What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA?

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No-more-rings
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#21 » by No-more-rings » Mon Mar 7, 2022 4:39 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
McBubbles wrote:
I say closer to 37/7/6 on 58TS%

Increased pace + offensively friendlier environment = about a 2 point increase on the same rTS%.

The league average ts% was 57.2 in 2021, this year it's probably at least as high. Kobe was +2.3 in 2006, +3.9 in 07, and +3.6 in 2008. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I'm pretty certain he'd do better than 58 ts% based on that. They aren't perfect estimates, but I feel pretty good with the 60 ts% I mentioned, though honestly he could do even better depending on how well his 3 holds up on an increased volume.


The league average is lower this year than last.

By how much and where'd you get that info?

Is it significantly different? If not, it doesn't change my point.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#22 » by frica » Mon Mar 7, 2022 5:04 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:The league average ts% was 57.2 in 2021, this year it's probably at least as high. Kobe was +2.3 in 2006, +3.9 in 07, and +3.6 in 2008. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I'm pretty certain he'd do better than 58 ts% based on that. They aren't perfect estimates, but I feel pretty good with the 60 ts% I mentioned, though honestly he could do even better depending on how well his 3 holds up on an increased volume.


The league average is lower this year than last.

By how much and where'd you get that info?

Is it significantly different? If not, it doesn't change my point.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#:~:text=TS%25%20%2D%20True%20Shooting%20Percentage%3B,is%20FGA%20%2B%200.44%20*%20FTA.

56.12% currently.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#23 » by Mazter » Mon Mar 7, 2022 5:23 pm

rTS is good for measurement realtive to their own era, but doesn't necessarily translate well to another era. The increase in league TS is because of switch from long 2's to 3's and better FT shooters being fouled. The first wouldn't benefit Kobe that much as it does the league rating, as his long midrange were way above league average. And the second wouldn't benefit Kobe at all, as he wont magically turn into a better (FT) shooter.

These estimates tend to be more based on reputation than on stats. DeRozan is having an exceptional season because he is shooting way above his regular self, which is also way above Kobe ever was. Giving Kobe the same shot selection as DeRozan would bring him to 55.3%/56.4%/54.9% with his 2006-2007-2008 percentages. Therefore at best he would average 27 ppg with the same shots. Could he average more, of course, any one could score more when shooting more. Not that the Bulls would benefit more from it.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#24 » by 70sFan » Mon Mar 7, 2022 5:37 pm

Mazter wrote:rTS is good for measurement realtive to their own era, but doesn't necessarily translate well to another era. The increase in league TS is because of switch from long 2's to 3's and better FT shooters being fouled. The first wouldn't benefit Kobe that much as it does the league rating, as his long midrange were way above league average. And the second wouldn't benefit Kobe at all, as he wont magically turn into a better (FT) shooter.

I agree that rTS% isn't a great tool to make cross-era translations, but I don't agree with your FT shooting take. The difference between 2008-10 and 2019-21 FT efficiency makes almost no difference in average TS%:

2019-21: 77.2 FT%
2008-10: 76.2 FT%

Increasing 2008 FT efficiency from 75.5% to 77.8% (2021) would change TS% from 54.0% to 54.3%. The gap is very small and I picked the worst season out of 2008-10 vs the best out of 2019-21.

These estimates tend to be more based on reputation than on stats. DeRozan is having an exceptional season because he is shooting way above his regular self, which is also way above Kobe ever was. Giving Kobe the same shot selection as DeRozan would bring him to 55.3%/56.4%/54.9% with his 2006-2007-2008 percentages. Therefore at best he would average 27 ppg with the same shots. Could he average more, of course, any one could score more when shooting more. Not that the Bulls would benefit more from it.

I think you have to take into account that teams are significantly more efficient inside today than in 2008. Kobe with 63.7 FG% from inside 3 feet was excellent finisher - that would put him below average today.

Even if you look at someone like LeBron, he's been significantly more efficient at the rim than in 2008, despite massive drop in athleticism. To put it simple - it's much harder to convert inside shots without all this spacing and with two bigmen under the basket.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#25 » by Mazter » Mon Mar 7, 2022 6:08 pm

70sFan wrote:Increasing 2008 FT efficiency from 75.5% to 77.8% (2021) would change TS% from 54.0% to 54.3%. The gap is very small and I picked the worst season out of 2008-10 vs the best out of 2019-21.

Ok, point taken. Doesn't really change much in the grand scheme of things. Kobe would still not be +2-3 rTS% because of the league being 2-3% more efficient.

I think you have to take into account that teams are significantly more efficient inside today than in 2008. Kobe with 63.7 FG% from inside 3 feet was excellent finisher - that would put him below average today.

Which goes along with less shots at the rim, about 31% from 06-08 to 24.1% this season. You can't have best of both worlds. LeBron's efficiency is better because he takes less shots at the rim. Kobe's efficiency would increase if taken less shots, but also with less impact on the total TS%. Besides, Kobe was a great finisher at the rim, but not as efficient as many others in 07-10. I assume that would be the same today.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#26 » by Somegothnerd » Mon Mar 7, 2022 6:22 pm

Hook_Em wrote:
Somegothnerd wrote:06 Kobe would average 40/6/5/2/60% TS. Easily.


Harden/KD were better offensively and never averaged 40. So no.


06 Kobe is a better and more impactful offensive player than those two ever were. So yes.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#27 » by McBubbles » Mon Mar 7, 2022 7:19 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
McBubbles wrote:
Somegothnerd wrote:06 Kobe would average 40/6/5/2/60% TS. Easily.


I say closer to 37/7/6 on 58TS%

Increased pace + offensively friendlier environment = about a 2 point increase on the same rTS%.

The league average ts% was 57.2 in 2021, this year it's probably at least as high. Kobe was +2.3 in 2006, +3.9 in 07, and +3.6 in 2008. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I'm pretty certain he'd do better than 58 ts% based on that. They aren't perfect estimates, but I feel pretty good with the 60 ts% I mentioned, though honestly he could do even better depending on how well his 3 holds up on an increased volume.


I think league average is 56TS% this year. So 58TS% works perfectly for 06 Kobe, or 58.3TS% specifically.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#28 » by rand » Mon Mar 7, 2022 7:47 pm

Mazter wrote:rTS is good for measurement realtive to their own era, but doesn't necessarily translate well to another era. The increase in league TS is because of switch from long 2's to 3's and better FT shooters being fouled. The first wouldn't benefit Kobe that much as it does the league rating, as his long midrange were way above league average. And the second wouldn't benefit Kobe at all, as he wont magically turn into a better (FT) shooter.

These estimates tend to be more based on reputation than on stats. DeRozan is having an exceptional season because he is shooting way above his regular self, which is also way above Kobe ever was. Giving Kobe the same shot selection as DeRozan would bring him to 55.3%/56.4%/54.9% with his 2006-2007-2008 percentages. Therefore at best he would average 27 ppg with the same shots. Could he average more, of course, any one could score more when shooting more. Not that the Bulls would benefit more from it.

I think you make a good point about how specific players from previous eras will receive varying gains in efficiency from playing in today's higher efficiency environment, but you've gotten one big fact wrong which is the increase in league TS is not just due to shot selection shifting from long 2's to 3's. League wide 2P FG% in 2008 was 48.4%, this season it's 52.9%. That's a huge gap and there are three dominant causes for it: increase in interior space, the decrease of rim protection in the average lineup and the decrease in the proportion of long 2P FGAs.

Between 2008 and today, increase in interior space and decrease in rim protection have resulted in the following increased 2P FG% by distance splits:

2022-2008
0-3 ft: 7.5%
3-10: 2.4%
10-16: 3.7%

If we take the FGAs 2008 Kobe averaged from each of those distances and applied these boosts to his 2008 FG percentages, his PPG increases by .052 points.

Now, you say that the switch from long 2's to 3's wouldn't have benefited Kobe as much as the league average because he was a way above average long 2 shooter but this is mistaken. 2008 Kobe actually shot worse on 2's from 16+ feet than league average (.374 vs .409). Though 2008 happened to be one of his poorer FG% on long 2's, even if we take his average FG% on long 2's from 2001-2013 (.407) it's still just at league average (because of the difficulty of long 2's he was often taking). 2008 Kobe's eFG on 3PAs was .542, which means every long 2PA (taking his 2001-2013 FG% instead of his lower 2008) that's converted to a 3PA gains Kobe 0.27 points per shot. 2008 Kobe was taking 6 long 2's per game. If we convert half of those to 3PAs (he would still be near the top of the 2022 league in long 2PAs per game), that would increase his PPG by 0.81 points.

By this rough analysis, taking the same volume of attempts we could expect 2008 Kobe's PPG to jump by about 1.3 points thanks to the more efficient scoring environment of today's era, boosting him from 28.3 PPG to 29.6 PPG, with a TS rise of 2.6%.

The more long 2's Kobe shot in any historical season, the more he benefits from playing in an environment where not only are 3's tactically promoted over long 2's by offensive systems, but defensive structures don't push offensive creators into taking as many long 2's because paints aren't as packed, making it easier to drive instead of jack up a long 2. Every long 2 that Kobe would be able to convert into a FGA at 0-3 feet would have been worth even more than converting that shot into a 3PA.

2006 Kobe was shooting an incredible 9 long 2's per game and averaging 35.7 PPG. Give that version of Kobe the efficiency boost from more interior space combined with the efficiency boost of converting half his long 2's into 3PAs or shots at 0-3 feet and at the same volume of attempts he could be averaging around 37-38 PPG.
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Re: What would Peak Kobe average in today’s NBA? 

Post#29 » by Asianiac_24 » Mon Mar 7, 2022 8:53 pm

Something similar to Harden at his peak, with less assists and TS% but way less TOs and slightly more rebounds.

Something like 36/6/7 on 58-59 TS%.

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