Best non jordan shooting guard peak

[NbaAllDay]

Kobe was the best player in the league from 2006-2010. That's just revisionist history they got from Nick Wright and ESPN when people say he was never the best.

He didn't have the best season every year but he was the best player through out the mid to late 00s. It's like Lebron in the mid 2010s. He didn't always have the best seasons. Didn't always have the best numbers. Sometimes it was Steph and sometimes it was KD. Kawhi even. But more often than not, both at the time and in retrospect, Lebron was ultimately considered the best player. And why was Lebron considered the best player? Intangibles. He was a better leader, a more galvanizing force, and a more reliable performer for his team on the big stage then anyone else at the time. That doesn't mean KD and Steph were lacking in those areas but Lebron was better and that's what made him the best player. Same with Kobe in the 00s. Same with Jordan in the 90s. Magic & Bird in the 80s.

Lebron was the best player because even when someone was 'better' than him in the RS, he was often always the best in the playoffs. And his total body of work was rarely matched. It had nothing to with being a 'more galvanised force' how high are you sir.

Intangibles is what people turn to when they have nothing factual to provide. You could say Kone was 40% more 'intangible' and its completely baseless, yet happily use it to prop him up even when shown countless verifiable data showing Wade as at worst equal and potentially better.

Kobe also has far more examples of having a lack of intangibles (such as selfish play, issues with other star players) yet you sweep that under the rug.

Anyhow, as others have alluded this is a waste of time.

[Stalwart]

Lebron was the best player because even when someone was 'better' than him in the RS, he was often always the best in the playoffs. And his total body of work was rarely matched. It had nothing to with being a 'more galvanised force' how high are you sir.

The same can be said for Kobe.

In 2006 Kobe was the best individual player posting 35/5/4/2 and dragging an historically bad team to 45 wins in the West. This was the same year Kobe outscored Dirk and his entire team by himself. Put up 81 points and achieved several historical scoring feats that year. He then took the #1 seed to 7 games which included a 50 point performance and the iconic game winner from game 4. Kobe was the best that year. He proved it in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Kobe had another historic year in the 2007 RS while leading the playoffs in scoring. He was the MVP in 2008 and the FMVP in 09 and 10.

Intangibles is what people turn to when they have nothing factual to provide. You could say Kone was 40% more 'intangible' and its completely baseless, yet happily use it to prop him up even when shown countless verifiable data showing Wade as at worst equal and potentially better.

Kobe also has far more examples of having a lack of intangibles (such as selfish play, issues with other star players) yet you sweep that under the rug.

Anyhow, as others have alluded this is a waste of time.

I keep asking this question and no one responds. Are you suggesting intangibles don't exist? And if they do exist are you suggesting they are not an integral part of the game?

[NbaAllDay]

Lebron was the best player because even when someone was 'better' than him in the RS, he was often always the best in the playoffs. And his total body of work was rarely matched. It had nothing to with being a 'more galvanised force' how high are you sir.

The same can be said for Kobe.

In 2006 Kobe was the best individual player posting 35/5/4/2 and dragging an historically bad team to 45 wins in the West. This was the same year Kobe outscored Dirk and his entire team by himself. Put up 81 points and achieved several historical scoring feats that year. He then took the #1 seed to 7 games which included a 50 point performance and the iconic game winner from game 4. Kobe was the best that year. He proved it in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Kobe had another historic year in the 2007 RS while leading the playoffs in scoring. He was the MVP in 2008 and the FMVP in 09 and 10.

Intangibles is what people turn to when they have nothing factual to provide. You could say Kone was 40% more 'intangible' and its completely baseless, yet happily use it to prop him up even when shown countless verifiable data showing Wade as at worst equal and potentially better.

Kobe also has far more examples of having a lack of intangibles (such as selfish play, issues with other star players) yet you sweep that under the rug.

Anyhow, as others have alluded this is a waste of time.

I keep asking this question and no one responds. Are you suggesting intangibles don't exist? And if they do exist are you suggesting they are not an integral part of the game?

1. You are referencing box score stats and team accomplishments. Many here have broken it down with far more detail. Your decision to ignore that detail is your issue.

2. The same question can be said about you refusing to address the actual data and info presented.
No one is responding because it's not a question worth responding too.
You are making an assumption that Kobe has 'more' intangibles without any real verifiable proof and extrapolating from that to suggest Kobe is better. Because you cant really quantify this you are able to elevate lKobe through this attempted measure in order to prop him ahead of others on this list.

Do intangibles exist? Yes
Do they make a difference in this discussion? Hardly.
And why is that? The intangibles you sight arnt measurable & even if 'Leadership' was, it won't swing the needle on who was the best player in their prime between Wade and Kobe. The intangibles are a very very small part of the equation when none are dramatically far from the median.

[NBA4Lyfe]

2020 harden

[KobesScarf]

06 Kobe and it's not close

[DidUSaySometing]

Kobe was the best player in the league from 2006-2010. That's just revisionist history they got from Nick Wright and ESPN when people say he was never the best.

He didn't have the best season every year but he was the best player through out the mid to late 00s. It's like Lebron in the mid 2010s. He didn't always have the best seasons. Didn't always have the best numbers. Sometimes it was Steph and sometimes it was KD. Kawhi even. But more often than not, both at the time and in retrospect, Lebron was ultimately considered the best player. And why was Lebron considered the best player? Intangibles. He was a better leader, a more galvanizing force, and a more reliable performer for his team on the big stage then anyone else at the time. That doesn't mean KD and Steph were lacking in those areas but Lebron was better and that's what made him the best player. Same with Kobe in the 00s. Same with Jordan in the 90s. Magic & Bird in the 80s.

LeBron was definitely the best in 2009 and 2010. Kobe was never definitively the best player in the league

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

It is probably Kobe but George Gervin and David Thompson belong in the discussion.

[Stalwart]

Kobe was the best player in the league from 2006-2010. That's just revisionist history they got from Nick Wright and ESPN when people say he was never the best.

He didn't have the best season every year but he was the best player through out the mid to late 00s. It's like Lebron in the mid 2010s. He didn't always have the best seasons. Didn't always have the best numbers. Sometimes it was Steph and sometimes it was KD. Kawhi even. But more often than not, both at the time and in retrospect, Lebron was ultimately considered the best player. And why was Lebron considered the best player? Intangibles. He was a better leader, a more galvanizing force, and a more reliable performer for his team on the big stage then anyone else at the time. That doesn't mean KD and Steph were lacking in those areas but Lebron was better and that's what made him the best player. Same with Kobe in the 00s. Same with Jordan in the 90s. Magic & Bird in the 80s.

LeBron was definitely the best in 2009 and 2010. Kobe was never definitively the best player in the league

”I’ve been quoted millions of times saying Kobe is the best player in our league for the last five years,” James said.

You were saying?

[LukaTheGOAT]

The problem with “intangibles” is that it’s the only thing that people use to elevate him.

“Mamba mentality” is so overrated. He worked really hard, harder than other players even, but is that really worth anything when discussing peak performance?

The legend of Kobe is so much greater than the reality was in a pure basketball sense.

This is modern day myth making. Kobe was as good as advertised. His peak numbers might have been a half a tick below fellow top 10 all time players in terms of production and efficiency but it's the intangibles that close the gap. And the evidence for those intangibles is the historically great team success he was able to produce through out his career.

You guys want to ignore this element of reality and I don't know why. Actually I do know why but that's a whole different discussion. The point is you guys are insisting on ignoring a part of the game that we all know exists simply because there is no formula to capture and represent it.

Why do you think we would want to ignore this?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Well hopefully this one doesn't get derailed with bias, such as Kobe being easily the best and Wade being worse than Iverson.

Anyway I have Wade 1st but i think picking Kobe, West and maybe even Tmac or Harden is within reason.

I consider peak more or less the average level of their best 2-3 years, they don't have to necessarily be consecutive though.

Why I have Wade over Kobe, I just think it's sort of telling that Wade's peak overlapped more or less with Kobe's and he usually fared better in RAPM but also box score stuff.

2006: Wade- 6.1, Kobe- 4.8
2009: Wade- 6.4, Kobe- 6.1
2010: Wade- 8.4, Kobe- 5.6

Wade's health failed in 07 and 08, so i don't really count those years unless we start talking entire prime, which we are not. Even so looking at their averages from 06-10.

Wade 2006-2010: 27.4/5/7/2/1 3.7 tov 27.6 PER 57 ts% 8.1 BPM
Postseason: 28.7/5.6/5.8 4.2 tov 26 PER 58.4 ts% 8.5 BPM

Kobe 2006-2010: 29.8/5.6/5/1.6/.04 3.1 tov 25 PER 56.5 ts% 5.9 BPM
Postseason: 29.8/5.7/5.4 3.3 tov 24.9 PER 57 ts% 7.2 BPM

Even putting all the numbers aside, Wade was a clear better defender during that time when you consider Kobe's lack of defense in 06 and 07. I don't know. Picking Kobe is reasonable I just think there's less evidence in his favor. Also i think in times of desperation, Kobe tends to overshoot even when he's not making them. I think 2010 game 7 against the Celtics was an ugly example of that. I know he grabbed a lot of rebounds, but i don't know how you only wind up with 2 assists in a game like that, and it's not like he wasn't playing with talent.

I suspect maybe Lukathegoat might throw out his RAPTOR and LEBRON numbers lol.

I think West is too hard to compare given how far apart those eras are. I'll probably just consider him roughly equal with Kobe. It's very possible he's as good as Wade or even better, i just don't know. I'm not confident in it, I think all these guys would do great today, but I think Wade's slashing and athleticism would be a nightmare for teams to defend today with the amount of space he'd potentially be working with too. Wade's lack of 3 wouldn't concern me much, Giannis has done great without it and a difference being you can't wall off the paint from Wade, it just won't work and never has.

I talked some about Harden vs those guys recently, but i just think his consistency in the postseason is more suspect and he doesn't have that sustained type of playoff runs like Kobe and Wade do.

Because why not, lol

Wade certainly seems to have the bigger impact footprint between the two in terms of metrics that have full-season data for their peaks.

Wade and Kpbe's peaks in the following metrics

PIPM-7.24
RAPTOR-9.39
BPM-10.6
TWPR-70.68
Scaled APM/g-7.3

Kobe

PIPM-4.83
RAPTOR-7.20
BPM-7.6
TWPR-54.79
Scaled APM/g-5.8

Darko has something that goes back to 1980 in terms of attempting to evaluate projected peak performance going forward (looks at all of a player's past games and takes the into account)...and Wade looks great, among the very greatest peaks dating back to at least 1980. We don't have Kobe's placement, but he is notably absent here.

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[Stalwart]

Why do you think we would want to ignore this?

Several reasons. First and foremost many of you seem to simply not understand what they are or how to factor them into your analysis because they don't have a formula to attach numbers to it. You can only analyze parts of the game that can be captured in numbers otherwise you literally pretend they don't exist.

You guys are all like "huh...leadership? Pressure management? Adaptibility and portability? Playstyle? Locker room presence?"



Also, intangibles are best measured by how it effects your teammates, the game, and your ability to to secure a victory. So in some respects intangibles are best measured by...team success. Well, the PC board seems to have all but written off team success completely in terms of career value and ranking. This limited approach where we ignore clear aspects of the game, like outcomes, has allowed for much more subjectivity within these rankings. By ignoring intangibles(when convenient btw) and the value it brings to team success has allowed many self proclaimed experts to ignore team success altogether. This allows for guys like KG to swoop into the top 10. Or Lebron into the GOAT discussion. Or Kobe to fall out of the top 12. Or Steph to be criminally underrated. Ect.

[70sFan]

How can you prove that Kobe is a better leader or has better intangibles than Garnett or James?

[Stalwart]

How can you prove that Kobe is a better leader or has better intangibles than Garnett or James?

Well I'm not sure what you mean by prove as most of what we discuss are perspectives and not proven facts either way. But what you do is establish what particular intangibles each player has and then compare and contrast.

[70sFan]

How can you prove that Kobe is a better leader or has better intangibles than Garnett or James?

Well I'm not sure what you mean by prove as most of what we discuss are perspectives and not proven facts either way. But what you do is establish what particular intangibles each player has and then compare and contrast.

Can you do such a thing as an example?

[DidUSaySometing]

Kobe was the best player in the league from 2006-2010. That's just revisionist history they got from Nick Wright and ESPN when people say he was never the best.

He didn't have the best season every year but he was the best player through out the mid to late 00s. It's like Lebron in the mid 2010s. He didn't always have the best seasons. Didn't always have the best numbers. Sometimes it was Steph and sometimes it was KD. Kawhi even. But more often than not, both at the time and in retrospect, Lebron was ultimately considered the best player. And why was Lebron considered the best player? Intangibles. He was a better leader, a more galvanizing force, and a more reliable performer for his team on the big stage then anyone else at the time. That doesn't mean KD and Steph were lacking in those areas but Lebron was better and that's what made him the best player. Same with Kobe in the 00s. Same with Jordan in the 90s. Magic & Bird in the 80s.

LeBron was definitely the best in 2009 and 2010. Kobe was never definitively the best player in the league

”I’ve been quoted millions of times saying Kobe is the best player in our league for the last five years,” James said.

You were saying?

He's wrong. 2006 was his best season and even that's arguable