Best non lebron/bird small forward peak

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Best other small forward peak that I have seen is 1984 playoffs Bernard King. He does not bog down an offense like Dantley. I saw nothing wrong with his defense but I understand that King did not play defense on losing teams.

King had a major injury the next year and came back from that injury as a volume scorer with much less athleticism. Don't confuse older King with peak King.

Maybe 12 playoff games is too short for a peak. But for 12 playoff Games King was incredible. Add that Bernard King to the Iverson- Mutombo 76ers and they beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.

[penbeast0]

Baylor was huge and so far ahead of others at his position in his era, it was alien like. Barry's insane over 30pt seasons were also aghast of everyone else at his position.

(a) Not sure that Baylor would be considered the SF in his peak year of 1963 (or 61 for that matter). He and Rudy LaRusso were roughly interchangeable defensively with LaRusso taking the more dangerous defensive assignment. LaRusso is taller by an inch or two but Baylor is heavier. Baylor works more inside (one of his nicknames was Mr. Inside) while LaRusso was more a jump shooter but Baylor was also the better ballhandler and passer.

(b) Pettit was definitely Baylor's equal and probably stronger on a year by year basis though Baylor's 63 regular season peaked higher than any Pettit season (Pettit's 57 championship run with his ATG 4th quarter takeover against the Celtics may put that season higher overall if you value clutch playoff performances very highly). Hagan was the SF next to Pettit and definitely the 2nd option but was a guy like Hakeem who consistently found another gear in the playoffs.

(c) Barry's play was also impressive, particularly the 75 playoff run but I wouldn't put him in Julius Erving's class and outside of 75, probably would take the stronger Havlicek runs rather than the equivalent Barry year because I value team play and defense highly.

[70sFan]

Best other small forward peak that I have seen is 1984 playoffs Bernard King. He does not bog down an offense like Dantley. I saw nothing wrong with his defense but I understand that King did not play defense on losing teams.

King had a major injury the next year and came back from that injury as a volume scorer with much less athleticism. Don't confuse older King with peak King.

Maybe 12 playoff games is too short for a peak. But for 12 playoff Games King was incredible. Add that Bernard King to the Iverson- Mutombo 76ers and they beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.

King was amazing scorer, but he didn't bring anything else to the table. He was a weak defender and he couldn't pass or rebound at decent level either.

I'm not even sure if he has any advantage as a scorer over Durant, Kawhi or Julius and his all-around game is significantly worse. He's not top 5 level, even at his absolute peak.

[70sFan]

(a) Not sure that Baylor would be considered the SF in his peak year of 1963 (or 61 for that matter). He and Rudy LaRusso were roughly interchangeable defensively with LaRusso taking the more dangerous defensive assignment. LaRusso is taller by an inch or two but Baylor is heavier. Baylor works more inside (one of his nicknames was Mr. Inside) while LaRusso was more a jump shooter but Baylor was also the better ballhandler and passer.

I don't think it's controversial to call Baylor SF next to Rudy. LaRusso took many jumpshots, but so did Baylor and Elgin was mostly a perimeter player. He handled the ball a lot and was the secondary playmaker for the Lakers. He was called Mr Inside because of his slashing game, not because he was a post player.

It's a bit like saying that James was a PF next to Love because Love took more threes.

[penbeast0]

Best other small forward peak that I have seen is 1984 playoffs Bernard King. He does not bog down an offense like Dantley. I saw nothing wrong with his defense but I understand that King did not play defense on losing teams.

King had a major injury the next year and came back from that injury as a volume scorer with much less athleticism. Don't confuse older King with peak King.

Maybe 12 playoff games is too short for a peak. But for 12 playoff Games King was incredible. Add that Bernard King to the Iverson- Mutombo 76ers and they beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.

I've gone back and watched Dantley games to see if he actually held the ball a lot and bogged down the offense and during his peak in Utah at least, it seems to be a false narrative. He liked to use pump fakes and spin moves but didn't hold the ball any more than prime Dwyane Wade and was a decent, if not particularly creative, passer.

His defense wasn't impressive and his coach (Frank Layden) has ripped him publicly but when he went to Detroit, they nicknamed him "Teacher" for his professionalism and work habits and Chuck Daly praised his defense and locker room presence and I respect Daly a lot more than Layden (of course, Dantley could have matured too). He did work slower in Detroit, but it's a blast to watch him abuse Larry Bird in the playoffs.

[penbeast0]

(a) Not sure that Baylor would be considered the SF in his peak year of 1963 (or 61 for that matter). He and Rudy LaRusso were roughly interchangeable defensively with LaRusso taking the more dangerous defensive assignment. LaRusso is taller by an inch or two but Baylor is heavier. Baylor works more inside (one of his nicknames was Mr. Inside) while LaRusso was more a jump shooter but Baylor was also the better ballhandler and passer.

I don't think it's controversial to call Baylor SF next to Rudy. LaRusso took many jumpshots, but so did Baylor and Elgin was mostly a perimeter player. He handled the ball a lot and was the secondary playmaker for the Lakers. He was called Mr Inside because of his slashing game, not because he was a post player.

It's a bit like saying that James was a PF next to Love because Love took more threes.

It's certainly not controversial, it's conventional wisdom that Baylor was the 3 and LaRusso the 4, just that the difference is not that clear. And Baylor was a do it all guy, he slashed, shot, and posted people up. Just an incredibly versatile scorer.

[70sFan]

(a) Not sure that Baylor would be considered the SF in his peak year of 1963 (or 61 for that matter). He and Rudy LaRusso were roughly interchangeable defensively with LaRusso taking the more dangerous defensive assignment. LaRusso is taller by an inch or two but Baylor is heavier. Baylor works more inside (one of his nicknames was Mr. Inside) while LaRusso was more a jump shooter but Baylor was also the better ballhandler and passer.

I don't think it's controversial to call Baylor SF next to Rudy. LaRusso took many jumpshots, but so did Baylor and Elgin was mostly a perimeter player. He handled the ball a lot and was the secondary playmaker for the Lakers. He was called Mr Inside because of his slashing game, not because he was a post player.

It's a bit like saying that James was a PF next to Love because Love took more threes.

It's certainly not controversial, it's conventional wisdom that Baylor was the 3 and LaRusso the 4, just that the difference is not that clear. And Baylor was a do it all guy, he slashed, shot, and posted people up. Just an incredibly versatile scorer.

I think that Baylor playing in that "do it all" role was definitely closer to small forward archetype. That said, I don't put any value in positions, so I guess you can call Baylor "do it all forward", while LaRusso was a stretch four who could bang inside as well and was versatile defender.

[SickMother]

What can some of the old heads on here tell me about Chet "The Jet" Walker?

From before my time, but put up a pretty impressive season (at age 31 nonetheless) with the Bulls in 71-72 with a 21.8 PER | .583 TS% | 116 TS+ | 14.5 WS | .268 WS/48 split (& didn't even get an All Star nod for his effort!)

Over his last four seasons he came in at 20.0 PER | .565 TS% | 46.4 WS | .219 WS/48, pretty strong advanced numbers compared to lots of the more well known/highly regarded SFs outside of the Top 5 or so guys.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Best other small forward peak that I have seen is 1984 playoffs Bernard King. He does not bog down an offense like Dantley. I saw nothing wrong with his defense but I understand that King did not play defense on losing teams.

King had a major injury the next year and came back from that injury as a volume scorer with much less athleticism. Don't confuse older King with peak King.

Maybe 12 playoff games is too short for a peak. But for 12 playoff Games King was incredible. Add that Bernard King to the Iverson- Mutombo 76ers and they beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.

I've gone back and watched Dantley games to see if he actually held the ball a lot and bogged down the offense and during his peak in Utah at least, it seems to be a false narrative. He liked to use pump fakes and spin moves but didn't hold the ball any more than prime Dwyane Wade and was a decent, if not particularly creative, passer.

His defense wasn't impressive and his coach (Frank Layden) has ripped him publicly but when he went to Detroit, they nicknamed him "Teacher" for his professionalism and work habits and Chuck Daly praised his defense and locker room presence and I respect Daly a lot more than Layden (of course, Dantley could have matured too). He did work slower in Detroit, but it's a blast to watch him abuse Larry Bird in the playoffs.

I saw little of peak Dantley in Utah although a couple years ago I watched a old Utah Jazz vs Suns playoff video.

Dantley abusing Bird is fun but nobody can guard Dantley. Celtics mostly had McHale on Dantley. McHale probably guarded Dantley better than almost all players garded Dantley. I would like to see what Michael Cooper could do with Dantley. I should go back and watch two videos, 3 point shooting but less athletic late 1980s Cooper on Pistons Dantley and defenssive peak Cooper on offensive peak Jazz Dantley.

My impression of Dantley bogging down the Pistons comes from seeing plenty of Celtics vs Kelley Tripuka Pistons, Celtics vs Dantley Pistons and Celtics vs Aguirre Pistons. I think Dantley hurt the flow of the Pistons offense despite being a better scorer than Tripuka and Aguirre. When Aguire sat and Rodman played small forward I still liked that offense better than Dantley offense despite Rodman being a non-scorer.

[70sFan]

What can some of the old heads on here tell me about Chet "The Jet" Walker?

From before my time, but put up a pretty impressive season (at age 31 nonetheless) with the Bulls in 71-72 with a 21.8 PER | .583 TS% | 116 TS+ | 14.5 WS | .268 WS/48 split (& didn't even get an All Star nod for his effort!)

Over his last four seasons he came in at 20.0 PER | .565 TS% | 46.4 WS | .219 WS/48, pretty strong advanced numbers compared to lots of the more well known/highly regarded SFs outside of the Top 5 or so guys.

Excellent scorer, very crafty on midrange as well as decent defender. Didn't bring you much passing or on-ball creation for others though.

Still, very good second option. Quite comparable to Worthy in my opinion.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Best other small forward peak that I have seen is 1984 playoffs Bernard King. He does not bog down an offense like Dantley. I saw nothing wrong with his defense but I understand that King did not play defense on losing teams.

King had a major injury the next year and came back from that injury as a volume scorer with much less athleticism. Don't confuse older King with peak King.

Maybe 12 playoff games is too short for a peak. But for 12 playoff Games King was incredible. Add that Bernard King to the Iverson- Mutombo 76ers and they beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.

King was amazing scorer, but he didn't bring anything else to the table. He was a weak defender and he couldn't pass or rebound at decent level either.

I'm not even sure if he has any advantage as a scorer over Durant, Kawhi or Julius and his all-around game is significantly worse. He's not top 5 level, even at his absolute peak.

King averaged 6 rebounds and 3 assists durning his 12 game 1984 playoffs despite being an off the ball scorer who gerally shot within 2 seconds of touching the ball. I have to give Rorry Sparrow and the Knicks sone credit for their ability to pass the ball to King when he was in positions to score the ball. Him shooting rather than passing was the right play on that Knicks team because King and Cartwright down low and wide open Trent Tucker were the only guys on that team that you want shooting the ball. They had Truck Robinson but is was an old bad scoring version of Truck. They had Ray Williams as the guy who could in theory create his own shot but this was cocaine addict Ray Williams who's shooting was bad. This version of Ray williams was like a worse version of Allen Iverson and Ray Williams shot the Knicks out of some games. Ray williams was still taking shots as if he was the star that he had been prior to Cocaine but Ray Williams could not shoot.

Cocaine addiction does not have the same effect on all players. Ray williams buddy and fellow Cocaine addict Michael Ray Richardson played well while cocaine addicted perhaps because he played while high on cocaine instead of playing while craving cocaine.

Anyway 3 assists isn't bad in the role King was in. King got 6 rebounds per game average as a rookie and in the 1984 playoffs. Prior to the 1985 catastrophic injury that cost King his speed but not his shooting skills King averaged about 5 rebounds a game. King averaged 9.5 rebounds per game as a rookie. King was about the same size as Dr J, not big and like Dr J got rebounds with athleticism

Post injury King scoring 20 meaningless points per game on bad Bullets teams as a comparatively crippled version of Bernard King had less assists and less rebounds. I think Penbeast as a bullets fan would know post injury Bernard King. But I feel like you have post injury Bernard King as your model of Bernard King.

Actually even post injury Bernard King was getting 5 rebounds and 4 assists per 36 minutes but he was only playing 40 minutes per game. Kings's low in assists was 2.1 per game in the 83-84 regular season prior to his incredible 84 playoff run. During his 1984 playoff run King scored 35 points a game at TS% 62% in 40 minutes with 6.2 rebounds and 3 assists. I can't get time of possesion stats but he did not have the ball that much. Ray Williams and Rory Sparrow combined averaged 60 minutes a game and 15 assists. So they were playing a 2 point guard offense for 12, minutes a game. Rookie Darryl Walker also played 16 minutes per game and Basketball reference is listing him as a point guard though I consider Walker as a defensive stud combo guard non shooter who was a good passer for an off guard but maybe a little below average passer as a point guard. The point is King was not in the playmaking role, his job was to score and for a guy in that role I am OK with 3 assists.

[70sFan]

Best other small forward peak that I have seen is 1984 playoffs Bernard King. He does not bog down an offense like Dantley. I saw nothing wrong with his defense but I understand that King did not play defense on losing teams.

King had a major injury the next year and came back from that injury as a volume scorer with much less athleticism. Don't confuse older King with peak King.

Maybe 12 playoff games is too short for a peak. But for 12 playoff Games King was incredible. Add that Bernard King to the Iverson- Mutombo 76ers and they beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers.

King was amazing scorer, but he didn't bring anything else to the table. He was a weak defender and he couldn't pass or rebound at decent level either.

I'm not even sure if he has any advantage as a scorer over Durant, Kawhi or Julius and his all-around game is significantly worse. He's not top 5 level, even at his absolute peak.

King averaged 6 rebounds and 3 assists durning his 12 game 1984 playoffs despite being an off the ball scorer who gerally shot within 2 seconds of touching the ball. I have to give Rorry Sparrow and the Knicks sone credit for their ability to pass the ball to King when he was in positions to score the ball. Him shooting rather than passing was the right play on that Knicks team because King and Cartwright down low and wide open Trent Tucker were the only guys on that team that you want shooting the ball. They had Truck Robinson but is was an old bad scoring version of Truck. They had Ray Williams as the guy who could in theory create his own shot but this was cocaine addict Ray Williams who's shooting was bad. This version of Ray williams was like a worse version of Allen Iverson and Ray Williams shot the Knicks out of some games. Ray williams was still taking shots as if he was the star that he had been prior to Cocaine but Ray Williams could not shoot.

Cocaine addiction does not have the same effect on all players. Ray williams buddy and fellow Cocaine addict Michael Ray Richardson played well while cocaine addicted perhaps because he played while high on cocaine instead of playing while craving cocaine.

Anyway 3 assists isn't bad in the role King was in. King got 6 rebounds per game average as a rookie and in the 1984 playoffs. Prior to the 1985 catastrophic injury that cost King his speed but not his shooting skills King averaged about 5 rebounds a game. King averaged 9.5 rebounds per game as a rookie. King was about the same size as Dr J, not big and like Dr J got rebounds with athleticism

Post injury King scoring 20 meaningless points per game on bad Bullets teams as a comparatively crippled version of Bernard King had less assists and less rebounds. I think Penbeast as a bullets fan would know post injury Bernard King. But I feel like you have post injury Bernard King as your model of Bernard King.

Actually even post injury Bernard King was getting 5 rebounds and 4 assists per 36 minutes but he was only playing 40 minutes per game. Kings's low in assists was 2.1 per game in the 83-84 regular season prior to his incredible 84 playoff run. During his 1984 playoff run King scored 35 points a game at TS% 62% in 40 minutes with 6.2 rebounds and 3 assists. I can't get time of possesion stats but he did not have the ball that much. Ray Williams and Rory Sparrow combined averaged 60 minutes a game and 15 assists. So they were playing a 2 point guard offense for 12, minutes a game. Rookie Darryl Walker also played 16 minutes per game and Basketball reference is listing him as a point guard though I consider Walker as a defensive stud combo guard non shooter who was a good passer for an off guard but maybe a little below average passer as a point guard. The point is King was not in the playmaking role, his job was to score and for a guy in that role I am OK with 3 assists.

8.8 TRB% is bad for a forward, especially the one who played mostly on the inside. 3 assists per game is also weak for perimeter star, but more importantly - it's not about assists, it's about King missing a lot of easy reads in games I've watched.

[Sark]

No mention of 86 Dominique for the second question? Finished 2nd in MVP, averaged 30/8/3, and took his team to the second round, losing to the dynasty 86 Celtics

[SNPA]

Another thread where I must drop in to insist, Bird is a PF and James a PG.

Carry on.

[feyki]

Another thread where I must drop in to insist, Bird is a PF and James a PG.

Carry on.

Or Lebron is a Point Center and Bird was a shooter guard .

[jasonxxx102]

Went with Durant but do we consider TMac a SG?

If we put him in with SF he’s gotta be up there peak wise