Dutchball97 wrote:Stalwart wrote:If were going by career resume and overall dominance relative to era then Kobe would fall between 6 and 10. There is no case for him to be outside of the top 10. However, there is also no case to push him into the top 5.
If you are going by overall skillset and ability across era then he easily moves into the top 5. After you remove the pre-80s guys you can argue Kobe probably into the Top 3. However, I personally don't recommend doing rankings this way. It's too subjective and inconsistent.
Under no scenario does Dr. J, Oscar, or KG move in front of him. That is unless you ignore team success altogether.
KG and Oscar are very similar cases. Both were pretty clearly better than Kobe in the regular season but like you said they don't have a lot of post-season success. However, they did generally do well whenever they did make it there. Especially Oscar pretty much always played well in the play-offs. I personally don't have them ahead of Kobe but we're talking about players who could be argued over Kobe one way or another. KG has a higher peak (find me non-Laker fans who would take any Kobe season over KG's 04) and better longevity, the only thing he lacks is relative post-season success. Oscar also has a higher peak and his longevity is close enough that when you look at their respective eras that Oscar is actually more impressive for sticking around so long in the 60s/70s. But if you put Kobe on the 00s Timberwolves or the Royals of the 60s would he do any better?
For Dr J it depends how highly you rate the ABA, he's another guy I personally wouldn't put ahead of Kobe but he also has comparable longevity than Kobe, was better at his peak (again, if you rate the ABA) and has plenty of post-season success in his own right.
But then you also have to consider I argued Kobe ahead of Hakeem, Bird and Magic based on 1 attribute Kobe has over them despite losing out in pretty much every other category. You can't have it both ways that you can push Kobe ahead if he has one slight advantage but refuse to do the same for the players just below him.
Well I think it is debatable whether or not KG and Oscar peaked higher than Kobe. I think you can make a case for Kobe as well. However, I would argue that the difference between them is marginal either way. So looking at their peaks alone is not going to give us much of a clear picture. They have all had similar individual success when you consider accolades and accomplishments. Again, the difference is marginal. The only clear distinction between the 3 is their level of team success. And the difference is not small. Kobe won FIVE championships including SEVEN trips to the finals...in the 2000s...in the West. This also includes leading his own team to 3 straight finals and back to back championships. Whatever marginal advantages one may argue for KG and Oscar in terms of peak or individual dominance cannot cover this ocean sized gap in their team success.
I am very high on Dr. J and have him at 12 right behind Hakeem. But as 70sfan pointed out, even if you consider his ABA success he still only has almost as much success as Kobe. Considering at least half of Dr. J's success came in a secondary league while still not achieving as much put's Kobe ahead for me.
I do believe KG in particular can argue that he would have had more team success with better teams through out his career. The few times he was given a good team and put in position to contend he did. When given a solid team in 04 he went to the WCF. When put on a championship level team with the Celtics, even as a slightly declined player, he still consistently showed strong intangibles, leadership, and ability. So, one could argue KG could approximate Kobe's team success if given better teams. Howowever, we don't
know that. KG could also flame out, choke, or otherwise come up short if given better teams. Kobe, to his good fortune, was given those teams and thus able to prove himself at the highest levels consistently through out his career.
When it comes to Oscar and Dr. J I think they were given their opportunities. Dr. J had a championship level team, including superteams, for 5 or 6 straight seasons. Oscar played next to Kareem and Dandridge for 4 years. That's why I said the only way to put those guys over Kobe is if you ignore team success altogether. Which I don't think is fair nor credible.
