GOTE : Greatest of the era

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm trying to reverse engineer this. I'm going with the boxing concept of an undisputed best player. The player listed is not necessarily the best player in every season for that era. But they have a lock for season being considered as a whole. For a player to get the title they have to have consensus MVPs regular dominiant PS performances. It isn't enough to be marginally the best player.

2018 on: No GOTE
2009-2017: Lebron
1998-2008: No GOTE
1996-1997: Jordan
94-95: Vacant
88-93: Jordan
81-87: No GOTE (consensus top 2 Magic/Bird

[euroleague]

The year choices are very arbitrary

1949 to 1964 - Bill Russell, HM: Mikan

1964 to 1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, HM: Wilt

1979 to 1994 - Michael Jordan HM: Magic, Bird

1994 to 2009 - Shaq HM: Duncan

2009 to 2022 - LeBron James

Shaq seems to be seriously underrated. What’s the argument for Duncan from 94-02? 5 years of MVP caliber Shaq vs Duncan barely in the league.

Shaq and Duncan are an interesting argument all time, but if you cut off the last 7 years of Duncan’s career? I see no argument pro Duncan.

[70sFan]

Shaq seems to be seriously underrated. What’s the argument for Duncan from 94-02? 5 years of MVP caliber Shaq vs Duncan barely in the league.

Shaq and Duncan are an interesting argument all time, but if you cut off the last 7 years of Duncan’s career? I see no argument pro Duncan.

I don't know, to me 1993-05 Shaq vs 1998-10 Duncan is very close debate. Far from a clear cut for Shaq.

[feyki]

Following your splits:

Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Kevin Garnett
LeBron James (so far)

As others have said, this hurts players whose careers are split across eras.

Here are the guys I think I’d pick as being the best player over a 15 year run dating back to the earliest eras where a clear pecking order is plausible to establish.

Tarzan Cooper - 20s to 40s
George Mikan - 40s to 50s
Bill Russell - 50s to 60s
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 70s to 80s
Magic Johnson - Early 80s to Mid 90s
Michael Jordan - Mid 80s to Late 90s
Shaquille O’Neal - Early 90s to Mid 00s
Kevin Garnett - Late 90s to Early 10s
LeBron James - Mid 00s to Early 20s

Shout out to:

Bob Kurland, may have been better than Mikan
Larry Bird, strong alternative to Magic.
Tim Duncan, strong alternative to Garnett
Steph Curry, in the lead right now in the post-LeBron generation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Late 20's to 40;
Nat Holman
John Beckman,

40's;
Leroy Edwards
Bobby McDermott,

then Bob Davies and the very next year Mikan arrived. Don't know about Tarzan Cooper,but probably he was the player like Buddy Jeannette, incredible hype over the years like the avalanche, but when compared to him to names like Leroy,Davies or McDermott he was clearly not in the same tier as them.

Ah, you're focusing on white basketball exclusively, which is all you'll see from many sources. To give a little history here:

So far as I can tell the 1910s saw a completely effective separation between white & black basketball. If Ed Wachter represented the top player from the '10s and earlier in white basketball, Cumberland Posey would represent black basketball.

In the '20s we saw a coming together of top teams across races. Not in the same leagues, but the top teams were never focused simply on leagues. The top team from the 1920s, from what I see, was the white Original Celtics which included Beckman, Holman, Dutch Dehnert & Joe Lapchick. I'd tend to call either Holman or Dehnert as the top players of this age, with Lapchick likely being the top white pro player of the '30s (Holman & Beckman retired by the '30s).

The black team that emerged as the top contender against the Celtics was the New York Rens. In the '20s led by Fats Jenkins, they played second fiddle, by the '30s what I see indicates that the Rens were the best team in the world with Tarzan Cooper seen as the biggest star.

The World Professional Basketball Tournament would begin in 1939, and in 3 out of the first 5 years, a black team would win - Rens, Globetrotters, and finally the undefeated Washington Bears who were made up of former Rens.

When you speak to Leroy Edwards, he was the star of Oshkosh, but Oshkosh didn't win either NBL championships or WPBT titles until the '40s, and in both leagues had a tendency to play second fiddle to other teams. While you can argue that Edwards was the top player of the mini-era, he definitely wasn't clearly ahead of all black players in the world.

White basketball really only took control of the sport again in 1944 as the Zollner Pistons assembled an all-star cast that played and won regularly in the NBL with McDermott as the top star of the era. I do think he warrants conversation as the top player of an extended era, but we really are just talking about a 3 year window before Davies & Rochester Royals surpassed him, and then basically just another year before Mikan dominated the world.

For put another way: The best pro basketball team in the world in 1943 was the Washington Bears with Tarzan Cooper as player-coach, and Mikan arrives on the scene in 1946, so there's really not a lot of time for either McDermott or Davies to assert himself as the dominant player for a decade plus the way that can be done with Cooper or MIkan.

Though as I say all this: With barnstorming clubs, it's often impossible to know who was truly the best player in any given year. By 1943, Cooper was in his 18th year as a pro, and was surely in something more of a "veteran leader" mold than he was the guy taking the most shots.

Last shout out has to go to Hank Luisetti who is generally called the best (white) basketball player pre-Mikan, but who never played professionally. I don't think we can truly know whether Luisetti was the best player in the world in the late '30s, but he certainly captivated audiences like no one else.

Really appreciated for talking about the pre-NBA.


Honestly, I read lots of late 20's to BAA/NBL merge on specially APBR. Also, basketball reference added NBL stats and awards afterwards, then I settled my view, mostly, at least about the NBL.

Nat Holman was like Jordan in that era, he seen as the Batman of the Original Celtics. Beckman was under his shadow,sure, in the Celts; but If I don't remember he led Cleveland to some serious achievements in the early or mid 30's. Both legend was like Curry, most skilled players of their era and being most skilled was the most important thing at the time.

Definitely different game, but I would prefer that game over physicality and under the basket dominance universe. Look at the top tier legends of that era; McDermott,Davies,Nat Holman,John Beckmann, most of the top tier legends were 6 foot or shorter. Basically, lots of Curry's,Nash's. I'd think real basketball is this, not the synthetic basketball like the NBA has had over the 60/65 years with contact and space rules. It's really hurting skill level or putting that skill level on the court in the NBA. Euroleague and european basketball is good place to realize basketball without NBA's rules or FIBA and Olympics. Yannis didn't even play in the main league of Greece, but Doncic has been the Euroleague MVP.

Leroy Edward was really an outlier of his era. Check it, his dominance was like Pettit's in the late(or second half) 50's. You know, If Bill Russell was not there, Pettit was the second GOAT after Mikan.

[zimpy27]

The year choices are very arbitrary

1949 to 1964 - Bill Russell, HM: Mikan

1964 to 1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, HM: Wilt

1979 to 1994 - Michael Jordan HM: Magic, Bird

1994 to 2009 - Shaq HM: Duncan

2009 to 2022 - LeBron James

Shaq seems to be seriously underrated. What’s the argument for Duncan from 94-02? 5 years of MVP caliber Shaq vs Duncan barely in the league.

Shaq and Duncan are an interesting argument all time, but if you cut off the last 7 years of Duncan’s career? I see no argument pro Duncan.

Year choices are based around the 15 year period between when the 3 point line was introduced and when the 3 point line was moved for to dramatically lift its usage. I feel like that's one era (the 3 line was there but no one really knew how to use it strategically).

A 15 year period is also an average great career length, so I figured using that length around the above era might make for a good non-biased demarcation of eras.

I think the fact that the top 5-6 players on most top 10 lists are leading each of the non-biased eras suggests that it works pretty well. I think the top 5 are probably boosted by the fact that they were the best in a 15 year period.

[Doctor MJ]

Late 20's to 40;
Nat Holman
John Beckman,

40's;
Leroy Edwards
Bobby McDermott,

then Bob Davies and the very next year Mikan arrived. Don't know about Tarzan Cooper,but probably he was the player like Buddy Jeannette, incredible hype over the years like the avalanche, but when compared to him to names like Leroy,Davies or McDermott he was clearly not in the same tier as them.

Ah, you're focusing on white basketball exclusively, which is all you'll see from many sources. To give a little history here:

So far as I can tell the 1910s saw a completely effective separation between white & black basketball. If Ed Wachter represented the top player from the '10s and earlier in white basketball, Cumberland Posey would represent black basketball.

In the '20s we saw a coming together of top teams across races. Not in the same leagues, but the top teams were never focused simply on leagues. The top team from the 1920s, from what I see, was the white Original Celtics which included Beckman, Holman, Dutch Dehnert & Joe Lapchick. I'd tend to call either Holman or Dehnert as the top players of this age, with Lapchick likely being the top white pro player of the '30s (Holman & Beckman retired by the '30s).

The black team that emerged as the top contender against the Celtics was the New York Rens. In the '20s led by Fats Jenkins, they played second fiddle, by the '30s what I see indicates that the Rens were the best team in the world with Tarzan Cooper seen as the biggest star.

The World Professional Basketball Tournament would begin in 1939, and in 3 out of the first 5 years, a black team would win - Rens, Globetrotters, and finally the undefeated Washington Bears who were made up of former Rens.

When you speak to Leroy Edwards, he was the star of Oshkosh, but Oshkosh didn't win either NBL championships or WPBT titles until the '40s, and in both leagues had a tendency to play second fiddle to other teams. While you can argue that Edwards was the top player of the mini-era, he definitely wasn't clearly ahead of all black players in the world.

White basketball really only took control of the sport again in 1944 as the Zollner Pistons assembled an all-star cast that played and won regularly in the NBL with McDermott as the top star of the era. I do think he warrants conversation as the top player of an extended era, but we really are just talking about a 3 year window before Davies & Rochester Royals surpassed him, and then basically just another year before Mikan dominated the world.

For put another way: The best pro basketball team in the world in 1943 was the Washington Bears with Tarzan Cooper as player-coach, and Mikan arrives on the scene in 1946, so there's really not a lot of time for either McDermott or Davies to assert himself as the dominant player for a decade plus the way that can be done with Cooper or MIkan.

Though as I say all this: With barnstorming clubs, it's often impossible to know who was truly the best player in any given year. By 1943, Cooper was in his 18th year as a pro, and was surely in something more of a "veteran leader" mold than he was the guy taking the most shots.

Last shout out has to go to Hank Luisetti who is generally called the best (white) basketball player pre-Mikan, but who never played professionally. I don't think we can truly know whether Luisetti was the best player in the world in the late '30s, but he certainly captivated audiences like no one else.

Really appreciated for talking about the pre-NBA.


Honestly, I read lots of late 20's to BAA/NBL merge on specially APBR. Also, basketball reference added NBL stats and awards afterwards, then I settled my view, mostly, at least about the NBL.

Nat Holman was like Jordan in that era, he seen as the Batman of the Original Celtics. Beckman was under his shadow,sure, in the Celts; but If I don't remember he led Cleveland to some serious achievements in the early or mid 30's. Both legend was like Curry, most skilled players of their era and being most skilled was the most important thing at the time.

Definitely different game, but I would prefer that game over physicality and under the basket dominance universe. Look at the top tier legends of that era; McDermott,Davies,Nat Holman,John Beckmann, most of the top tier legends were 6 foot or shorter. Basically, lots of Curry's,Nash's. I'd think real basketball is this, not the synthetic basketball like the NBA has had over the 60/65 years with contact and space rules. It's really hurting skill level or putting that skill level on the court in the NBA. Euroleague and european basketball is good place to realize basketball without NBA's rules or FIBA and Olympics. Yannis didn't even play in the main league of Greece, but Doncic has been the Euroleague MVP.

Leroy Edward was really an outlier of his era. Check it, his dominance was like Pettit's in the late(or second half) 50's. You know, If Bill Russell was not there, Pettit was the second GOAT after Mikan.

Cool! Really want to be clear that there's much I don't know here so I'm really just giving my impression pieced together by the things that have stood out to me. Like I say, I do find the way white basketball ignored black basketball in this time frame to be startling. One thing to have separate leagues, another thing to pretend blacks weren't playing basketball.

If we go by the Half-Century poll, for example, I don't believe there's a single vote for any black basketball player despite 25 players getting votes, and Joe Lapchick being on the list who was quite vocal about Tarzan Cooper surpassing him. Pretty clearly seems a situation where all the voters just took it as a given that black players were not to be considered.

Re: NBL focus. Yeah, I think what I'd say is that there were various leagues in play in the '20s & '30s, but none had a clear cut supremacy over the game the way that the 1940s NBL would eventually develop as so many young men got called off to war, but certain midwestern corporations were able to keep their "employees" out of the war because the company was machining stuff for the war.

One thing I find remarkable is the fact that Hank Luisetti was considered greater than the pros of the '30s. In the comparison with Edwards, there is at least something of an apples-to-apples comparison because Edwards was the Helms college POY in '34-35, while Luisetti took the award in both '36-37 & '37-38. While we shouldn't give too much credit to observers back then in terms of their ability to know who was truly better, what can be said is that Luisetti came along after Edwards and made a MUCH bigger impression than Edwards. While it's certainly possible Edwards evolved into the superior player because he continued on as a pro, it's telling that Luisetti ranked so much higher than Edwards on lists later on. Clearly people at the time weren't that impressed by pro leagues, rightly or wrongly

Bobby McDermott is interesting because he was a high school drop out, and was leading a team (Brooklyn Visitations) to a pro championship (ABL) at about the time Luisetti came to college. Was it really logical to say that this new college kid (Luisetti) was better than a champion pro? Why do people see Luisetti as a fundamentally new phenomenon when McDermott and his long distance shooting was already a thing? We'll never know, but given that Luisetti became a phenomenon when he came to MSG and the East Coast Media swooned for him, and the fact that McDermott was playing for an NYC team, you'd think that people would have at least some basis for comparison.

Re: analogies. Always just guessing but some thoughts:

Holman - I see Holman as most distinct as a writer and popularizer of the game, which soon led to his college career. Great player no doubt, but I think it's likely that he functioned a bit like the CEO of the Celtics for most of the time he was there. Back then teams played mostly without coaches, so discussion between players informed strategy. I'd imagine Holman was the most powerful voice in the room.

Dehnert - The spearhead/genius of the bunch. When the Celtics were at their most dominant, they played around Dehnert's Pivot Play - he's at the high post, other guys cut around him, he nails them for good looks.

Lapchick - biggest of the Original Celtics, and in the '30s would take control of the team after Holman went off to coach in college. My guess is that he evolved into an excellent Pivot as well, because it was acknowledged (by Holman in "Winning Basketball") that more height would be an advantage for a Pivot and so a Center with great passing skill could be a great Pivot. Eventually, this became so ubiquitous that I believe it caused "Pivot" and "Center" to become synonyms, which they were not originally.

I know less about Beckman. Clearly a great, but not as celebrated as the other 3 when history looked back (see Half-Century) poll. Did win an ABL title with the Cleveland Rosies, but worth noting that the league forced the Original Celtics to break up because they were so dominant. The Rosies, with their wealthy team, had a role both in forcing that break up, and stealing Celtics for themselves. Doesn't take anything away from Beckman, but to me it doesn't represent a wholly distinct era.

I think Hank Luisetti (as well as Bobby McDermott and others I'm sure) represent a paradigm shift toward long-distance shooting that draws a clear line to Steph Curry. I'll note that long-distance shooting was a bigger component of black basketball, from what I can tell, than white basketball in the '10s, until top teams began playing each other cross-race, where the "Scientific Basketball" of the Original Celtics (which Holman wrote about in 1922) beat all comers. In black basketball, this corresponds to the New York Rens - emulating the Celtics - overtaking Posey's Loendi Big Five as the pre-eminent black team of the day. (Posey may have effectively been Luisetti before Luisetti, as he was known for taking deep shots, along with being a super-quick athlete and decision maker.)

Re: Edwards outlier. He was definitely the best NBL player for a chunk of time, but like I said, the NBL wasn't dominating competition with those outside of the league until 1944. If you look at finals results, one of the things you'll see is that when McDermott's Pistons take over, they just plain score more than anyone did before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Professional_Basketball_Tournament

1939 - New York Rens (34 points in finals)
1940 - Harlem Globetrotters (31)
1941 - Detroit Eagles (39)
1942 - Oshkosh All-Stars (43)
1943 - Washington Bears (43)
1944 - Zollner Pistons (50)
1945 - Zollner Pistons (78)
1946 - Zollner Pistons (73)
1947 - Indianapolis Kautskys (62)
1948 - MPLS Lakers (75)

While how many points you score isn't a direct explanation of how good you are, it's pretty clear that the Pistons seem to represent a turning point where scoring seems to look strikingly more modern.

[sp6r=underrated]

The year choices are very arbitrary

1949 to 1964 - Bill Russell, HM: Mikan

1964 to 1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, HM: Wilt

1979 to 1994 - Michael Jordan HM: Magic, Bird

1994 to 2009 - Shaq HM: Duncan

2009 to 2022 - LeBron James

Shaq seems to be seriously underrated. What’s the argument for Duncan from 94-02? 5 years of MVP caliber Shaq vs Duncan barely in the league.

Shaq and Duncan are an interesting argument all time, but if you cut off the last 7 years of Duncan’s career? I see no argument pro Duncan.

The year choice really does impact how you do these eras. I agree that a 1994 to 2009 chunk probably favors Shaq. My disagreement is that not all eras have the same length.

[euroleague]

The year choices are very arbitrary

1949 to 1964 - Bill Russell, HM: Mikan

1964 to 1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, HM: Wilt

1979 to 1994 - Michael Jordan HM: Magic, Bird

1994 to 2009 - Shaq HM: Duncan

2009 to 2022 - LeBron James

Shaq seems to be seriously underrated. What’s the argument for Duncan from 94-02? 5 years of MVP caliber Shaq vs Duncan barely in the league.

Shaq and Duncan are an interesting argument all time, but if you cut off the last 7 years of Duncan’s career? I see no argument pro Duncan.

Year choices are based around the 15 year period between when the 3 point line was introduced and when the 3 point line was moved for to dramatically lift its usage. I feel like that's one era (the 3 line was there but no one really knew how to use it strategically).

A 15 year period is also an average great career length, so I figured using that length around the above era might make for a good non-biased demarcation of eras.

I think the fact that the top 5-6 players on most top 10 lists are leading each of the non-biased eras suggests that it works pretty well. I think the top 5 are probably boosted by the fact that they were the best in a 15 year period.

That's only because of HM. Without HM, I guess it'd be a decent top 5, but I would object pretty strongly to Wilt being left out.

[zimpy27]

The year choices are very arbitrary

1949 to 1964 - Bill Russell, HM: Mikan

1964 to 1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, HM: Wilt

1979 to 1994 - Michael Jordan HM: Magic, Bird

1994 to 2009 - Shaq HM: Duncan

2009 to 2022 - LeBron James

Shaq seems to be seriously underrated. What’s the argument for Duncan from 94-02? 5 years of MVP caliber Shaq vs Duncan barely in the league.

Shaq and Duncan are an interesting argument all time, but if you cut off the last 7 years of Duncan’s career? I see no argument pro Duncan.

Year choices are based around the 15 year period between when the 3 point line was introduced and when the 3 point line was moved for to dramatically lift its usage. I feel like that's one era (the 3 line was there but no one really knew how to use it strategically).

A 15 year period is also an average great career length, so I figured using that length around the above era might make for a good non-biased demarcation of eras.

I think the fact that the top 5-6 players on most top 10 lists are leading each of the non-biased eras suggests that it works pretty well. I think the top 5 are probably boosted by the fact that they were the best in a 15 year period.

That's only because of HM. Without HM, I guess it'd be a decent top 5, but I would object pretty strongly to Wilt being left out.

For what era do you think Wilt was the best player that is distinct from Russell and KAJ?

[feyki]

Ah, you're focusing on white basketball exclusively, which is all you'll see from many sources. To give a little history here:

So far as I can tell the 1910s saw a completely effective separation between white & black basketball. If Ed Wachter represented the top player from the '10s and earlier in white basketball, Cumberland Posey would represent black basketball.

In the '20s we saw a coming together of top teams across races. Not in the same leagues, but the top teams were never focused simply on leagues. The top team from the 1920s, from what I see, was the white Original Celtics which included Beckman, Holman, Dutch Dehnert & Joe Lapchick. I'd tend to call either Holman or Dehnert as the top players of this age, with Lapchick likely being the top white pro player of the '30s (Holman & Beckman retired by the '30s).

The black team that emerged as the top contender against the Celtics was the New York Rens. In the '20s led by Fats Jenkins, they played second fiddle, by the '30s what I see indicates that the Rens were the best team in the world with Tarzan Cooper seen as the biggest star.

The World Professional Basketball Tournament would begin in 1939, and in 3 out of the first 5 years, a black team would win - Rens, Globetrotters, and finally the undefeated Washington Bears who were made up of former Rens.

When you speak to Leroy Edwards, he was the star of Oshkosh, but Oshkosh didn't win either NBL championships or WPBT titles until the '40s, and in both leagues had a tendency to play second fiddle to other teams. While you can argue that Edwards was the top player of the mini-era, he definitely wasn't clearly ahead of all black players in the world.

White basketball really only took control of the sport again in 1944 as the Zollner Pistons assembled an all-star cast that played and won regularly in the NBL with McDermott as the top star of the era. I do think he warrants conversation as the top player of an extended era, but we really are just talking about a 3 year window before Davies & Rochester Royals surpassed him, and then basically just another year before Mikan dominated the world.

For put another way: The best pro basketball team in the world in 1943 was the Washington Bears with Tarzan Cooper as player-coach, and Mikan arrives on the scene in 1946, so there's really not a lot of time for either McDermott or Davies to assert himself as the dominant player for a decade plus the way that can be done with Cooper or MIkan.

Though as I say all this: With barnstorming clubs, it's often impossible to know who was truly the best player in any given year. By 1943, Cooper was in his 18th year as a pro, and was surely in something more of a "veteran leader" mold than he was the guy taking the most shots.

Last shout out has to go to Hank Luisetti who is generally called the best (white) basketball player pre-Mikan, but who never played professionally. I don't think we can truly know whether Luisetti was the best player in the world in the late '30s, but he certainly captivated audiences like no one else.

Really appreciated for talking about the pre-NBA.


Honestly, I read lots of late 20's to BAA/NBL merge on specially APBR. Also, basketball reference added NBL stats and awards afterwards, then I settled my view, mostly, at least about the NBL.

Nat Holman was like Jordan in that era, he seen as the Batman of the Original Celtics. Beckman was under his shadow,sure, in the Celts; but If I don't remember he led Cleveland to some serious achievements in the early or mid 30's. Both legend was like Curry, most skilled players of their era and being most skilled was the most important thing at the time.

Definitely different game, but I would prefer that game over physicality and under the basket dominance universe. Look at the top tier legends of that era; McDermott,Davies,Nat Holman,John Beckmann, most of the top tier legends were 6 foot or shorter. Basically, lots of Curry's,Nash's. I'd think real basketball is this, not the synthetic basketball like the NBA has had over the 60/65 years with contact and space rules. It's really hurting skill level or putting that skill level on the court in the NBA. Euroleague and european basketball is good place to realize basketball without NBA's rules or FIBA and Olympics. Yannis didn't even play in the main league of Greece, but Doncic has been the Euroleague MVP.

Leroy Edward was really an outlier of his era. Check it, his dominance was like Pettit's in the late(or second half) 50's. You know, If Bill Russell was not there, Pettit was the second GOAT after Mikan.

Cool! Really want to be clear that there's much I don't know here so I'm really just giving my impression pieced together by the things that have stood out to me. Like I say, I do find the way white basketball ignored black basketball in this time frame to be startling. One thing to have separate leagues, another thing to pretend blacks weren't playing basketball.

If we go by the Half-Century poll, for example, I don't believe there's a single vote for any black basketball player despite 25 players getting votes, and Joe Lapchick being on the list who was quite vocal about Tarzan Cooper surpassing him. Pretty clearly seems a situation where all the voters just took it as a given that black players were not to be considered.

Re: NBL focus. Yeah, I think what I'd say is that there were various leagues in play in the '20s & '30s, but none had a clear cut supremacy over the game the way that the 1940s NBL would eventually develop as so many young men got called off to war, but certain midwestern corporations were able to keep their "employees" out of the war because the company was machining stuff for the war.

One thing I find remarkable is the fact that Hank Luisetti was considered greater than the pros of the '30s. In the comparison with Edwards, there is at least something of an apples-to-apples comparison because Edwards was the Helms college POY in '34-35, while Luisetti took the award in both '36-37 & '37-38. While we shouldn't give too much credit to observers back then in terms of their ability to know who was truly better, what can be said is that Luisetti came along after Edwards and made a MUCH bigger impression than Edwards. While it's certainly possible Edwards evolved into the superior player because he continued on as a pro, it's telling that Luisetti ranked so much higher than Edwards on lists later on. Clearly people at the time weren't that impressed by pro leagues, rightly or wrongly

Bobby McDermott is interesting because he was a high school drop out, and was leading a team (Brooklyn Visitations) to a pro championship (ABL) at about the time Luisetti came to college. Was it really logical to say that this new college kid (Luisetti) was better than a champion pro? Why do people see Luisetti as a fundamentally new phenomenon when McDermott and his long distance shooting was already a thing? We'll never know, but given that Luisetti became a phenomenon when he came to MSG and the East Coast Media swooned for him, and the fact that McDermott was playing for an NYC team, you'd think that people would have at least some basis for comparison.

Re: analogies. Always just guessing but some thoughts:

Holman - I see Holman as most distinct as a writer and popularizer of the game, which soon led to his college career. Great player no doubt, but I think it's likely that he functioned a bit like the CEO of the Celtics for most of the time he was there. Back then teams played mostly without coaches, so discussion between players informed strategy. I'd imagine Holman was the most powerful voice in the room.

Dehnert - The spearhead/genius of the bunch. When the Celtics were at their most dominant, they played around Dehnert's Pivot Play - he's at the high post, other guys cut around him, he nails them for good looks.

Lapchick - biggest of the Original Celtics, and in the '30s would take control of the team after Holman went off to coach in college. My guess is that he evolved into an excellent Pivot as well, because it was acknowledged (by Holman in "Winning Basketball") that more height would be an advantage for a Pivot and so a Center with great passing skill could be a great Pivot. Eventually, this became so ubiquitous that I believe it caused "Pivot" and "Center" to become synonyms, which they were not originally.

I know less about Beckman. Clearly a great, but not as celebrated as the other 3 when history looked back (see Half-Century) poll. Did win an ABL title with the Cleveland Rosies, but worth noting that the league forced the Original Celtics to break up because they were so dominant. The Rosies, with their wealthy team, had a role both in forcing that break up, and stealing Celtics for themselves. Doesn't take anything away from Beckman, but to me it doesn't represent a wholly distinct era.

I think Hank Luisetti (as well as Bobby McDermott and others I'm sure) represent a paradigm shift toward long-distance shooting that draws a clear line to Steph Curry. I'll note that long-distance shooting was a bigger component of black basketball, from what I can tell, than white basketball in the '10s, until top teams began playing each other cross-race, where the "Scientific Basketball" of the Original Celtics (which Holman wrote about in 1922) beat all comers. In black basketball, this corresponds to the New York Rens - emulating the Celtics - overtaking Posey's Loendi Big Five as the pre-eminent black team of the day. (Posey may have effectively been Luisetti before Luisetti, as he was known for taking deep shots, along with being a super-quick athlete and decision maker.)

Re: Edwards outlier. He was definitely the best NBL player for a chunk of time, but like I said, the NBL wasn't dominating competition with those outside of the league until 1944. If you look at finals results, one of the things you'll see is that when McDermott's Pistons take over, they just plain score more than anyone did before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Professional_Basketball_Tournament

1939 - New York Rens (34 points in finals)
1940 - Harlem Globetrotters (31)
1941 - Detroit Eagles (39)
1942 - Oshkosh All-Stars (43)
1943 - Washington Bears (43)
1944 - Zollner Pistons (50)
1945 - Zollner Pistons (78)
1946 - Zollner Pistons (73)
1947 - Indianapolis Kautskys (62)
1948 - MPLS Lakers (75)

While how many points you score isn't a direct explanation of how good you are, it's pretty clear that the Pistons seem to represent a turning point where scoring seems to look strikingly more modern.

https://www.apbr.org/tourney.html World Tournament 39/48,
https://www.apbr.org/abl2552.html ABL First Official League 26/35,
https://www.apbr.org/trotters-lakers.html, Harlem vs Lakers Series

. Firstly Afro Legends...

Pop Gates, Probably(as I read) the biggest force of that undisputed Rens team. His dominance and leading his teams to the top make him one of the best players of his era. He also in PPG leaders all time of the World Tournament. Still didn't find any acceptable information about Cooper, probably I'm lacking at independent teams and games in the 30's. I know the presence and the supremacy of the Rens, but first time to I able to check them is 1939 World Tournament and only Pop Gates shined.

What about GlobeTrotters' Big 3? Marquess Haynes was probably the player Bob Cousy learned from him those all flashy and aestethic plays. Marquess Haynes also was leading his team to the highest level of the competition, they forced to LA mostly due to his existence. Reece Tatum had the kind of physicality almost as the Bigs in the 90's. He consistently led the Harlem in scoring against Lakers, it's probably mostly because of his raw power and elite physicality level. Last one is Nat Clifton, you know he was the biggest threat to the First GOAT in the NBA. He was the Ben Wallace of the time. Also, offensively not bad like Ben was, probably Thurmond would be better comparison .

And second part Bigs...

Joe Lapchik as you said was the legend center of the Original Celtics. He was one of the main pieces of the greatest dynasty till the Russell's Celt. Edward Dancker was also a great Big, it was a bad luck played in the same time with Leroy Edwards. Ed Sadowski also was one of the most important players in the 40's. Both Dancker and Sadowski selected in the All-NBL teams. Kurland,Luisetti and also not played in that era but Groza, all are in what-if situations. Don't know how big losses they were to the basketball, when thinking Manigault.

Also, Carl Husto,Borgmann,Nat Hickey,Dutch Dehnert,Puggy Bell(MVP of the Rens in that 39 Tournament); were one of the other best players of the pre-NBA era.

I'd think taking a league as legal and calling others as amateurs probably formed with the BAA and the NBL merge, before that time, I'd rank both independent and official leagues teams with assuming they're at the highest level. Sure, it's toooo limited info to get any idea about them. But Harlem could beat NBL and NBA championship LA and that's why we have to consider of the greatness of Marquess Haynes and also handle one point that Mikan still was the GOAT against elite athleticism. At the end, Celtics and Rens were the two greatest team of the past NBL, then after Oskosh,Pistons and with sneaking to the NBA Lakers.

[Doctor MJ]

https://www.apbr.org/tourney.html World Tournament 39/48,
https://www.apbr.org/abl2552.html ABL First Official League 26/35,
https://www.apbr.org/trotters-lakers.html, Harlem vs Lakers Series

. Firstly Afro Legends...

Pop Gates, Probably(as I read) the biggest force of that undisputed Rens team. His dominance and leading his teams to the top make him one of the best players of his era. He also in PPG leaders all time of the World Tournament. Still didn't find any acceptable information about Cooper, probably I'm lacking at independent teams and games in the 30's. I know the presence and the supremacy of the Rens, but first time to I able to check them is 1939 World Tournament and only Pop Gates shined.

What about GlobeTrotters' Big 3? Marquess Haynes was probably the player Bob Cousy learned from him those all flashy and aestethic plays. Marquess Haynes also was leading his team to the highest level of the competition, they forced to LA mostly due to his existence. Reece Tatum had the kind of physicality almost as the Bigs in the 90's. He consistently led the Harlem in scoring against Lakers, it's probably mostly because of his raw power and elite physicality level. Last one is Nat Clifton, you know he was the biggest threat to the First GOAT in the NBA. He was the Ben Wallace of the time. Also, offensively not bad like Ben was, probably Thurmond would be better comparison .

And second part Bigs...

Joe Lapchik as you said was the legend center of the Original Celtics. He was one of the main pieces of the greatest dynasty till the Russell's Celt. Edward Dancker was also a great Big, it was a bad luck played in the same time with Leroy Edwards. Ed Sadowski also was one of the most important players in the 40's. Both Dancker and Sadowski selected in the All-NBL teams. Kurland,Luisetti and also not played in that era but Groza, all are in what-if situations. Don't know how big losses they were to the basketball, when thinking Manigault.

Also, Carl Husto,Borgmann,Nat Hickey,Dutch Dehnert,Puggy Bell(MVP of the Rens in that 39 Tournament); were one of the other best players of the pre-NBA era.

I'd think taking a league as legal and calling others as amateurs probably formed with the BAA and the NBL merge, before that time, I'd rank both independent and official leagues teams with assuming they're at the highest level. Sure, it's toooo limited info to get any idea about them. But Harlem could beat NBL and NBA championship LA and that's why we have to consider of the greatness of Marquess Haynes and also handle one point that Mikan still was the GOAT against elite athleticism. At the end, Celtics and Rens were the two greatest team of the past NBL, then after Oskosh,Pistons and with sneaking to the NBA Lakers.

- Rens, Pop Gates, Tarzan Cooper. Great points. I alluded to this before - it's very hard to know with these barnstorming teams how the team was evolving over time. Cooper in his 18th season was certainly not peak Cooper after all. I think it's perfectly fine to try your best to do this evolution, and it's certainly on my list to do a finer-grain analysis in the future.

But if we're talking about epochs that are 15-year-ish, which is the context of this thread, I'm tending to look at guys who dominated for a long time. Here's the timeline I see for the Rens:

Formed in 1923, with (25 years old, 6 year veteran) Fats Jenkins as the team's star.
In 1924-25 they are established as the top Black Fives basketball team.
In 1925 Jenkins becomes team captain, aka player-coach. Previously team owner Bob Douglas was coach.
In 1929, Tarzan Cooper (22 year old, 4 year veteran) joins team.

An SI quote on the next era:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1979/10/22/yesterday-the-ny-rens-traveled-a-long-hard-road-to-basketballs-hall-of-fame

From 1931 through 1936 the lineup was immutable, the same seven men against a haze of white faces. They were called the Magnificent Seven—Clarence (Fat) Jenkins, Bill Yancey, John (Casey) Holt, James (Pappy) Ricks, Charles (Tarzan) Cooper, Eyre (Bruiser) Saitch and William (Wee Willie) Smith—and they may have been the finest passing team ever to play the game.

In 1931-32 they surpass the Original Celtics and began to call themselves "World Champions".
Possible peak in 1933 - 88 straight wins
In 1935 Zach Clayton (22 years old, 6 prior team, experience unclear)
In 1936 John Isaacs (21 years old, 1 year veteran) joins the team.
In 1938 Puggy Bell (24 years old, definitely a veteran) joins the team.
In 1938 Pop Gates (21 years old, 1 year veteran) joins team.

In 1939, Win first World Professional Basketball Tournament, Bell named MVP, Bell & Clayton named All-Tournament.

1940 Jenkins retires, Cooper seems to become the new player-coach (but I don't see it explicitly stated).

In 1941, Dolly King (25 years old, definitely a veteran) joins the team.

In 1943, with Douglas in financial struggle, Cooper leaves the Rens and forms the Washington Bears bankrolled by a (white) guy with considerably more money, as brings most of the other Rens with them, and acts as player-coach. They go undefeated and win the World Pro Tourney in a dominant fashion. Accolades:

All-Tournament 1st Team - Gates & King
All-Tournament 2nd Team - Isaacs & Clayton

In 1944 Cooper retires. Bears continue but for whatever reason, don't seem to do much after that. Rens also continue, but are never the same. At this point, the Harlem Globetrotters become the clear cut top Black basketball team.

In 1949 the Globetrotters buy the Rens.

In 1963, the New York Rens are inducted into the Hall.
In 1962, Bob Douglas is inducted into the Hall.
In 1977, Tarzan Cooper is inducted (as Charles T. Cooper) into the Hall.
In 1989, Pop Gates is inducted into the Hall.
In 2015, John Isaacs is inducted into the Hall.
In 2017, Zach Clayton is inducted into the Hall.

Fats Jenkins, Puggy Bell, Dolly King and the others are still not in the Hall, though I expect that will change with the 3 names I mention seeming the most likely candidates for getting in next. Jenkins in particular (imho) is the worst omission not in the Hall that I'm aware of.

Finally some quotes about Cooper and the Washington Bears from a source I found when writing this post.

The Bears won't lack for canny leadership...Boss Bear is Tarzan Cooper, and if there's a smarter head in basketball anywhere it is still to be discovered...Negro basketball followers rate Old Tarzan's pivot play on par with Dutch Dehnert

Tarzan was the supreme center - aggressive clever, elusive, tierless. Everytime he was on the court, Tarz was doing something we could admire and learn from. His skill and effectiveness were so well known and respected that even the big money centers from other teams around the country came to him to learn how to do certain things on the court. He shared himself generously. To his teammates, Tarz was a natural leader. He always gave his best and, while he patiently helped others to learn the game and refine their skills, he was firm and demanding.

The Bears looked even greater than the '39 Rens. Their teamwork was well nigh perfect and their speed so blinding that the other 11 entries resembled novices. The starting team of Sonny Wood, Pop Gates, Dolly King, Johnny Isaacs, and Zach Clayton is the smooest combination the tournament has ever seen. It's greater than any '39 Ren five out of Cooper, Smith, Gates, Fats Jenkins, Puggy Beall and Eyre Saitch.

(So, clearly, Cooper wasn't a starter by 1943 as he led the Bears as player-coach.)

Okay, just finishing up shortly here - we can talk about others certainly if people want:

Globetrotters were clearly a top tier team through the '40s, and guys like Haynes and Tatum are inducted in the Hall as players (whereas the later face of the Trotters Meadowlark Lemon is in as a contributor). I'm definitely aware of the story of the two games where the Globetrotters topped the Lakers and that's not something to be dismissed lightly, but I will say:

1. It's important not to think as if this is the only place where the Globetrotters had access to play top white teams. The Globetrotters won the World Pro Tourney in 1940, and continued to participate through 1945. Their last top performance came in 1944 when they earned 3rd place - which is very good, but they lost in the semis in a blowout to a team that then got blown out by the Zollner Pistons in the finals as the Pistons won their first such title...

Which is why I really emphasize 1944 as a turning point. It was a source of massive bragging rights for Black teams to have won the first two World Pro Tourneys and the first 3 of 5, but after that, NBL teams dominated.

2. There's one bit about the Trotter-Lakers first game that is telling to me: The Trotters used Haynes' dribbling to stall out the clock. This was the real reason why skilled dribbling formed so far as I can tell: Not to try to score, but allow you to maintain possession once you got the lead. It's this sort of play that eventually led to the shot clock. Nothing against the rules - Globetrotters won fair and square - but my impression is that the Globetrotters came away thrilled with the win but recognizing that going forward they could not play competitive basketball with a guy like Goose Tatum - who was only 6'4" - as the closest thing they had to a big man now that a monster like Mikan existed.

The Globetrotters would then acquire then acquire the 6'8" Sweetwater Clifton for the roll to some success - I believe they beat the Lakers again with Clifton as the big - but soon enough Clifton would go to the NBA, and the Globetrotters would go all in on exhibition entertainment rather than true competition.

[Lou Fan]

1949 to 1964 - Bill Russell, HM: Wilt

1964 to 1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, HM: Wilt

1979 to 1994 - Michael Jordan, HM: Magic, Bird, Hakeem

1994 to 2009 - Tim Duncan, HM: Shaq, Kobe, Garnett

2009 to 2024 - LeBron James, HM: Durant, Curry, Giannis

That's probably the top 15 all time right?

I would exclude Giannis for now and replace him with Oscar or West (though Oscar is hurt by these eras). Julius Erving is also hurt by the choice of eras.

You think Durant is top 15 at this point? I don't think he's clearly over Dirk at this point for example.

[70sFan]

1949 to 1964 - Bill Russell, HM: Wilt

1964 to 1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, HM: Wilt

1979 to 1994 - Michael Jordan, HM: Magic, Bird, Hakeem

1994 to 2009 - Tim Duncan, HM: Shaq, Kobe, Garnett

2009 to 2024 - LeBron James, HM: Durant, Curry, Giannis

That's probably the top 15 all time right?

I would exclude Giannis for now and replace him with Oscar or West (though Oscar is hurt by these eras). Julius Erving is also hurt by the choice of eras.

You think Durant is top 15 at this point? I don't think he's clearly over Dirk at this point for example.

I don't have Durant inside my top 15. He's probably below Dirk on my list as well, though I didn't compare their careers closely in a long time.

I don't think people realize how few elite seasons Durant has on his resume, despite playing for a long time. During 2010-22 period, Durant missed 2015, 2020 and 2021 (definitely not enough games to count it). He missed significant parts of 2017, 2018, 2022 (regular season) and 2019 (playoffs) as well. Even with counting 2017-19, that's only 9 prime seasons. Dirk has 2001-11 on his side and he basically didn't miss games in that period.