncan's range is severely limited. Better than Gobert's, but something you would give his team on offense every day of the week...
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#789 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:17 pm

limbo wrote:Brooklyn did up until as late as 2017. Lopez had the highest usage and FGA on his team by far and averaged 10 post ups per game (which was Top 5 despite the fact that Brook is a great shooter). How was he being underutilized? Do you want him to get 20 post ups like Al Jefferson?


I said he's underutilized now, not then.
Look at these Brooklyn teams from 2015-17 period - they were garbage.

Cousins was definitely more skilled than Duncan on offense, it just rarely materialized because of other factors.

That's funny, what exactly makes him more skilled? He was horrible midrange shooter, mediocre inside finisher, very turnover prone and weak post scorer despite volume. That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard to be honest - Cousins more skilled than Duncan? Let me guess, because he shot threes right?

Vuc is definitely in the same ballpark at least. Dude has evolved into an insane 3pt shooter and is quite a good interior scorer and passer (though not on Duncan's level).

No, Vuc is definitely not in the same ballpark.

Davis is a far better offensive talent than Duncan...

Based on what? Based on him being far worse passer and creator?

Yet, the Pelicans 'doing fine' with him as the centerpiece when they barely scraped two +1.0 rORtg seasons is a huge understatement. They managed to do better in 2015 when Davis was less skilled and less of a focal point offensively, ironically.

I mean, Pelicans didn't have much talent and "ironically" they were the best when Davis had the most help - in 2015. He still made them above average, which is better than a lot of perimeter players do with better help.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#790 » by AdagioPace » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:17 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:Gobert is a player who lives strictly off P&R finishes and offensive rebounding. He's also one of the best screen setter ever. That's when his offensive resposibilities ends.

Duncan had much more sophisticated role on 2015 Spurs. It's not a diss on Gobert, I have him as credible MVP candidate this year, but equating Duncan to Gobert in responsibilties, styles or abilities doesn't make any sense.


The Gobert remark was half-facetious. I do believe Duncan would be a better offensive player today (regardless of era, really) than Gobert, but i don't believe the amount, despite being a clear margin, would be sufficient enough for me to want to consider building my offense around Duncan... Gobert is barely an above average offensive player, if even that, maybe it's matchup dependent, so this bar is extremely low.

The problem is Duncan's ability as a post player/scorer is a severely diminished factor today because teams play through the post SIGNIFICANLTY less than they have when Duncan was in his prime, and Duncan isn't a good enough offensive player to warrant that change (heck, i'm not sure how post heavy today's teams would be willing to play even if they had Shaq on their roster)... So once we severely diminish this aspect (which is an area where Duncan has quite a noticeable advantage over Rudy), Duncan is then relegated to a playstyle similar to what we saw in his twilight years... And you can't carry an offense like that... you're doing supporting actor things... You're mostly screening for others, finishing plays around the rim, making some basic read playmaking... that's it... If you have range then you can space the floor, which is what most top-end offensive Bigs are doing, but Duncan's range is severely limited. Better than Gobert's, but something you would give his team on offense every day of the week...


the bolded is entirely speculative. this is quite a narrow view of post-offense.
it doesn't need to generate points directly. Spurs played in the post because it was a way to initiate ball movement and reshuffling, something even Jokic is doing. Even without much range he had the strenght and the craftiness to draw constant attention.
I agree though with the fact that Timmy would play a hybrid role and a modern team wouldn't go at him every possession. He would also need to lose weight to 00-01 level max
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#791 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:21 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:Gobert is a player who lives strictly off P&R finishes and offensive rebounding. He's also one of the best screen setter ever. That's when his offensive resposibilities ends.

Duncan had much more sophisticated role on 2015 Spurs. It's not a diss on Gobert, I have him as credible MVP candidate this year, but equating Duncan to Gobert in responsibilties, styles or abilities doesn't make any sense.


The Gobert remark was half-facetious. I do believe Duncan would be a better offensive player today (regardless of era, really) than Gobert, but i don't believe the amount, despite being a clear margin, would be sufficient enough for me to want to consider building my offense around Duncan... Gobert is barely an above average offensive player, if even that, maybe it's matchup dependent, so this bar is extremely low.

The problem is Duncan's ability as a post player/scorer is a severely diminished factor today because teams play through the post SIGNIFICANLTY less than they have when Duncan was in his prime, and Duncan isn't a good enough offensive player to warrant that change (heck, i'm not sure how post heavy today's teams would be willing to play even if they had Shaq on their roster)... So once we severely diminish this aspect (which is an area where Duncan has quite a noticeable advantage over Rudy), Duncan is then relegated to a playstyle similar to what we saw in his twilight years... And you can't carry an offense like that... you're doing supporting actor things... You're mostly screening for others, finishing plays around the rim, making some basic read playmaking... that's it... If you have range then you can space the floor, which is what most top-end offensive Bigs are doing, but Duncan's range is severely limited. Better than Gobert's, but something you would give his team on offense every day of the week...

I'm not going to discuss about the same things time and time again. You can keep believing that Kemba Walker is better offensive player than any bigman that ever existed ;)

Edit: let me know how is that possible that Embiid posts up 12 times per game and he's not out of the league :o
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#792 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:31 pm

I have to say, I'm sick of this bullsh*t talk. MVP from 15 years ago and one of the greatest players ever wouldn't be able to dominate and be the best player in the league now because we live in such an advanced age, right? I can understand that some people doubt that Russell or Wilt would dominate (although in most cases, it's because lack of knowledge about the era), but questioning Duncan's scalability to this era is just stupid...
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#793 » by limbo » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:00 pm

AdagioPace wrote:the bolded is entirely speculative. this is quite a narrow view of post-offense.
it doesn't need to generate points directly. Spurs played in the post because it was a way to initiate ball movement and reshuffling, something even Jokic is doing. Even without much range he had the strenght and the craftiness to draw constant attention.
I agree though with the fact that Timmy would play a hybrid role and a modern team wouldn't go at him every possession. He would also need to lose weight to 00-01 level max


It's not really speculative, it's an educated estimation based on knowing what type of player Duncan was and how the game is played now...

Jokic is an elite offensive engine because of his ability to play outside the paint and be an ATG passer... It's not because he has 9 touches per game in the post, that's really inconsequential to the grand scheme of things. Dumping the ball into the post can be a great way to take advantage of a switch giving you a juicy matchup here or there. That's it. Using it as a fundamental way of running your offense throughout most of the game is dead and gone. And it doesn't even have anything to do with Duncan. Duncan would still be doing his thing on offense just as effectively as he did in his prime... The problem is the rest of the league is not playing that game anymore, they are busy doing an advanced version of the offense MDA and Nash ran in Phoenix when Duncan was in the final years of his offensive prime.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#794 » by AdagioPace » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:52 pm

limbo wrote:
AdagioPace wrote:the bolded is entirely speculative. this is quite a narrow view of post-offense.
it doesn't need to generate points directly. Spurs played in the post because it was a way to initiate ball movement and reshuffling, something even Jokic is doing. Even without much range he had the strenght and the craftiness to draw constant attention.
I agree though with the fact that Timmy would play a hybrid role and a modern team wouldn't go at him every possession. He would also need to lose weight to 00-01 level max


It's not really speculative, it's an educated estimation based on knowing what type of player Duncan was and how the game is played now...

Jokic is an elite offensive engine because of his ability to play outside the paint and be an ATG passer... It's not because he has 9 touches per game in the post, that's really inconsequential to the grand scheme of things. Dumping the ball into the post can be a great way to take advantage of a switch giving you a juicy matchup here or there. That's it. Using it as a fundamental way of running your offense throughout most of the game is dead and gone. And it doesn't even have anything to do with Duncan. Duncan would still be doing his thing on offense just as effectively as he did in his prime... The problem is the rest of the league is not playing that game anymore, they are busy doing an advanced version of the offense MDA and Nash ran in Phoenix when Duncan was in the final years of his offensive prime.


I think we reached an impasse. You're still stuck with this idea of Duncan isolating for his benefit against a mismatch and doing his things while being inconsequential to his teammates. You seem to have the tools to understand but you seem to be reluctant for some reason. Inside gravity has nothing to do with the amount of touches in the post.......
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#795 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:49 am

zimpy27 wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Comments on the Duncan Video:
- I always perceive him wanting to say Garnett is better but somehow he doesn't want to make such a statement so directly. That's why he keeps adding some subtle comments here and there to suggest that
- on the raw on/off in the mid to late 00s, I think it's very easy to explain. When you have an All NBA level guy coming off the bench and play so many minutes without you it's easy to see this stat being suppressed. Still, RAPM was always seeing him as a Top5 guys (and Ginobili as well)
- No Dirk? Doing Robinson, Kobe and Garnett but no Dirk doesn't make much sense to me...


This is greatest peaks. I think it is possible that Garnett did have an equal or better peak. I also don't know if Dirk had a particularly epic peak. Dirk was amazing for a long time and is obviously an all time great but perhaps didn't have a great peak to discuss. Doing a video on Dirk may have done him a disservice with the stats in comparison to the others.


He says in his Backpicks writeup, he believes Dirk benefitted from an analytically driven team, and the fact that he isn't a great passer (which Taylor values a lot if you couldn't tell from him loving KG), and that Dirk is a not a great defender relative to position at one of the most important defensive positions in the league makes him fall just short in his opinon.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#796 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:58 am

limbo wrote:I like how you translated me saying you can't build an offense around Duncan in this era into 'he is questioning Duncan...'

You can't build an offense around Gobert either... Doesn't mean he is still not one of the best players in the league (primarily based on defense of course).

Bruh, teams have been trying to build around guys like AD, Cousins, KAT, Lopez, Vucevic... These are some of the best offensive Bigs in NBA history... Maybe it's a stretch putting Lopez and Vuc in that category, lol, but they are definitely two of the best shooting Bigs ever... They've struggled mightily to do anything of note as offensive engines... But you think a guy with Duncan skillset would be able to do better, when there's absolutely zero evidence for it?


KAT rated out offensively in 2020 as a better offensive player than Jokic in a majority of plus-minus offensive metrics. Of course, Jokic started off the season slow, but KAT also had his injuries and setbacks. We don't know how KAT would do in the PS, but the point is that KAT most definitely can be an offensive centerpiece based on regular season performances. He has the passing that a big like AD lacks to do it.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#797 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:04 am

limbo wrote:
AdagioPace wrote:the bolded is entirely speculative. this is quite a narrow view of post-offense.
it doesn't need to generate points directly. Spurs played in the post because it was a way to initiate ball movement and reshuffling, something even Jokic is doing. Even without much range he had the strenght and the craftiness to draw constant attention.
I agree though with the fact that Timmy would play a hybrid role and a modern team wouldn't go at him every possession. He would also need to lose weight to 00-01 level max


It's not really speculative, it's an educated estimation based on knowing what type of player Duncan was and how the game is played now...

Jokic is an elite offensive engine because of his ability to play outside the paint and be an ATG passer... It's not because he has 9 touches per game in the post, that's really inconsequential to the grand scheme of things. Dumping the ball into the post can be a great way to take advantage of a switch giving you a juicy matchup here or there. That's it. Using it as a fundamental way of running your offense throughout most of the game is dead and gone. And it doesn't even have anything to do with Duncan. Duncan would still be doing his thing on offense just as effectively as he did in his prime... The problem is the rest of the league is not playing that game anymore, they are busy doing an advanced version of the offense MDA and Nash ran in Phoenix when Duncan was in the final years of his offensive prime.


As mentioned in the Duncan video, Duncan liked the handle the ball a bit for a big. I imagine that in today's game, we see Duncan handling the ball a bit more from the high post area and driving from there. I still think he easily gives all-star value on offense. He will get less post touches, but that strength combination of his will allow him to still drive effectively and I imagine he would still get to the foul line quite a bit.

I think a bigger question, which has not been brought up, is what level of shooter would Duncan be? Would he be like a 2019 Joel Embiid level guy from 3 or could he better? I think that is interesting to think about.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#798 » by GSP » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:09 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
limbo wrote:I like how you translated me saying you can't build an offense around Duncan in this era into 'he is questioning Duncan...'

You can't build an offense around Gobert either... Doesn't mean he is still not one of the best players in the league (primarily based on defense of course).

Bruh, teams have been trying to build around guys like AD, Cousins, KAT, Lopez, Vucevic... These are some of the best offensive Bigs in NBA history... Maybe it's a stretch putting Lopez and Vuc in that category, lol, but they are definitely two of the best shooting Bigs ever... They've struggled mightily to do anything of note as offensive engines... But you think a guy with Duncan skillset would be able to do better, when there's absolutely zero evidence for it?


KAT rated out offensively in 2020 as a better offensive player than Jokic in a majority of plus-minus offensive metrics. Of course, Jokic started off the season slow, but KAT also had his injuries and setbacks. We don't know how KAT would do in the PS, but the point is that KAT most definitely can be an offensive centerpiece based on regular season performances. He has the passing that a big like AD lacks to do it.


Kat got bodied by Clint Capela in the playoffs......
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#799 » by limbo » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:47 am

Yeah, i don't know how someone can watch KAT and think "if KAT can be elite offensively, so can Duncan!"...

KAT shot 8 threes per game last season on over 40% efficiency... That must be some type of NBA record for long range distance shooting by a Center...

He's a historically good shooter for a Big and that's basically the foundation on which his impact can be built and leveraged, both individually (as he lures his defender out of the paint and can use his lightening quick first-step for a 7 footer to drive inside) and how his team use him...

Duncan is the complete opposite... If you are opposing Duncan, you want him to have the ball around the perimeter and you are gonna sag off him as he can not punish you from there...

Duncan's game/role in this era would be much more similar to a Bam Adebayo than a KAT...
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#800 » by 70sFan » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:24 am

Duncan wasn't Shaq though, he didn't live and die in the post. When was the last time you watched prime Duncan game? Or did you even watch Ben's video? I would say no, given that you believe Cousins was more skilled player than Duncan - this is just laughable.

Duncan was much more versatile player than you're giving him credit for.

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