Which player of these two would do the best defensively on Prime MJ: Sidney Moncrief or Michael Cooper?

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:58 am

Which player would do the best defensively on Prime MJ: Sidney Moncrief or Michael Cooper?

falcolombardi · Post #2 » by **falcolombardi** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:35 am

prime jordan played against both of them so is not "who would" but "who did" guard him better

we would need to look into boxscores and available footage

mdonnelly1989 · Post #3 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:26 am

falcolombardi wrote:prime jordan played against both of them so is not "who would" but "who did" guard him better

we would need to look into boxscores and available footage

Lmfao

Good point. Yeah, I'm curios because I always here these guys mentioned as two of the tops defensive Wings of all time.

If you would look it up please haha

mdonnelly1989 · Post #4 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:30 am

falcolombardi wrote:prime jordan played against both of them so is not "who would" but "who did" guard him better

we would need to look into boxscores and available footage

Forget about it, he averaged exactly 31 points on both, although against Moncrief 52% FG, and Cooper 47%.

I take those with a grain of salt though, because stopping MJ was about a team game. I'm not sure how well the supporting cast was...

falcolombardi · Post #5 » by **falcolombardi** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:35 am

mdonnelly1989 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:prime jordan played against both of them so is not "who would" but "who did" guard him better

we would need to look into boxscores and available footage

Forget about it, he averaged exactly 31 points on both, although against Moncrief 52% FG, and Cooper 47%.

I take those with a grain of salt though, because stopping MJ was about a team game. I'm not sure how well the supporting cast was...

i akso wouldnt take the fg% at face value either

is technically possible that cooper fouled more which would mean lower fg% without reducing efficiency, while moncrief allowed a high fg% but without giving free throws

70sFan · Post #6 » by **70sFan** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:44 am

From what I've seen, Cooper was better Jordan defender. You need length to bother Jordan and although Squid had very long arms, he was a bit undersized next to Jordan. Cooper had enough quickness to stay in front of Jordan as well.

It's just a short video so don't use it as an argument, but it shows nicely how tough it was for MJ to create easy points against Coop:

Watch on YouTube

KobesScarf · Post #7 » by **KobesScarf** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:12 pm

Cooper is very overrated

70sFan · Post #8 » by **70sFan** » Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:03 pm

KobesScarf wrote:Cooper is very overrated

He was overrated in a way that he won DPOY, but I don't find him overrated compared to other great defensove guards. Why do you think he was overrated?

KobesScarf · Post #9 » by **KobesScarf** » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:18 pm

70sFan wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Cooper is very overrated

He was overrated in a way that he won DPOY, but I don't find him overrated compared to other great defensove guards. Why do you think he was overrated?

I just feel like he gets extra credit for being the best defender on a team that didn't care about defense.

He wasn't close to the same level as Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Dennis Johnson and several others

70sFan · Post #10 » by **70sFan** » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:30 pm

KobesScarf wrote:
70sFan wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Cooper is very overrated

He was overrated in a way that he won DPOY, but I don't find him overrated compared to other great defensove guards. Why do you think he was overrated?
I just feel like he gets extra credit for being the best defender on a team that didn't care about defense.

He wasn't close to the same level as Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Dennis Johnson and several others

Lakers were quite good for a team who didn't care about defense.

I'd definitely put him ahead of Robertson. The rest are arguable.

Post #11 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:52 pm

KobesScarf wrote:
70sFan wrote:
KobesScarf wrote:Cooper is very overrated

He was overrated in a way that he won DPOY, but I don't find him overrated compared to other great defensove guards. Why do you think he was overrated?
I just feel like he gets extra credit for being the best defender on a team that didn't care about defense.

He wasn't close to the same level as Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Dennis Johnson and several others

Hmm.

So first: I do think the way Cooper got championed as DPOY to be very hard to justify. It's not just that he's not a big, it's that it felt like "This Laker hasn't gotten love for doing his thing, so he should!"

With that said, the idea that you would think it obvious that Cooper wasn't as good as Robertson is odd to me. Cooper is an ultra-long man defender whose play allowed Magic to better freelance. Robertson was primarily known for gambling for steals on teams who gave up too many easy shots.

I'm personally very skeptical of Robertson's impact, but even if you aren't, a key part of his reputation involves an area that the Lakers specifically chose not to use Cooper for...so how are you comparing them? Are you knocking Cooper for not doing something he wasn't supposed to you? or, Are you specifically ignoring that area and saying that Robertson as a man defender was way better than Cooper?

falcolombardi · Post #12 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:54 pm

is not alvin the only dpoy winner from a below league average defense?

maybe he was still fantastic but that data point always seems very surprising to me about his dpoy

Post #13 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:01 pm

falcolombardi wrote:is not alvin the only dpoy winner from a below league average defense?

maybe he was still fantastic but that data point always seems very surprising to me about his dpoy

Robertson has a very good case as the most overrated DPOY by a wide margin. It was based on his Steals numbers, and that is a precarious stat. When you get a steal, it's arguably the most valuable box score event you can get...but any stat that represents an action that occurs successfully 1 in every 25 possessions should make us ask:

How is this effecting the other 24 possessions?

When I see a great defense whose key edges seem to be based on steals I have no problem pointing to a thief as possibly their most valuable defender and a DPOY candidate, but in a defense that is giving up high eFG to the opponent, you have to ask whether they'd be in better shape if the ball thief played defense more defensively.