2020-21 RealGM All-Season POY & Other Awards Voting Thread

[Doctor MJ]

Votes have been counted. Details to follow, but your 2020-21 RealGM All-Season Award winners are...

POY - Giannis Antetokounmpo (Mil)
OPOY - Nikola Jokic (Den)
DPOY - Rudy Gobert (Uta) - 3rd time winning
ROY - LaMelo Ball (Cha)
MIP - Julius Randle (NY)
6MOY - Joe Ingles (Uta)
COY - Monty Williams (Phx)
EOY - (tie) James Jones (Phx) & Sean Marks (Brk)

No unanimous winners this year.

Most interesting thing to me is that this is only the 2nd time ever we've had a tie, and the first time was last year, also in the EOY award (Presti & Riley).

[Doctor MJ]

Data first:

'20-21 All-Season Award Tallying Spreadsheet

RealGM All-Season Award Historical Winner List

RealGM All-Season Award Shares - POY, OPOY, DPOY

'20-21 Awards finishes:

POY:
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo (10 1st place votes)
2. Nikola Jokic (4)
3. Joel Embiid (1)
4. Steph Curry
5. Rudy Gobert

Receiving Votes: Kawhi Leonard, Luka Doncic, Kevin Durant

Giannis takes his first POY award, and his second RealGM award having previously won the MIP in '16-17.

OPOY:
1. Nikola Jokic (11)
2. Step Curry (2)
3. Luka Doncic

Receiving Votes: Damian Lillard, Giannis Antetokounmpo

Jokic's first RealGM award.

DPOY:
1. Rudy Gobert (10)
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo (3)
3. Draymond Green

Rudy Gobert's 3rd RealGM DPOY award, and 4th overall as he also won MIP in '14-15.
Receiving Votes: Clint Capela, Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid

ROY
1. LaMelo Ball (5)
2. Tyrese Haliburton (3)
3. Anthony Edwards (3)

Receiving Votes: Isaiah Stewart

Most impressive 3-way race since '17-18 (Ben Simmons, Jayson Tatum, Donovan Mitchell).

MIP:
1. Julius Randle (4)
2. Michael Porter
3. Deandre Ayton (2)
(tie) Joel Embiid (2)

Receiving Votes: Jaylen Brown, Nicola Jokic, Zach Lavine

Much disagreement in this award this year. Interesting that the #2 finisher received no 1st place votes.

6MOY:
1. Joe Ingles (5)
2. Thaddeus Young (1)
3. Tim Hardaway Jr.
(tie) Derrick Rose

Most interesting thing here is perhaps that the NBA's 6MOY (Jordan Clarkson)didn't make it on to a single ballot. Our community is officially thirsty for Joe.

COY:
1. Monty Williams (6)
2. Nate McMillan (2)
3. Tom Thibodeau (2)

Receiving Votes: Quin Snyder, Ty Lue, Mike Budenholzer, Rick Carlisle, Steve Nash

In the end Monty took it decisively.

EOY:
1. James Jones (2)
(tie) Sean Marks (4)
3. Travis Schlenk (1)

Receiving Votes: Jon Horst, Sam Presti

Once again, the EOY is torn like no other award. That makes it interesting, and great fodder for philosophical debate.

[Doctor MJ]

For those interested in how the POY shares look, first, here's that link again:

RealGM All-Season Award Shares - POY, OPOY, DPOY

Active players on the POY list, (and if they've won) (and how they changed this year, where relevant)

10+ POY Shares:
2. LeBron James (9 time winner)

3+ POY Shares:
19. Steph Curry (1 time winner)

2+ POY Shares:
20. Kevin Durant
22. Chris Paul
27. James Harden

1+ POY Shares:
30. Giannis Antetokounmpo (1 time winner) (up, from 38th)
33. Nikola Jokic (up, from 51st)
35. Kawhi Leonard (1 time winner) (down)
37. Anthony Davis (down)
40. Dwight Howard (down)

0.1+ POY Shares:
47. Russell Westbrook (down)
61. Joel Embiid (up, from 103rd)
63. Draymond Green (down)
71. Blake Griffin (down)
75. Rudy Gobert (up, from 115th)
77. Kevin Love (down)
79. Jimmy Butler (down)
82. Derrick Rose (down)

0.01+ POY Shares:

83. Luka Doncic (up, from 89th)
87. Paul George (down)
93. Victor Oladipo (down)

Others with Shares: Carmelo Anthony, Andre Iguodala, Kyrie Irving, John Wall

For OPOY & DPOY we only started this process in '14-15 so bear that it mind.

OPOY List

4+ OPOY Shares:

1. Steph Curry (3 time winner)

2+ OPOY Shares:

2. LeBron James (2 time winner)
3. James Harden (1 time winner)

1+ OPOY Shares:

4. Nikola Jokic (1 time winner)

0.1+ OPOY Shares:

5. Russell Westbrook
6. Chris Paul
7. Luka Doncic
8. Kevin Durant
9. Kawhi Leonard
(tie) Damian Lillard

Others with Shares: Anthony Davis, Isaiah Thomas, Giannis Antetokounmpo

DPOY List

3+ DPOY Shares:

1. Rudy Gobert (3 time winner) (just took Share lead from Green)
2. Draymond Green (3 time winner)

1+ DPOY Shares:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Giannis Antetokounmpo
5. Anthony Davis (1 time winner)

0.1+ DPOY Shares:

6. Joel Embiid
7. Clint Capela
8. Bam Adebayo
9. Ben Simmons
10. Robert Covington
11. Andrew Bogut

Others with Shares: Paul Millsap, LeBron James, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Tony Allen, Al Horford, Andre Roberson, Tim Duncan, Khris Middleton, Andre Iguodala, Andre Drummond, DeAndre Jordan, Hassan Whiteside

[Doctor MJ]

With all votes counted and results posted, feel free to have conversation here in addition to in the Discussion thread.

Thank you for all your participation. I love that we've been able to keep this up. It's great to look back on the years as they recede further into the past, and so see how things continue to change.

Sincerely,
Doc

[Odinn21]

I'm kind of sad because how a single series could sweep many details under the rug. I was feeling like this was going to be exactly like 2002, and that's exactly what happened. Almost to a T since the shares are nearly identical;
2021; 0.887 to 0.780
2002; 0.884 to 0.792

[HeartBreakKid]

Data first:

'20-21 All-Season Award Tallying Spreadsheet

RealGM All-Season Award Historical Winner List

RealGM All-Season Award Shares - POY, OPOY, DPOY

'20-21 Awards finishes:

POY:
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo (10 1st place votes)
2. Nikola Jokic (4)
3. Joel Embiid (1)
4. Steph Curry
5. Rudy Gobert

Receiving Votes: Kawhi Leonard, Luka Doncic, Kevin Durant

Giannis takes his first POY award, and his second RealGM award having previously won the MIP in '16-17.

OPOY:
1. Nikola Jokic (11)
2. Step Curry (2)
3. Luka Doncic

Receiving Votes: Damian Lillard, Giannis Antetokounmpo

Jokic's first RealGM award.

DPOY:
1. Rudy Gobert (10)
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo (3)
3. Draymond Green

Rudy Gobert's 3rd RealGM DPOY award, and 4th overall as he also won MIP in '14-15.
Receiving Votes: Clint Capela, Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid

ROY
1. LaMelo Ball (5)
2. Tyrese Haliburton (3)
3. Anthony Edwards (3)

Receiving Votes: Isaiah Thomas

Most impressive 3-way race since '17-18 (Ben Simmons, Jayson Tatum, Donovan Mitchell).

MIP:
1. Julius Randle (4)
2. Michael Porter
3. Deandre Ayton (2)
(tie) Joel Embiid (2)

Receiving Votes: Jaylen Brown, Nicola Jokic, Zach Lavine

Much disagreement in this award this year. Interesting that the #2 finisher received no 1st place votes.

6MOY:
1. Joe Ingles (5)
2. Thaddeus Young (1)
3. Tim Hardaway Jr.
(tie) Derrick Rose

Most interesting thing here is perhaps that the NBA's 6MOY (Jordan Clarkson)didn't make it on to a single ballot. Our community is officially thirsty for Joe.

COY:
1. Monty Williams (6)
2. Nate McMillan (2)
3. Tom Thibodeau (2)

Receiving Votes: Quin Snyder, Ty Lue, Mike Budenholzer, Rick Carlisle, Steve Nash

In the end Monty took it decisively.

EOY:
1. James Jones (2)
(tie) Sean Marks (4)
3. Travis Schlenk (1)

Receiving Votes: Jon Horst, Sam Presti

Once again, the EOY is torn like no other award. That makes it interesting, and great fodder for philosophical debate.

Just wanted to point out a typo. You listed Isaiah Thomas under ROY not Isaiah Stewart.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm kind of sad because how a single series could sweep many details under the rug. I was feeling like this was going to be exactly like 2002, and that's exactly what happened. Almost to a T since the shares are nearly identical;
2021; 0.887 to 0.780
2002; 0.884 to 0.792

It's understandable to be disappointed in the results when you think that this is due to a certain "prisoner of the moment" myopia on the part of the voter base.

What I'd point out is that none of this stuff we do can be expected to be "correct". It's just a record of what a bunch of people passionate about basketball, and with better knowledge than most, thought at a certain time, and to the extent this has certain biases to it, those represent general phenomena that you'll find analogues to in all sorts of fields of human interest.

Anyway, glad you joined us for it Odinn!

[Odinn21]

I'm kind of sad because how a single series could sweep many details under the rug. I was feeling like this was going to be exactly like 2002, and that's exactly what happened. Almost to a T since the shares are nearly identical;
2021; 0.887 to 0.780
2002; 0.884 to 0.792

It's understandable to be disappointed in the results when you think that this is due to a certain "prisoner of the moment" myopia on the part of the voter base.

Being in the moment is one of the things what makes sports interesting for us, spectators. It's a good thing actually. What makes most of us annoyed by it many people get carried away with it. But the moment, the heat, these are great things.

What I'd point out is that none of this stuff we do can be expected to be "correct". It's just a record of what a bunch of people passionate about basketball, and with better knowledge than most, thought at a certain time, and to the extent this has certain biases to it, those represent general phenomena that you'll find analogues to in all sorts of fields of human interest.

Indeed.

Fwiw, I was not saying the voting got it wrong or correct. We've been part of more than enough voting procedures to know that even when, we don't agree with the results, it's just a disagreement and not a right/wrong situation because what we have in here is educated opinions.

Also, one of my own arguments could be mentioned against what I said. Wording of Player of the Year has a different nuance than the Best player of the Year. I remember mentioning Magic definitely being the PoY in 1987 while Bird being arguably a better player. I don't know if you remember that conversation but I think you were involved in that one.
There's a direct example of this from my all-time favourite; Tim Duncan was PoY in 1999 but he was not a better player than Shaquille O'Neal in that season. Then there was a reverse scenario between the two in 2002. When we look back at 2002, it feels like "Shaq's year" more so than "Timmy's year" with how Shaq ended on a very high note.

PoY has a somewhat vague meaning that can be interpreted differently by individuals. Looking at what I've been saying, I think it's safe to say PoY concept has a closer interpretation to MVP than the best player.

Going back to my disagreement, it was mostly coming from the fact that Giannis missing 2 games in the CF series, and the Bucks winning both of those games with double digits. But, otoh, I can't say that 2021 wasn't "Giannis' year". So, it's all good I think.

Anyway, glad you joined us for it Odinn!

Thanks! I'm glad too. Cheers.

[Dutchball97]

I don't understand the surprise at Giannis being #1 frankly. It isn't like nobody mentioned Giannis among their POY candidates prior to the finals and he definitely added the most value in the post-season out of anyone. If the Nuggets hadn't gotten swept with Jokic being limited in his playmaking and exploited on the defensive end it could've still been different as well but as it stands now you have to be really skewed towards the regular season to have Jokic ahead on the year imo.

[Odinn21]

I don't understand the surprise at Giannis being #1 frankly. It isn't like nobody mentioned Giannis among their POY candidates prior to the finals and he definitely added the most value in the post-season out of anyone. If the Nuggets hadn't gotten swept with Jokic being limited in his playmaking and exploited on the defensive end it could've still been different as well but as it stands now you have to be really skewed towards the regular season to have Jokic ahead on the year imo.

I think you're closer to my position between rs-ps balance than before but it wasn't exactly on Jokic that the Nuggets got swept, was it? This is entirely result focused talking.

Jokic's biggest help in Murray missed one third of regular season and all of the postseason.
Antetokounmpo's biggest help in Middleton was the player with the most play time in Milwaukee, and in Antetokounmpo's absence, he led the Bucks to two double digit victories in the Eastern Conference Finals. He went 29.0/8.5/7.5 on .548 efg in those 2 games. An insane stat for those 2 games; the Bucks never trailed the Hawks in those games. Not for a single second. The score was tied for 68 seconds, and the Bucks led the Hawks for the remaining 94 minutes 52 seconds.

Antetokounmpo had a team performed without him like that, and Jokic had a team without a good #2 offensive weapon for the 2nd half of the season.

[falcolombardi]

I don't understand the surprise at Giannis being #1 frankly. It isn't like nobody mentioned Giannis among their POY candidates prior to the finals and he definitely added the most value in the post-season out of anyone. If the Nuggets hadn't gotten swept with Jokic being limited in his playmaking and exploited on the defensive end it could've still been different as well but as it stands now you have to be really skewed towards the regular season to have Jokic ahead on the year imo.

I think you're closer to my position between rs-ps balance than before but it wasn't exactly on Jokic that the Nuggets got swept, was it? This is entirely result focused talking.

Jokic's biggest help in Murray missed one third of regular season and all of the postseason.
Antetokounmpo's biggest help in Middleton was the player with the most play time in Milwaukee, and in Antetokounmpo's absence, he led the Bucks to two double digit victories in the Eastern Conference Finals. He went 29.0/8.5/7.5 on .548 efg in those 2 games. An insane stat for those 2 games; the Bucks never trailed the Hawks in those games. Not for a single second. The score was tied for 68 seconds, and the Bucks led the Hawks for the remaining 94 minutes 52 seconds.

Antetokounmpo had a team performed without him like that, and Jokic had a team without a good #2 offensive weapon for the 2nd half of the season.

how do you feel about jokic s best series (vs blazers) compared to giannis best series (vs suns) ?

while is true giannis had more help he also played a much tougher defensive team and had a comparable or better scoring series while also adding more value defensively

if we instead compare them both vs the same team (again with the caveat of giannis having better teammates) giannis not only dominated against suns defensively which jokic clearly didnt

he also scored better thsn jokic and imo had a better offensive series overall

is not only who won, is also how they played. is entirely possible thst with a healthy team jokic plays as well in a longer playoffs run as giannis did or dominated the suns...but he didnt, and i dont feel comfortable rewarding hypotheticals that much

jokic -may- have dominated the suns if he had the same level of help as giannis, but is far from granted

[Odinn21]

Comparing best series to another best series is a rather weak argument to me because the nature of postseason play is not stabilised unlike regular season.
Going back to initial comparison with 2002. Was O'Neal better than Duncan in 2002 because his performance against the Nets was better than Duncan's performance against the Lakers? Is that really it?

Also, looking at how they performed against the Suns highlights my point even more.
Holiday shot pretty badly but he was still a borderline elite playmaker. That was #3 player on offense for the Bucks. And the best helps Jokic got against the Suns were Michael Porter who scored 15.3 ppg on .513 ts and Will Barton who scored 16.3 ppg on .547 ts and missed a game. These 2 players did not bring what Holiday brought beyond only scoring.

At this rate, I'm expecting someone to argue for Antetokounmpo being a better offensive player than Jokic because the volume he scored at against the Suns...
That's like me going full fan and saying "Duncan was a better offensive player than Nash because he scored more points". (Their position is being a big on paper but Jokic is PG in a 6-11 body, so I don't think I'm wrong here due a technicality.)

[falcolombardi]

not only the suns series in a vacuum but the playoffs as a whole

giannis best series to me is clearly better than jokic best series ( giannis vs suns against jokic vs blazers)

giannis second best series is better thsn jokic second best for me (giannis vs nets against jokic vs suns)

then jokic has nothingh else left to compare while giannis still has added value in other playoffs series

what arguments, if any, exist for jokic having a playoffs in the same level of value or peak as giannis?

the only one i have seen is hipothetical and based on denver injuries which is not somethingh we can evaluate against what actually happened

i dont want to evaluate jokic on what -hipothetically- he may have played like with more help

[Texas Chuck]

Let me preference my response by pointing out I was very high on Giannis well in advance of championship run and was defending him against some really silly narrative stuff for weeks on here. Not sure if you followed any of that, but you can peruse through the 20/21 season discussion thread to see. So my personal coming to Giannis as POY was not prisoner of the moment.

Going back to my disagreement, it was mostly coming from the fact that Giannis missing 2 games in the CF series, and the Bucks winning both of those games with double digits. But, otoh, I can't say that 2021 wasn't "Giannis' year". So, it's all good I think.

This goes back to my least favorite argument on the board and what always gets me into trouble with the pro-KG crew. His team playng well in a tiny sample without him has no bearing on how good or bad Giannis is. We put way too much emphasis on teammates instead of the player himself when we allow that to have too much influence on our evaluation. KG is a great player because he's great not because his Wolves teammates suck. And the lesson of 04 gets missed over and over.

Here this is a credit to the Bucks team that they won those games without their best player, but it tells me nothing of the quality or importance of Giannis. Unless one really thinks the Bucks could have gotten to that point and then beaten the Suns without him something I would very strongly disagree with.

At this rate, I'm expecting someone to argue for Antetokounmpo being a better offensive player than Jokic because the volume he scored at against the Suns...

Again go back to my previous comments in other threads about how badly underrated I believe Giannis to be offensively because too many people seem to agree with James Harden that just being able to run and dunk is somehow not super valuable. Wild because this board has zero issues with talking about Shaq as an all-time great offensive peak but can't recognize just how mind-blowingly good Giannis has been offensively for 4 years now. I voted him 3rd in OPOY knowing I would be the only one, but he's an amazing offensive player despite the lack of shooting.

That said, he's not Jokic. What Jokic has been doing offensively for years is also spectacular and this year was just out of this world ridiculous. But you can be great offensively and not be the best.

[Odinn21]

Let me preference my response by pointing out I was very high on Giannis well in advance of championship run and was defending him against some really silly narrative stuff for weeks on here. Not sure if you followed any of that, but you can peruse through the 20/21 season discussion thread to see. So my personal coming to Giannis as POY was not prisoner of the moment.

I think this is the most important difference between our opinions because I wasn't high on Giannis as much as you, many weren't. You were and with your already existing opinion, you see his case for the whole season. I don't agree with it but at least it's consistent thinking and I definitely wouldn't argue against it with I've been saying. I don't see it that way, and many people who weren't seeing that way putting Giannis at #1 is solely focused on one particularly great series while there's more to address. That's why I have a disagreement on this topic because it's inconsistent to me. It's a matter of why and how more than what.

But you can be great offensively and not be the best.

Certainly. I thought that there was an insinuation for Giannis over Joker on offensive end and that's why I responded in that manner. I wasn't saying Giannis wasn't hell of an offensive player.

[Dutchball97]

I don't understand the surprise at Giannis being #1 frankly. It isn't like nobody mentioned Giannis among their POY candidates prior to the finals and he definitely added the most value in the post-season out of anyone. If the Nuggets hadn't gotten swept with Jokic being limited in his playmaking and exploited on the defensive end it could've still been different as well but as it stands now you have to be really skewed towards the regular season to have Jokic ahead on the year imo.

I think you're closer to my position between rs-ps balance than before but it wasn't exactly on Jokic that the Nuggets got swept, was it? This is entirely result focused talking.

Jokic's biggest help in Murray missed one third of regular season and all of the postseason.
Antetokounmpo's biggest help in Middleton was the player with the most play time in Milwaukee, and in Antetokounmpo's absence, he led the Bucks to two double digit victories in the Eastern Conference Finals. He went 29.0/8.5/7.5 on .548 efg in those 2 games. An insane stat for those 2 games; the Bucks never trailed the Hawks in those games. Not for a single second. The score was tied for 68 seconds, and the Bucks led the Hawks for the remaining 94 minutes 52 seconds.

Antetokounmpo had a team performed without him like that, and Jokic had a team without a good #2 offensive weapon for the 2nd half of the season.

I was mostly a bit annoyed at the notion that Giannis came out of nowhere in the POY race when I've had him in my top 3 ever since Embiid got injured about halfway through the season. I wasn't the only one at that either.

With Jokic the problem wasn't so much losing or even getting swept but it was the way how it happened. Jokic' playmaking was limited and he got somewhat exposed on defense. A healthy backcourt might solve the first issue but it won't solve the second one. Giannis on the other hand showed out on both ends of the floor. While I don't necessarily think Giannis would do better on the Nuggets or Jokic would have no chance at winning a title with the Bucks, their respective performances created enough doubt on this that I'd find myself a bit biased if I voted for Jokic purely based on what I assume would happen if they switched places.

This just keeps on being the main problem I have with players like KG and Oscar on all-time lists as well. While there is little doubt they could've done more in better situations, rewarding hypotheticals doesn't really sit right with me.

[LukaTheGOAT]

POY is so hard because I think the odds are that the actual best player in the league DOES NOT win a championship inn any given year. The work of Ben Taylor, Andre Snellings, etc. are suggestive of the idea that the best player in the league out put on a random team has on average like a 20% or so of winning.

And then you add that POY is not about who you think is the actual best player is (running hypothetical simulation a lot of times for many of us) but it is about who had the best year and it's like, idk it is hard to tell with the sample.

I think with Giannis, it is fair to have skepticism because people were talking about him as a potentially epic disappointment after Game 2 in the Nets series, and questioning everything about him and how he would be viewed historically as a fraud.

Yet things just went up and up with Giannis. Then he gets injured and the Bucks close out the series the final 2 games without him. And then you have people wondering if Giannis were in a different situation, he would not be afforded the opportunity to play in the Finals because he was injured.

Jokic on the other hand, didn't get injured and was always there for his team. It was him who had to save his diminished team (opposite of the Giannis situation in the ECF).

Overall, I am left uncertain. I think Giannis' play in the Miami series and early parts of the Brooklyn series are likely worse than anything Jokic did in the PS and likely would have kicked him out of the race if a few things go differently (maybe no Kyrie injury).

But the Bucks persevering and getting to play more PS games than the Nuggets allowed Giannis to show more of of what he could do and now there is legitimate discussion about Giannis being the best in the world.

If CP3 still has a shot shoulder or Ayton goes down with an injury, it is possible that we would be saying Jokic is POY potentially, even if the Nuggets don't win a chip.

Because the nature of this award is picking who had the best season in the highest value spots (championship equity) and is based on what happened and not on just how good we think a player is or what we think they could do in a different situation, we see that the exercise naturally leads itself to giving POY to the best player on a championship winning team.

Btw, I voted Giannis because to me, he and Jokic were so close (considering everything I just said) and I am not allowed to give a Co-MVP, so I just went with who I think is the better player as the winner of the award.

[falcolombardi]

POY is so hard because I think the odds are that the actual best player in the league DOES NOT win a championship inn any given year. The work of Ben Taylor, Andre Snellings, etc. are suggestive of the idea that the best player in the league out put on a random team has on average like a 20% or so of winning.

And then you add that POY is not about who you think is the actual best player is (running hypothetical simulation a lot of times for many of us) but it is about who had the best year and it's like, idk it is hard to tell with the sample.

I think with Giannis, it is fair to have skepticism because people were talking about him as a potentially epic disappointment after Game 2 in the Nets series, and questioning everything about him and how he would be viewed historically as a fraud.

Yet things just went up and up with Giannis. Then he gets injured and the Bucks close out the series the final 2 games without him. And then you have people wondering if Giannis were in a different situation, he would not be afforded the opportunity to play in the Finals because he was injured.

Jokic on the other hand, didn't get injured and was always there for his team. It was him who had to save his diminished team (opposite of the Giannis situation in the ECF).

Overall, I am left uncertain. I think Giannis' play in the Miami series and early parts of the Brooklyn series are likely worse than anything Jokic did in the PS and likely would have kicked him out of the race if a few things go differently (maybe no Kyrie injury).

But the Bucks persevering and getting to play more PS games than the Nuggets allowed Giannis to show more of of what he could do and now there is legitimate discussion about Giannis being the best in the world.

If CP3 still has a shot shoulder or Ayton goes down with an injury, it is possible that we would be saying Jokic is POY potentially, even if the Nuggets don't win a chip.

Because the nature of this award is picking who had the best season in the highest value spots (championship equity) and is based on what happened and not on just how good we think a player is or what we think they could do in a different situation, we see that the exercise naturally leads itself to giving POY to the best player on a championship winning team.

Btw, I voted Giannis because to me, he and Jokic were so close (considering everything I just said) and I am not allowed to give a Co-MVP, so I just went with who I think is the better player as the winner of the award.

i wouldnt even say jokic was better in the first two rounds
tbh

considering defense side i may even prefer giannis nets series to jokic blazers series and have miami series on par with jokic suns series since i didnt find either particularly great

after that while it is true jokic may have got further with a better team, the reality is that he didnt so we dont have any actual play to value, all the hipothetical arguments for jokic may apply ti lebron, davis, durant, kawhi, curry, embiid

with a better supporting or health is entirely possible any of those was the player of the year but we dont give them value for what may have happened

even the health argument is somethingh i dont know if i agree with, giannis missed games in the playoffs at a round where jokic didnt reach, the only reason he could get injured in the conference finals is that he -made- the conference finals,

for all we know jokic would have got injured too (maybe worse) if he made it that far.... that is the thingh with hipotheticals, the negative ones are as valid/possible as the positive ones

[LukaTheGOAT]

POY is so hard because I think the odds are that the actual best player in the league DOES NOT win a championship inn any given year. The work of Ben Taylor, Andre Snellings, etc. are suggestive of the idea that the best player in the league out put on a random team has on average like a 20% or so of winning.

And then you add that POY is not about who you think is the actual best player is (running hypothetical simulation a lot of times for many of us) but it is about who had the best year and it's like, idk it is hard to tell with the sample.

I think with Giannis, it is fair to have skepticism because people were talking about him as a potentially epic disappointment after Game 2 in the Nets series, and questioning everything about him and how he would be viewed historically as a fraud.

Yet things just went up and up with Giannis. Then he gets injured and the Bucks close out the series the final 2 games without him. And then you have people wondering if Giannis were in a different situation, he would not be afforded the opportunity to play in the Finals because he was injured.

Jokic on the other hand, didn't get injured and was always there for his team. It was him who had to save his diminished team (opposite of the Giannis situation in the ECF).

Overall, I am left uncertain. I think Giannis' play in the Miami series and early parts of the Brooklyn series are likely worse than anything Jokic did in the PS and likely would have kicked him out of the race if a few things go differently (maybe no Kyrie injury).

But the Bucks persevering and getting to play more PS games than the Nuggets allowed Giannis to show more of of what he could do and now there is legitimate discussion about Giannis being the best in the world.

If CP3 still has a shot shoulder or Ayton goes down with an injury, it is possible that we would be saying Jokic is POY potentially, even if the Nuggets don't win a chip.

Because the nature of this award is picking who had the best season in the highest value spots (championship equity) and is based on what happened and not on just how good we think a player is or what we think they could do in a different situation, we see that the exercise naturally leads itself to giving POY to the best player on a championship winning team.

Btw, I voted Giannis because to me, he and Jokic were so close (considering everything I just said) and I am not allowed to give a Co-MVP, so I just went with who I think is the better player as the winner of the award.

i wouldnt even say jokic was better in the first two rounds
tbh

considering defense side i may even prefer giannis nets series to jokic blazers series and have miami series on par with jokic suns series since i didnt find either particularly great

after that while it is true jokic may have got further with a better team, the reality is that he didnt so we dont have any actual play to value, all the hipothetical arguments for jokic may apply ti lebron, davis, durant, kawhi, curry, embiid

with a better supporting or health is entirely possible any of those was the player of the year but we dont give them value for what may have happened

even the health argument is somethingh i dont know if i agree with, giannis missed games in the playoffs at a round where jokic didnt reach, the only reason he could get injured in the conference finals is that he -made- the conference finals,

for all we know jokic would have got injured too (maybe worse) if he made it that far.... that is the thingh with hipotheticals, the negative ones are as valid/possible as the positive ones

I said the early parts of the Brooklyn series, so generally the first games of the Brooklyn series is what I am referring to.

And my point was that if the Bucks lose against the Hawks in Giannis' absence, Giannis gets a lot less less love for POY because his performances prior were likely not convincing enough.

[falcolombardi]

POY is so hard because I think the odds are that the actual best player in the league DOES NOT win a championship inn any given year. The work of Ben Taylor, Andre Snellings, etc. are suggestive of the idea that the best player in the league out put on a random team has on average like a 20% or so of winning.

And then you add that POY is not about who you think is the actual best player is (running hypothetical simulation a lot of times for many of us) but it is about who had the best year and it's like, idk it is hard to tell with the sample.

I think with Giannis, it is fair to have skepticism because people were talking about him as a potentially epic disappointment after Game 2 in the Nets series, and questioning everything about him and how he would be viewed historically as a fraud.

Yet things just went up and up with Giannis. Then he gets injured and the Bucks close out the series the final 2 games without him. And then you have people wondering if Giannis were in a different situation, he would not be afforded the opportunity to play in the Finals because he was injured.

Jokic on the other hand, didn't get injured and was always there for his team. It was him who had to save his diminished team (opposite of the Giannis situation in the ECF).

Overall, I am left uncertain. I think Giannis' play in the Miami series and early parts of the Brooklyn series are likely worse than anything Jokic did in the PS and likely would have kicked him out of the race if a few things go differently (maybe no Kyrie injury).

But the Bucks persevering and getting to play more PS games than the Nuggets allowed Giannis to show more of of what he could do and now there is legitimate discussion about Giannis being the best in the world.

If CP3 still has a shot shoulder or Ayton goes down with an injury, it is possible that we would be saying Jokic is POY potentially, even if the Nuggets don't win a chip.

Because the nature of this award is picking who had the best season in the highest value spots (championship equity) and is based on what happened and not on just how good we think a player is or what we think they could do in a different situation, we see that the exercise naturally leads itself to giving POY to the best player on a championship winning team.

Btw, I voted Giannis because to me, he and Jokic were so close (considering everything I just said) and I am not allowed to give a Co-MVP, so I just went with who I think is the better player as the winner of the award.

i wouldnt even say jokic was better in the first two rounds
tbh

considering defense side i may even prefer giannis nets series to jokic blazers series and have miami series on par with jokic suns series since i didnt find either particularly great

after that while it is true jokic may have got further with a better team, the reality is that he didnt so we dont have any actual play to value, all the hipothetical arguments for jokic may apply ti lebron, davis, durant, kawhi, curry, embiid

with a better supporting or health is entirely possible any of those was the player of the year but we dont give them value for what may have happened

even the health argument is somethingh i dont know if i agree with, giannis missed games in the playoffs at a round where jokic didnt reach, the only reason he could get injured in the conference finals is that he -made- the conference finals,

for all we know jokic would have got injured too (maybe worse) if he made it that far.... that is the thingh with hipotheticals, the negative ones are as valid/possible as the positive ones

I said the early parts of the Brooklyn series, so generally the first games of the Brooklyn series is what I am referring to.

And my point was that if the Bucks lose against the Hawks in Giannis' absence, Giannis gets a lot less less love for POY because his performances prior were likely not convincing enough.

i agree, i just think luck is part of the game. the luck of nets injuries early in the series allowed giannis the chance to dominate from late in that series and up to the finals (for the record i dont think you can call the hawks series "lucky" for him considering his injury)

but he still did dominate, it still did happen, maybe jokic could have done better in his place, or curry, or lebron or whoever, but they didnt and is kinda pointless to let things that didnt happen be part of a "player of the year" discussion just because they could have

now, if someone thinks jokic played just as well as giannis in the playoffs, or that the regular season Gap is bigger than the playoffs gap? now those are valid reasons to pick jokic or anyone else over giannis, but not based on unfalsiable hipotheticals