Chamberlain replacing Nowitzki 1999-2012

[Mazter]

Sure, but I doubt you can argue that his teams did that despite him. You can also argue that his teams were great "only" in those seasons because his supporting casts underperformed in other seasons.

Realistically, Wilt had quite consistent defensive impact with a few outlier seasons when he didn't put full effort on it.

Dirk played at center full time in 2004 and 2002, he also had significant minutes at center in 2005. Dallas defense in these 3 seasons would be massively better with Wilt instead.

If you don't think there is significant gap between Wilt and Dallas centers on defense, then I think you vastly underestimate Wilt's defensive impact.

Good you brought it up yourself. When the teammates were good, -6.0, when the teammates weren't good, +0.9. I called it "having his moments (read=5* out of 14 years), if you can't understand the meaning of that I can't further help you. Significant gap maybe, but there are no guarantees whatsoever that Wilt could carry the Mavs defense to a gigantic gap year in year out. What is guaranteed though is that replacing a 87.4% FT shooter with a 51.1% FT will be a gigantic gap on offense (on average 3.4 points per 100 poss) year in year out. What is guaranteed is that removing a 47% midrange/38% 3-point shooter from any roster will have a huge impact (-0.9) on offense.

In the end we are not assessing them individually, but as part of a roster. And a roster that was built to function with Dirk, not with Wilt.

*67 was a typo, needed to be 68,

Sometimes, I wonder why people act like Wilt was mentally disabled or something like that. Seriously, you wouldn't use the same criticism towards any other player in the league history.

Mentally disabled are your words, nogt the first time you do this. Wilt had a big ego, and wanting to play every minute and scoring a lot were a result of that ego. As was leading the league in asssists. Would that suddenly change 40 years later, I don't think so. He would still want to play as much as he wanted, he would still want to try to score as much as he wanted. You can call it whatever you want just to try to discredit the idea, but it doesn't change it. And whatever I think of other players in league history is not really relevant for this discussion.

I selected 0. Not that I don't think he couldn't win with the Mavs, could be 1 or 2 as well. But if Dirk did barely win one with these rosters, there is no guarantee that wilt would win any. My bet would be 0, but it would be small bet.

[Statlanta]

2006/2007
I don't like the idea of young Wilt vs. peak Shaq.

I'm also imagine the Mavs fumble the bag roster wise like getting a Center to pair with wilt in 2004

[70sFan]

Good you brought it up yourself. When the teammates were good, -6.0, when the teammates weren't good, +0.9. I called it "having his moments (read=5* out of 14 years), if you can't understand the meaning of that I can't further help you.

I don't think you realize how gigantic the gap between Wilt's worst defensive season is compared to some of Dirk's worst. Wilt's +0.9 is far better than anything Dallas accomplished with Dirk at center. Their absolute best years like 2007 or 2011 weren't impressive either compared to Wilt and Dirk had excellent defenders around him.

As usual, you simply ignore defensive side of the ball and focus on nuances like midrange efficiency.

Significant gap maybe, but there are no guarantees whatsoever that Wilt could carry the Mavs defense to a gigantic gap year in year out.

I think it's guarantee that Dallas with Wilt at center would be at least around league average in 2004, which is gigantic gap compared to what they did with Dirk at center.

What is guaranteed though is that replacing a 87.4% FT shooter with a 51.1% FT will be a gigantic gap on offense (on average 3.4 points per 100 poss) year in year out.

It's cool to adjust efficiency without counting anything else, but you don't take into account that Dallas would draw much more FTs with Wilt instead of Dirk. They would have much more second chances with his offensive rebounding. Finally, they wouldn't play stiffs at center to protect Dirk's inability to protect the paint. I'm pretty sure that not being forced to play Dampier on offense would have at least as big effect as you calculated here.

What is guaranteed is that removing a 47% midrange/38% 3-point shooter from any roster will have a huge impact (-0.9) on offense.

Again, you remove all things Dirk did better than Wilt, without taking into account Wilt's advantages. You also don't take into account that their defense would be better, so even if they offense would regress slightly it doesn't mean they would be much worse.

In the end we are not assessing them individually, but as part of a roster. And a roster that was built to function with Dirk, not with Wilt.

That's a good point and we don't know how well Wilt would fit next to Dallas rosters. That said, there is no Dallas team that wouldn't improve with Wilt on defense and I'd argue a few of them wouldn't lose more on offense.

Mentally disabled are your words, nogt the first time you do this. Wilt had a big ego, and wanting to play every minute and scoring a lot were a result of that ego. As was leading the league in asssists. Would that suddenly change 40 years later, I don't think so. He would still want to play as much as he wanted, he would still want to try to score as much as he wanted. You can call it whatever you want just to try to discredit the idea, but it doesn't change it. And whatever I think of other players in league history is not really relevant for this discussion.

Wilt played in the league when stars played 45 mpg. Wilt played only slightly more than Russell or Robertson. He wouldn't play as much in 2000s, that was era related thing. So was his 50 ppg season, he didn't want to shoot that much - it's his coach that asked him for that. No coach would do that in 2000s. If Wilt really wanted to shoot so much, then why he didn't do that in 1964-66 period?

It is relevant, because you treat Wilt differently than any other player in NBA history. Wilt's stats so called obsession is known only because he had a lot of boxscore records. We don't have enough footage to actually watch games and analyze what happened, so it's easy to simply say that Wilt acted like a imbecile and didn't listen anyone around him. It doesn't matter that the actual footage we have doesn't show him trying to score as much as possible or that his passing was strategic thing that made Sixers a better thing. It's easier to use lazy narrative and say "not the first time you do this" when I recognise it.

I really wish we could talk about Wilt like about any other great player. We don't hear such a lazy takes when we talk about Shaq, Hakeem or Kareem. It's probably because people can actually watch them play and see such narratives have no sense. We can't do that with Wilt, because there is not enough material from that era. I hate when people talk about Wilt like he was some kind of demi-god as well. Why can't we focus on his on-court play, instead of keep talking about him statspadding or being a diva? Who cares about it?

[Texas Chuck]

Dirk played at center full time in 2004 and 2002, he also had significant minutes at center in 2005.

Actually this is not true. And why using basketball reference to determine positions can be misleading.

In 2002 Dallas used a platoon at center prior to the trade for Raef. Dirk was certainly part of the mix, but Bradley, Wang, and Eschmeyer all played center during their minutes and Danny Manning played center as well-much as Walt Williams or Al-Farouq Aminu did during their time in Dallas.

In 2004 they started the season again with a platoon involving Bradley, Scott Williams, and Danny Fortson. Then they just moved Antoine Walker to center full-time.

Dirk did play center in both seasons as did basically every year of his career save his first, but he definitely spent most of his time both seasons at PF. And in 05 Dampier and Bradley combined to play 38 mpg and Alan Henderson logged some center minutes as well. So Dirk did play some center, but obviously wasn't doing it for significant minutes.



Now is Wilt a massive upgrade at center over whoever Dallas was running out there? Of course. But did want to point out Dallas didn't rely heavily on Dirk as their primary center in any of those years.

[70sFan]

Actually this is not true. And why using basketball reference to determine positions can be misleading.

In 2002 Dallas used a platoon at center prior to the trade for Raef. Dirk was certainly part of the mix, but Bradley, Wang, and Eschmeyer all played center during their minutes and Danny Manning played center as well-much as Walt Williams or Al-Farouq Aminu did during their time in Dallas.

All of them (including Raef) started in 57 games. Most of them played garbage minutes. I don't think it was a mistake on Basketball Reference side to call Dirj a full time center in this season.

In 2004 they started the season again with a platoon involving Bradley, Scott Williams, and Danny Fortson. Then they just moved Antoine Walker to center full-time.

This platoon at center played 11.7 mpg in 66 games, 11.2 mpg in 56 games and 9.6 mpg in 27 games. Each of them started for total of 36 games. They basically didn't play in playoffs at all.

Calling Antoine Walker a center is just semantics. Dirk was their biggest player on the floor and their main bigman.

Now is Wilt a massive upgrade at center over whoever Dallas was running out there? Of course. But did want to point out Dallas didn't rely heavily on Dirk as their primary center in any of those years.

Point taken, but then it seems that Dallas couldn't afford playing Dirk at center full-time, which forced them to play stiffs that hurt them on both ends of the floor. I don't think they would have the same problem with Wilt

[Texas Chuck]

I mean I followed the little Mavs pretty closely and can assure that Walker was the center not Dirk. Just like Malik Rose and DeJuan Blair played center next to Duncan despite being much shorter. And yes they platooned and yes they each played limited minutes, but those do add up. I didn't even mention Najara who also played as the center and yes that includes defensively.

Dirk was arguably the best defensive center other than Bradley on those teams, but he was still primarily a PF except in closing situations and yes, he did play more center in the playoffs as Bradley frequently disappeared basically entirely. But in the regular season the team definitely worked to spare Dirk playing heavy center minutes.

The tallest player is not always the center....

I honestly thought a historian like yourself would want these details, but if you don't, you don't I guess.

And while you can say not playing Dirk at center caused them to play stiffs, remember this was the era of big men still. And Dallas was in a division with Duncan and Yao and Shaq was running around. And Pau and Divac and... They had to put some bodies out there to protect Dirk from fouls. And its not like the backup PF's were better players really. What Dallas tended to do in those years was close games with Dirk and Finley as the "bigs" and we saw more and more of that in the playoffs.

But using this as a criticism of Dirk seems well odd really. By the same token Dallas wouldn't have been able to transition to those defensive minded teams that were so successful post-Nash with Wilt instead of Dirk because he couldn't anchor the offense as effectively. I wouldn't criticize Wilt for that. He would still be a terrific franchise player, just different.

[70sFan]

I mean I followed the little Mavs pretty closely and can assure that Walker was the center not Dirk. Just like Malik Rose and DeJuan Blair played center next to Duncan despite being much shorter. And yes they platooned and yes they each played limited minutes, but those do add up. I didn't even mention Najara who also played as the center and yes that includes defensively.

Dirk was arguably the best defensive center other than Bradley on those teams, but he was still primarily a PF except in closing situations and yes, he did play more center in the playoffs as Bradley frequently disappeared basically entirely. But in the regular season the team definitely worked to spare Dirk playing heavy center minutes.

The tallest player is not always the center....

I honestly thought a historian like yourself would want these details, but if you don't, you don't I guess.

I think we have different definitions of positions, because I definitely wouldn't call Rose or Blair centers next to Duncan.

I appreciate your take on this matter and I have to say that I trust your words more than mine, with the mention of different criteria that we judge centers by. I don't think this particular point is that important, so I am willing to agree with your take. I hope you didn't feel disrespected, that wasn't my intention and you should know that I value your opinion a lot.

[Texas Chuck]

I appreciate your take on this matter and I have to say that I trust your words more than mine, with the mention of different criteria that we judge centers by. I don't think this particular point is that important, so I am willing to agree with your take. I hope you didn't feel disrespected, that wasn't my intention and you should know that I value your opinion a lot.

I judge positions by how they are used. Rose and Blair definitely played center in the Spurs scheme so I call them centers. Same with the Mavs guys who played center on offense and guarded the center. Like take the 06 team where Damp/Diop were the centers, but sometimes they played Van Horn and Dirk together and despite Dirk being a much bigger guy, Van Horn defended the centers and played center on the offensive end. This was happening with Walker his one year in Dallas too.

That's why I've been insistent lol. Because I lived through those games and that 04 year is such a painful year because Dallas was sneaky good in 2003 and they blew it up. Now I get they gave Raef that huge deal and then realized his knees were shot so they had to get off his money if they could. And I realize that trading NVE for Jamison made them a lot younger while still having a great offensive 6th man. But that mix never made sense on the court and sure enough despite the all-time offense they were one and done in the playoffs.

Dirk did close a lot of games at center, especially in the playoffs. He defended Duncan and KG more than they defended him which is something I doubt hardly anyone realizes considering their reputations. But they protected him in the regular season from that grind and because they could not afford foul trouble because the offense struggled when he was off the court for years and years post-Nash.

[70sFan]

I judge positions by how they are used. Rose and Blair definitely played center in the Spurs scheme so I call them centers.

I will take your word about Dallas, but I can't agree on Rose/Duncan. How would you define center role? Duncan was Spurs rim protector, post up center, main rebounder and screener. Rose was known for guarding big bodies like Shaq, but the truth is that it wasn't his usual job and Duncan actually guarded Shaq as often as Rose, if not more so in absence or Robinson.

Duncan was clearly a center with Rose lineups. I don't see how you can say it otherwise.

[falcolombardi]

I mean I followed the little Mavs pretty closely and can assure that Walker was the center not Dirk. Just like Malik Rose and DeJuan Blair played center next to Duncan despite being much shorter. And yes they platooned and yes they each played limited minutes, but those do add up. I didn't even mention Najara who also played as the center and yes that includes defensively.

Dirk was arguably the best defensive center other than Bradley on those teams, but he was still primarily a PF except in closing situations and yes, he did play more center in the playoffs as Bradley frequently disappeared basically entirely. But in the regular season the team definitely worked to spare Dirk playing heavy center minutes.

The tallest player is not always the center....

I honestly thought a historian like yourself would want these details, but if you don't, you don't I guess.

And while you can say not playing Dirk at center caused them to play stiffs, remember this was the era of big men still. And Dallas was in a division with Duncan and Yao and Shaq was running around. And Pau and Divac and... They had to put some bodies out there to protect Dirk from fouls. And its not like the backup PF's were better players really. What Dallas tended to do in those years was close games with Dirk and Finley as the "bigs" and we saw more and more of that in the playoffs.

But using this as a criticism of Dirk seems well odd really. By the same token Dallas wouldn't have been able to transition to those defensive minded teams that were so successful post-Nash with Wilt instead of Dirk because he couldn't anchor the offense as effectively. I wouldn't criticize Wilt for that. He would still be a terrific franchise player, just different.

.off topic but how good was najera on those mavs teams? i am mexican so i am curious for him but i was too young and didnt follow basketball back then

[Texas Chuck]

.off topic but how good was najera on those mavs teams? i am mexican so i am curious for him but i was too young and didnt follow basketball back then

He was okay. He was an offensive star at Oklahoma then Dallas had 3 first round picks his draft year and then took him in the 2nd round. When they made the big deal for Juwan, Eddie was the rookie they held out of that deal. He made his way in the NBA by just classic lunch pail hard work and effort type plays. Taking charges, winning 50/50 balls, filling the lane on the fast break sort of stuff.

Physically a bit of a limited player. But a guy who gave you everything he had every night. Definitely a fan favorite.