Better peak: Dave Cowens vs Alonzo Mourning

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Basketball reference is listing Mourning as 6' 9" 230 pounds. Mourning was definitely a better shot blocker than Cowens. I Think Mourning was 2 inches taller than Cowens and a better leaper. I always thought Cowens was 6' 8", closer to Unseld's height than to Rick Robey in height.

bbref lists Mourning as 6'10". It lists Cowens as 6'9". But despite Cowens playing in an era where they tended to NOT embellish player height, and Mourning playing in an era where they DID, you nonetheless are saying the gap is even LARGER?

Seems as though you're disregarding evidence to qualify a pre-conceived impression you've held.

For visual evidence (while I'll admit they're not standing up straight in the majority of the following):

Cowens next to Dr. J [listed as 6'7"]....

.....Note Cowens looks just as tall as [if not a smidge taller than] Dr. J's Afro.


Cowens next to Nate Thurmond [6'11"]...

.....Does he look 3" shorter?


Cowens next to Tom Boerwinkle [7'0"]....

.....4" shorter?


Cowens next to Doug Collins [6'6"]....

.....only 2" taller?


Cowens opposite Darryl Dawkins [6'11"]....

......3" shorter?


Cowens next to Tom Heinsohn [6'7"]....

.....Does he look only 1" taller?


For comparison:

Mourning [standing straight] next to a marginally stooped [and old] John Thompson [6'10"] and Pat Riley [6'4"]:


Next to 6'6" Michael Jordan:

Photos are deceptive at measuring height. Look at my last link below, how does JoJo White come out looking only slightly shorter than Cowns and Havilicek. I watched Cowens vs Dawkins playoffs in Bird's rookie season. Dawkins was a lot taller than Cowens.

Cowens last playoffs with the Celtics. Playing Dawkins and Caldwell Jones

Watch on YouTube

Maravich plays 12 minutes for the Celtics in this game

Article on Cowens by Bob Ryan who I think was writing for the Boston Globe, and Covering the Celtics and Red Sox when Cowens played. http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2008/09/blog-post.html

Ryan says Cowens was 6' 8" 1/2

Alonzo Mourning
https://www.olympedia.org/athletes/82807
Presumably from his Olympic measurements
Just over 6' 9" so only a 1/2 inch taller than Cowens

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/333196072416669346/
Photo makes Cowens look only a 1/2 inch taller than Havilcek
But Cowens is a lttle further from the camera, and Jo Jo white comes out not looking much shorter than Cowens

[70sFan]

Basketball reference is listing Mourning as 6' 9" 230 pounds. Mourning was definitely a better shot blocker than Cowens. I Think Mourning was 2 inches taller than Cowens and a better leaper. I always thought Cowens was 6' 8", closer to Unseld's height than to Rick Robey in height.

bbref lists Mourning as 6'10". It lists Cowens as 6'9". But despite Cowens playing in an era where they tended to NOT embellish player height, and Mourning playing in an era where they DID, you nonetheless are saying the gap is even LARGER?

Seems as though you're disregarding evidence to qualify a pre-conceived impression you've held.

For visual evidence (while I'll admit they're not standing up straight in the majority of the following):

Cowens next to Dr. J [listed as 6'7"]....

.....Note Cowens looks just as tall as [if not a smidge taller than] Dr. J's Afro.


Cowens next to Nate Thurmond [6'11"]...

.....Does he look 3" shorter?


Cowens next to Tom Boerwinkle [7'0"]....

.....4" shorter?


Cowens next to Doug Collins [6'6"]....

.....only 2" taller?


Cowens opposite Darryl Dawkins [6'11"]....

......3" shorter?


Cowens next to Tom Heinsohn [6'7"]....

.....Does he look only 1" taller?


For comparison:

Mourning [standing straight] next to a marginally stooped [and old] John Thompson [6'10"] and Pat Riley [6'4"]:


Next to 6'6" Michael Jordan:

Photos are deceptive at measuring height. Look at my last link below, how does JoJo White come out looking only slightly shorter than Cowns and Havilicek. I watched Cowens vs Dawkins playoffs in Bird's rookie season. Dawkins was a lot taller than Cowens.

Cowens last playoffs with the Celtics. Playing Dawkins and Caldwell Jones

Watch on YouTube

Article on Cowens by Bob Ryan who I think was writing for the Boston Globe, and Covering the Celtics and Red Sox when Cowens played. http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2008/09/blog-post.html

Ryan says Cowens was 6' 8" 1/2

Alonzo Mourning
https://www.olympedia.org/athletes/82807
Presumably from his Olympic measurements
Just over 6' 9" so only a 1/2 inch taller than Cowens

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/333196072416669346/
Photo makes Cowens look only a 1/2 inch taller than Havilcek
But Cowens is a lttle further from the camera, and Jo Jo white comes out not looking much shorter than Cowens

I still fail to understand what's your point. You basically proved with primary sources that Mourning was the same height as Cowens. Why would Cowens struggle to play at center in the 1990s?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I still fail to understand what's your point. You basically proved with primary sources that Mourning was the same height as Cowens. Why would Cowens struggle to play at center in the 1990s?

Maybe the problem is that I watched Cowens last 3 years with the Celtics instead of Watching his peak years.
Cowens rebounds per 36 minutes in 1980 was 8.9 Cowens peak rebounds per 36 was 14.5 in 1976. Cowens assists peaked a 4.7 in 1977.Cowens FG% and scoring peaked at 18.2 points at FG% 47.5. Cowens steals per 36 peaked at 1.1

If Draymond Green can play center now then Cowens could play center in the 1990s. But we Warrior fans want to Keep Draymond's center minutes below 10 minutes per game in the current era which is softer under the hoop than either the 1970s or 1990s were.

But Parish in 1981 was a significan upgrade over Cowens in 1980. I saw how Parishes height made Parish more effective than Cowens.
Cowens was moving well in 1980 but I don't have an image of 1973-1976 to compare him to. I did watch playoff video of Cowens vs Bucks and Kareem but I don't remember in what way young Cowens was so much better than old Cowens. Cowens rebounds per 36 peaked at

Mourning was a shot blocking threat, Cowens had 1 block per 36 minutes in 1974 and 1 block per 36 in 1980.
Mourning's best blocks per 36 was 3.9 in 2,000. Mourning's best rebounds was 11.9 per 36 in 2,001. Mourning's best assists was 2.1 in 1996. Career average 19.8 points at FG% 52.7. Mourning averaged 0.6 steals per 36.

I don't think peak Cowens was as good as Peak Parish defensively but I think Peak Mourning was a little better than Peak Parish defensively. My opinion of Peak Cowens is not trustworthy because I did not seem him enough and am confusing him with old Cowens who I saw quite a bit of. I saw a lot of Parish. I did not really see that much of Peak Mourning and I have watched no video of peak Mourning so I am going by old memories. I sort of remember Hardaway, Voshon Leonard Mourning and Sort of remeber Mourning with Muggsey Bouges and Kendall Gill

[Dr Positivity]

Cowens was the KG and Draymond of his era on defense. My impression is the Celtics defense in the 70s was ahead of their time and revolutionized the game due to overall switching style and Cowens mobility making him a different style of defender than the shotblockers. I have him as good on that end as Mourning. On offense though you could argue either way for them.

[sp6r=underrated]

This is Cowens for me. His superior passing abilities/offensive versatility makes him more useful for elite clubs.

Mourning's first 8 years he 19 or more points per game at better than 50% shooting.
He averaged 51.5% shooting in the playoffs. He averaged over 20 points a game his first 7 playoff years.

Mourning is only high volume low efficiency vs the Bulls in the 1995 playoffs 1st round exit, Fg 42% for that series. Do you think FG 52% is low efficiency? His isn't Kevin McHale but I am sattisfied with high volume better than FG 50%

Dikembe was underrated probably because he wasn't a high volume scorer. I would rather have Dikembe than Mourning.

Both of you underrate Mourning. He was much better than Mutombo and arguably better defender due to his mobility, and was a good number one for a very good Miami team.

Mourning was the offensive #1 option for only his first season in Miami when he led the team to a bottom 6 offense.

Totally agree. I like Mourning a lot as a player but he is a good example of how you can score at a decent volume with good efficiency without being a great offensive player.

Mourning was very deliberate in the post. He didn't see great passing opportunities so instead when he couldn't get his high quality hook off he pass out to a non-open teammate and the team would only have a few seconds left to establish a new shot.

Him being your first option prevents you from having a great offense.

[Owly]

Both of you underrate Mourning. He was much better than Mutombo and arguably better defender due to his mobility, and was a good number one for a very good Miami team.

Mourning was the offensive #1 option for only his first season in Miami when he led the team to a bottom 6 offense.

Totally agree. I like Mourning a lot as a player but he is a good example of how you can score at a decent volume with good efficiency without being a great offensive player.

Mourning was very deliberate in the post. He didn't see great passing opportunities so instead when he couldn't get his high quality hook off he pass out to a non-open teammate and the team would only have a few seconds left to establish a new shot.

Him being your first option prevents you from having a great offense.

Quick, without a deep dive thoughts on this thread of discussion here.

+ves for Zo as a scorer/ arguments against arguments for his weakness
Zo was top scorer (ppg) on 2 of 3 Hornets teams (2nd to LJ as a rookie because of minutes), top usage 2 of 3 years (Dell Curry very narrowly ahead in rookie year, close behind in the two others). Hornets offenses 9th, 8th, 9th. I think the Miami team result is a result of a very defensive slanted mindset/strategy (90s Rileyball). Fwiw, Zo was top usage, top scorer on later [better offensively] Miami teams though accounting for Hardaway's creation for others not the guy with the ball in his hands the most.

To my eye late 90s RAPM pegs him as a pretty useful offensive big man.

-ves
Assist to turnover ratio can be a clunky tool because there's other things that go into turnover risk. But up to 2000 (his "healthy", go to-ish period) he's at 0.471188475. I think then that it probably is fair to say that he's high turnover, low assist and that him as an offensive centerpiece probably caps your offensive upside because feeding him first doesn't tend to lead to good outcomes for other players. But this is more speculative than the apparent positive offensive impact and how much this kicks in at what usage and how much of a cost this suggests in the majority of circumstances is fuzzy and may be somewhat low.

[70sFan]

I still fail to understand what's your point. You basically proved with primary sources that Mourning was the same height as Cowens. Why would Cowens struggle to play at center in the 1990s?

Maybe the problem is that I watched Cowens last 3 years with the Celtics instead of Watching his peak years.
Cowens rebounds per 36 minutes in 1980 was 8.9 Cowens peak rebounds per 36 was 14.5 in 1976. Cowens assists peaked a 4.7 in 1977.Cowens FG% and scoring peaked at 18.2 points at FG% 47.5. Cowens steals per 36 peaked at 1.1

If Draymond Green can play center now then Cowens could play center in the 1990s. But we Warrior fans want to Keep Draymond's center minutes below 10 minutes per game in the current era which is softer under the hoop than either the 1970s or 1990s were.

But Parish in 1981 was a significan upgrade over Cowens in 1980. I saw how Parishes height made Parish more effective than Cowens.
Cowens was moving well in 1980 but I don't have an image of 1973-1976 to compare him to. I did watch playoff video of Cowens vs Bucks and Kareem but I don't remember in what way young Cowens was so much better than old Cowens. Cowens rebounds per 36 peaked at

Mourning was a shot blocking threat, Cowens had 1 block per 36 minutes in 1974 and 1 block per 36 in 1980.
Mourning's best blocks per 36 was 3.9 in 2,000. Mourning's best rebounds was 11.9 per 36 in 2,001. Mourning's best assists was 2.1 in 1996. Career average 19.8 points at FG% 52.7. Mourning averaged 0.6 steals per 36.

I don't think peak Cowens was as good as Peak Parish defensively but I think Peak Mourning was a little better than Peak Parish defensively. My opinion of Peak Cowens is not trustworthy because I did not seem him enough and am confusing him with old Cowens who I saw quite a bit of. I saw a lot of Parish. I did not really see that much of Peak Mourning and I have watched no video of peak Mourning so I am going by old memories. I sort of remember Hardaway, Voshon Leonard Mourning and Sort of remeber Mourning with Muggsey Bouges and Kendall Gill

We have a lot of 1973-77 Celtics games available on YT, you don't need to have a picture of younger Cowens in your memory.

[sp6r=underrated]

Quick, without a deep dive thoughts on this thread of discussion here.

+ves for Zo as a scorer/ arguments against arguments for his weakness
Zo was top scorer (ppg) on 2 of 3 Hornets teams (2nd to LJ as a rookie because of minutes), top usage 2 of 3 years (Dell Curry very narrowly ahead in rookie year, close behind in the two others). Hornets offenses 9th, 8th, 9th. I think the Miami team result is a result of a very defensive slanted mindset/strategy (90s Rileyball). Fwiw, Zo was top usage, top scorer on later [better offensively] Miami teams though accounting for Hardaway's creation for others not the guy with the ball in his hands the most.

To my eye late 90s RAPM pegs him as a pretty useful offensive big man.

-ves
Assist to turnover ratio can be a clunky tool because there's other things that go into turnover risk. But up to 2000 (his "healthy", go to-ish period) he's at 0.471188475. I think then that it probably is fair to say that he's high turnover, low assist and that him as an offensive centerpiece probably caps your offensive upside because feeding him first doesn't tend to lead to good outcomes for other players. But this is more speculative than the apparent positive offensive impact and how much this kicks in at what usage and how much of a cost this suggests in the majority of circumstances is fuzzy and may be somewhat low.

Very fair point about the Charlotte years. Quite simply I need to look this over. The last time I thought about that era was when the Knicks played them in the playoffs and a much younger SP6R left very happy. Charlotte did put together a decent offense with Mourning playing a large role and it needs to be considered whether I'm short selling him.

Like a lot of people my views are colored by various biases. For me I was a hardcore Knicks fan during his Miami days and watched all of those ugly games from beginning to end. That sample size does warp my views I saw a completely stagnant offense and probably unfairly blame him for some of it.

I even called myself out a little bit for it here.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2172855#p97405149

I

[Cavsfansince84]

One thing we know for sure is that after the Celtics picked up Cowens they almost immediately went from a mediocre team even as Havlicek became near mvp level to a championship level team which included a 68 win season and then two titles while Cowens finishing 1, 4, 2, 3 in mvp voting from 73-76. I'd also say he got robbed of fmvp in 76. So I think its easy to look back and say he was sort of smallish for his position and not that efficient as a scorer but its really almost like the Bill Russell effect in terms of results and respect he was getting. Which is part of why I am very high on Cowens as an all timer. Winning can go much deeper than just stats which we just saw with Patrick Beverly joining Minnesota where you see players saying he turned around the locker room.

[JordansBulls]

Always felt Mourning like Tim Duncan was best at PF over Center.