Where does Kevin Johnson rank among PGs alltime

[70sFan]

Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

Suns weren't less talented during KJ best years. They were quite stacked both in terms of depth and top talent. What makes Nash teams more talented?

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

Nash didn't have Amare or Johnson in 2006 and it didn't change anything. As to the rest, you should decide whether 1980s players are underrated, or 2000s players are better.

[Stalwart]

Yeah Im not sure you can say Nash had better teammates than KJ. That early 90s Suns teams had some really good players. Hornacek, Chambers, Majerle, McDaniel, Eddie Johnson. I think that's on par with Nash's teams.

[migya]

Suns weren't less talented during KJ best years. They were quite stacked both in terms of depth and top talent. What makes Nash teams more talented?

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

Nash didn't have Amare or Johnson in 2006 and it didn't change anything. As to the rest, you should decide whether 1980s players are underrated, or 2000s players are better.

Defense and two way players are very important. In this case Marion is better than anyone KJ had and Amare as well, as he played some defense Chambers didn't.

Depends what a person values; scoring numbers or all-around efficiency.

[70sFan]

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

Nash didn't have Amare or Johnson in 2006 and it didn't change anything. As to the rest, you should decide whether 1980s players are underrated, or 2000s players are better.

Defense and two way players are very important. In this case Marion is better than anyone KJ had and Amare as well, as he played some defense Chambers didn't.

Depends what a person values; scoring numbers or all-around efficiency.

You say that defense matters, then on another sentence you mention Amare. Amare was one of the worst starting centers defensively in the whole league.

[migya]

Nash didn't have Amare or Johnson in 2006 and it didn't change anything. As to the rest, you should decide whether 1980s players are underrated, or 2000s players are better.

Defense and two way players are very important. In this case Marion is better than anyone KJ had and Amare as well, as he played some defense Chambers didn't.

Depends what a person values; scoring numbers or all-around efficiency.

You say that defense matters, then on another sentence you mention Amare. Amare was one of the worst starting centers defensively in the whole league.

Notice I said compared to Chambers.

[70sFan]

Defense and two way players are very important. In this case Marion is better than anyone KJ had and Amare as well, as he played some defense Chambers didn't.

Depends what a person values; scoring numbers or all-around efficiency.

You say that defense matters, then on another sentence you mention Amare. Amare was one of the worst starting centers defensively in the whole league.

Notice I said compared to Chambers.

Chambers didn't play at center though. Chambers wasn't a particulary good defender, but I'd definitely take him over Stoudemire.

[G35]

Yes it is. KJ took less talented teams to as good success as Nash on the Suns. KJ did that as the leading scorer and distributor too.

Suns weren't less talented during KJ best years. They were quite stacked both in terms of depth and top talent. What makes Nash teams more talented?

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

I agree that Marion is hugely underrated for those Suns teams. He was basically like Draymond but with better offense. They asked him to guard the bigger PF's in order to play Amare at center.

Amare should not be playing center on defense. He has zero defensive instincts. But MDA knew that Amare at center created huge matchup problems because there were no centers that could matchup with Amare's quickness in the pick and roll and his ability to shoot the mid-range.

This is were I have an issue with Nash is that MDA gift wrapped Nash an offense built for his playmaking. But it was not great defensively. Not having a defensive center compromised the Suns on defense but it enabled Nash to have a plethora of options on offense. Basically, Nash had an offensive option at every position:

PG - Nash
SG - Bell, House, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson
SF - Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw
PF - Shawn Marion
C - Amare Stoudemire

That is a great offensive team...not so much on defense. That would be like the Utah Jazz of the 90's putting Karl Malone at center and taking out Mark Eaton and Greg Ostertag. What you are consciously doing is choosing offense over defense. But what it does is skew people's opinions because they only think about offense. Similar to how Lebron was going for the scoring title over the sake of defense, it skews the narrative......

[migya]

Suns weren't less talented during KJ best years. They were quite stacked both in terms of depth and top talent. What makes Nash teams more talented?

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

I agree that Marion is hugely underrated for those Suns teams. He was basically like Draymond but with better offense. They asked him to guard the bigger PF's in order to play Amare at center.

Amare should not be playing center on defense. He has zero defensive instincts. But MDA knew that Amare at center created huge matchup problems because there were no centers that could matchup with Amare's quickness in the pick and roll and his ability to shoot the mid-range.

This is were I have an issue with Nash is that MDA gift wrapped Nash an offense built for his playmaking. But it was not great defensively. Not having a defensive center compromised the Suns on defense but it enabled Nash to have a plethora of options on offense. Basically, Nash had an offensive option at every position:

PG - Nash
SG - Bell, House, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson
SF - Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw
PF - Shawn Marion
C - Amare Stoudemire

That is a great offensive team...not so much on defense. That would be like the Utah Jazz of the 90's putting Karl Malone at center and taking out Mark Eaton and Greg Ostertag. What you are consciously doing is choosing offense over defense. But what it does is skew people's opinions because they only think about offense. Similar to how Lebron was going for the scoring title over the sake of defense, it skews the narrative......

Their defense wasn't great but Marion, Joe Johnson, Bell and a couple of others were very good defensive players. KJ had less defense on his teams, that's my point.

[70sFan]

Suns weren't less talented during KJ best years. They were quite stacked both in terms of depth and top talent. What makes Nash teams more talented?

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

I agree that Marion is hugely underrated for those Suns teams. He was basically like Draymond but with better offense. They asked him to guard the bigger PF's in order to play Amare at center.

Amare should not be playing center on defense. He has zero defensive instincts. But MDA knew that Amare at center created huge matchup problems because there were no centers that could matchup with Amare's quickness in the pick and roll and his ability to shoot the mid-range.

This is were I have an issue with Nash is that MDA gift wrapped Nash an offense built for his playmaking. But it was not great defensively. Not having a defensive center compromised the Suns on defense but it enabled Nash to have a plethora of options on offense. Basically, Nash had an offensive option at every position:

PG - Nash
SG - Bell, House, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson
SF - Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw
PF - Shawn Marion
C - Amare Stoudemire

That is a great offensive team...not so much on defense. That would be like the Utah Jazz of the 90's putting Karl Malone at center and taking out Mark Eaton and Greg Ostertag. What you are consciously doing is choosing offense over defense. But what it does is skew people's opinions because they only think about offense. Similar to how Lebron was going for the scoring title over the sake of defense, it skews the narrative......

Now let's take a look at 2006 Suns starting 5:

PG: Steve Nash
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Shawn Marion
PF: Boris Diaw
C: Kurt Thomas

They didn't have Johnson, or Amare. They played typical center in this lineup and their offense didn't miss a beat.

What about 2010 when they played Robin Lopez next to Amare? No, Nash wasn't manufactured by the system, he was legit all-time great offensive player who peaked on a level that KJ never reached.

[HeartBreakKid]

It's really bizarre how people pretend Nash's 2005 roster were his teammates his entire career. Nash has lead elite offenses before and after D'Antoni, and has done so with crappy rosters and stacked rosters.

I dont get how people post on this message board for this long and somehow do not observe that.

The 90s Suns were incredibly talented, I can't believe we're even discussing this. Why don't some posters just admit they know little about the team before Charles Barkley joined them?

[migya]

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

I agree that Marion is hugely underrated for those Suns teams. He was basically like Draymond but with better offense. They asked him to guard the bigger PF's in order to play Amare at center.

Amare should not be playing center on defense. He has zero defensive instincts. But MDA knew that Amare at center created huge matchup problems because there were no centers that could matchup with Amare's quickness in the pick and roll and his ability to shoot the mid-range.

This is were I have an issue with Nash is that MDA gift wrapped Nash an offense built for his playmaking. But it was not great defensively. Not having a defensive center compromised the Suns on defense but it enabled Nash to have a plethora of options on offense. Basically, Nash had an offensive option at every position:

PG - Nash
SG - Bell, House, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson
SF - Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw
PF - Shawn Marion
C - Amare Stoudemire

That is a great offensive team...not so much on defense. That would be like the Utah Jazz of the 90's putting Karl Malone at center and taking out Mark Eaton and Greg Ostertag. What you are consciously doing is choosing offense over defense. But what it does is skew people's opinions because they only think about offense. Similar to how Lebron was going for the scoring title over the sake of defense, it skews the narrative......

Now let's take a look at 2006 Suns starting 5:

PG: Steve Nash
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Shawn Marion
PF: Boris Diaw
C: Kurt Thomas

They didn't have Johnson, or Amare. They played typical center in this lineup and their offense didn't miss a beat.

What about 2010 when they played Robin Lopez next to Amare? No, Nash wasn't manufactured by the system, he was legit all-time great offensive player who peaked on a level that KJ never reached.

The top players on Nash's 2006 team:

Shawn Marion - 40.3mins, 52.5fg%, 1.2 3P, 33.1% 3P, 11.8reb, 1.8stl, 2.0blk, 21.8pts
Raja Bell - 37.5mins, 2.5 3P, 44.2% 3P, 14.7pts
Boris Diaw - 35.5mins 52.6fg%, 6.9reb, 6.2ast, 13.3pts
Steve Nash - 35.4mins, 10.5ast, 0.8stl, 18.8pts
Leandro Barbosa - 27.9mins, 1.5 3P, 44.4% 3P, 13.1pts
Kurt Thomas - 26.6mins, 7.8reb, 8.6pts
Tim Thomas - 24.4mins, 1.7 3P, 42.9% 3P, 11pts
James Jones - 23.6mins, 1.5 3P, 38.6% 3P, 9.3pts
Eddie House - 17.5mins, 1.5 3P, 38.9% 3P, 9.8pts


That's some nice modern day"spacing" for you modern day spacing lovers.


The top players on KJ's 89 (Kj 23 years of age) season:

Kevin Johnson - 39.2mins, 50.5fg%, 0.0 3P, 9.1% 3P, 12.2ast, 1.7stl, 20.4pts
Tom Chambers - 37.1mins, 47.1fg%, 0.3 3P, 32.6% 3P, 8.4reb, 25.7pts
Jeff Hornacek - 31.9mins, 0.3 3P, 33.3% 3P, 13.5pts
Eddie Johnson - 29.2mins, 1.0 3P, 41.3% 3P, 21.5pts
Armen Gilliam - 28.6mins, 0.0 3P, 15.9pts
Dan Majerle - 25.1mins, 0.5 3P, 32.9% 3P, 8.6pts
Mark West - 24.6mins, 6.7reb, 7.2pts
Tyrone Corbin - 21.5mins, 0.0 3P, 8.2pts


Chambers, the second best player to KJ, wasn't as good as Marion, only scoring more and at far less efficiency, far wise rebounder and moreso defender. Hornacek scored less than Bell, with far less three point shooting and worse defender. Eddie Johnson scored well and was a great shooter but was awful at everything else especially defense. Diaw was a much better all-around player and defender. Barbosa, Tim Thomas, James Jones and Eddie House were all great shooters at volume.

Even without Amare Nash had a better team, as Amare and it's a large gap.

KJ, even so young, lead the team to 55 wins to Nash's 54.

[70sFan]

I agree that Marion is hugely underrated for those Suns teams. He was basically like Draymond but with better offense. They asked him to guard the bigger PF's in order to play Amare at center.

Amare should not be playing center on defense. He has zero defensive instincts. But MDA knew that Amare at center created huge matchup problems because there were no centers that could matchup with Amare's quickness in the pick and roll and his ability to shoot the mid-range.

This is were I have an issue with Nash is that MDA gift wrapped Nash an offense built for his playmaking. But it was not great defensively. Not having a defensive center compromised the Suns on defense but it enabled Nash to have a plethora of options on offense. Basically, Nash had an offensive option at every position:

PG - Nash
SG - Bell, House, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson
SF - Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw
PF - Shawn Marion
C - Amare Stoudemire

That is a great offensive team...not so much on defense. That would be like the Utah Jazz of the 90's putting Karl Malone at center and taking out Mark Eaton and Greg Ostertag. What you are consciously doing is choosing offense over defense. But what it does is skew people's opinions because they only think about offense. Similar to how Lebron was going for the scoring title over the sake of defense, it skews the narrative......

Now let's take a look at 2006 Suns starting 5:

PG: Steve Nash
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Shawn Marion
PF: Boris Diaw
C: Kurt Thomas

They didn't have Johnson, or Amare. They played typical center in this lineup and their offense didn't miss a beat.

What about 2010 when they played Robin Lopez next to Amare? No, Nash wasn't manufactured by the system, he was legit all-time great offensive player who peaked on a level that KJ never reached.

The top players on Nash's 2006 team:

Shawn Marion - 40.3mins, 52.5fg%, 1.2 3P, 33.1% 3P, 11.8reb, 1.8stl, 2.0blk, 21.8pts
Raja Bell - 37.5mins, 2.5 3P, 44.2% 3P, 14.7pts
Boris Diaw - 35.5mins 52.6fg%, 6.9reb, 6.2ast, 13.3pts
Steve Nash - 35.4mins, 10.5ast, 0.8stl, 18.8pts
Leandro Barbosa - 27.9mins, 1.5 3P, 44.4% 3P, 13.1pts
Kurt Thomas - 26.6mins, 7.8reb, 8.6pts
Tim Thomas - 24.4mins, 1.7 3P, 42.9% 3P, 11pts
James Jones - 23.6mins, 1.5 3P, 38.6% 3P, 9.3pts
Eddie House - 17.5mins, 1.5 3P, 38.9% 3P, 9.8pts


That's some nice modern day"spacing" for you modern day spacing lovers.


The top players on KJ's 89 (Kj 23 years of age) season:

Kevin Johnson - 39.2mins, 50.5fg%, 0.0 3P, 9.1% 3P, 12.2ast, 1.7stl, 20.4pts
Tom Chambers - 37.1mins, 47.1fg%, 0.3 3P, 32.6% 3P, 8.4reb, 25.7pts
Jeff Hornacek - 31.9mins, 0.3 3P, 33.3% 3P, 13.5pts
Eddie Johnson - 29.2mins, 1.0 3P, 41.3% 3P, 21.5pts
Armen Gilliam - 28.6mins, 0.0 3P, 15.9pts
Dan Majerle - 25.1mins, 0.5 3P, 32.9% 3P, 8.6pts
Mark West - 24.6mins, 6.7reb, 7.2pts
Tyrone Corbin - 21.5mins, 0.0 3P, 8.2pts


Chambers, the second best player to KJ, wasn't as good as Marion, only scoring more and at far less efficiency, far wise rebounder and moreso defender. Hornacek scored less than Bell, with far less three point shooting and worse defender. Eddie Johnson scored well and was a great shooter but was awful at everything else especially defense. Diaw was a much better all-around player and defender. Barbosa, Tim Thomas, James Jones and Eddie House were all great shooters at volume.

Even without Amare Nash had a better team, as Amare and it's a large gap.

KJ, even so young, lead the team to 55 wins to Nash's 54.

How is that possible that the team full of awful defenders were actually 5th best in the league defensively?

Why do you care about spacing if 1990s is the golden era for basketball?

You picked 1989 Suns specially because Chambers had a down year and because Hornacek was starting to reach his prime. Take a look at 1990 team.

[G35]

Marion on his own makes Nash's teams better. He was by far the best defender and two way player on both squads. Amare was better than Chambers and more odd a matchup problem. Joe Johnson was also a better two way platter than anyone KJ had in the early 90s especially, when KJ didn't have Barkley. Raja Bell and Diaw were also far better two way players than anyone KJ had besides 92 onwards Majerle, which was until 95.

I agree that Marion is hugely underrated for those Suns teams. He was basically like Draymond but with better offense. They asked him to guard the bigger PF's in order to play Amare at center.

Amare should not be playing center on defense. He has zero defensive instincts. But MDA knew that Amare at center created huge matchup problems because there were no centers that could matchup with Amare's quickness in the pick and roll and his ability to shoot the mid-range.

This is were I have an issue with Nash is that MDA gift wrapped Nash an offense built for his playmaking. But it was not great defensively. Not having a defensive center compromised the Suns on defense but it enabled Nash to have a plethora of options on offense. Basically, Nash had an offensive option at every position:

PG - Nash
SG - Bell, House, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson
SF - Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw
PF - Shawn Marion
C - Amare Stoudemire

That is a great offensive team...not so much on defense. That would be like the Utah Jazz of the 90's putting Karl Malone at center and taking out Mark Eaton and Greg Ostertag. What you are consciously doing is choosing offense over defense. But what it does is skew people's opinions because they only think about offense. Similar to how Lebron was going for the scoring title over the sake of defense, it skews the narrative......

Their defense wasn't great but Marion, Joe Johnson, Bell and a couple of others were very good defensive players. KJ had less defense on his teams, that's my point.

Yep, I agree, Marion was good, Bell was a good perimeter defender. But yeah the KJ/Barkley Suns just needed a defensive big at center and they would have been much better. A Brook Lopez type would have made a huge difference. Mark West did not bring enough.

Now let's take a look at 2006 Suns starting 5:

PG: Steve Nash
SG: Raja Bell
SF: Shawn Marion
PF: Boris Diaw
C: Kurt Thomas

They didn't have Johnson, or Amare. They played typical center in this lineup and their offense didn't miss a beat.

What about 2010 when they played Robin Lopez next to Amare? No, Nash wasn't manufactured by the system, he was legit all-time great offensive player who peaked on a level that KJ never reached.

You are not directly refuting what I am saying about how those Suns were constructed and the starting lineup that was fielded. They were clearly offensive-centric. That is how MDA builds his teams.

That isn't to say that Nash was not masterful in how he used the tools given to him. Nash ran one of the best offenses I ever got to see. But that does not change that Nash was given more tools and having an Amare at center is way different that having a Rudy Gobert or Andre Drummond at center.

What you are pointing out also supports my point and others that Shawn Marion should be given more credit for how well those teams did on defense. Amare was out for the entire season and the defense improved the following year. What does that tell you.....

[migya]

I agree that Marion is hugely underrated for those Suns teams. He was basically like Draymond but with better offense. They asked him to guard the bigger PF's in order to play Amare at center.

Amare should not be playing center on defense. He has zero defensive instincts. But MDA knew that Amare at center created huge matchup problems because there were no centers that could matchup with Amare's quickness in the pick and roll and his ability to shoot the mid-range.

This is were I have an issue with Nash is that MDA gift wrapped Nash an offense built for his playmaking. But it was not great defensively. Not having a defensive center compromised the Suns on defense but it enabled Nash to have a plethora of options on offense. Basically, Nash had an offensive option at every position:

PG - Nash
SG - Bell, House, Joe Johnson, Quentin Richardson
SF - Joe Johnson, Boris Diaw
PF - Shawn Marion
C - Amare Stoudemire

That is a great offensive team...not so much on defense. That would be like the Utah Jazz of the 90's putting Karl Malone at center and taking out Mark Eaton and Greg Ostertag. What you are consciously doing is choosing offense over defense. But what it does is skew people's opinions because they only think about offense. Similar to how Lebron was going for the scoring title over the sake of defense, it skews the narrative......

Their defense wasn't great but Marion, Joe Johnson, Bell and a couple of others were very good defensive players. KJ had less defense on his teams, that's my point.

Yep, I agree, Marion was good, Bell was a good perimeter defender. But yeah the KJ/Barkley Suns just needed a defensive big at center and they would have been much better. A Brook Lopez type would have made a huge difference. Mark West did not bring enough.

Phoenix had some players that for their roles quite well but they just weren't good enough to say they were great at what they did. Mark West was certainly a good defender but fairly small for a Center and very limited offensively. Those years or was easy to see how valuable a very good PG was. Talent just want used properly without a good PG. Replace Hersey Hawkins in Philly in the late 80s and early 90s with say Mark Price, who wasn't as good as KJ, and they would've been quite better. Hawkins was a good scorer but a floor general makes things work better.

KJ, Tim Hardaway also, is so forgotten and undervalued. He was a superstar that carried his team and it was injuries that stopped him from being a real star throughout the whole 90s and into the 2000s. I think with Marion and young Amare, the Suns would've been as good with KJ as they were with Nash, but they would've run and gunned even better. 1993 Phoenix was a look at the highest level of run and gun. They scored a ton and won 62 games with little defense. Imagine prime Marion replacing Ceballos or Dumas, both who performed very well that season at SF. That Phoenix team rampages that season and probably wins 70. They certainly beat Chicago who barely best then anyway. That better defense from one player would make them that much better.

[70sFan]

Still waiting for answer how such a horrible defensive team managed to be excellent defensively during KJ best years, even taking into account that KJ wasn't good defender himself.

[penbeast0]

Not excellent, but very solid defensively, ranging from 6th to 9th in KJ's 4 year healthy peak from 89-92. It is surprising that they were that good, with Tom Chambers and KJ as their stars (though both were very athletic) and "Slow" Eddie Johnson as their 6th man. West was very good, as was Andrew Lang behind him. Majerle and Hornacek is an excellent pair of defensive wings when Thunder Dan was young and healthy. Xavier McDaniel and Tim Perry also played a year and both had good defensive reps as well. You have to give those guys credit but also Cotton Fitzimmons who seemed to have them playing team defense to take advantage of their talent.