Replace Kobe with Wade on Lakers

[migya]

Wade from rookie season 04 - 15 in place of Kobe 97-08, on Lakers.

How many championships do they get?

Does Wade rank higher alltime and where would he be ranked?

[falcolombardi]

dont you mean 98-08?

[migya]

dont you mean 98-08?

Fixed it.

[Im Your Father]

Is Wade still getting all those injuries?

[cupcakesnake]

Kobe is a better fit in the triangle. Those baseline cuts into short jumpers were absolute butter. Kobe's superior shooting is a big factor here. Being big enough to play on the wing is a factor. Knowing Phil Jackson, he would have slotted Wade at point guard because he always wanted the largest possible backcourt.

Wade is a great player and would have done fine. Maybe they still 3-peat, maybe they don't. We forget how close those Lakers came to only winning a single championship.

Just for the sake of narrative fun, I'll propose this scenario: since Kobe's 3-point barrage was key to the Lakers 2000 series victory over the Blazers, I'm giving those Blazers a tight victory in 7. Lakers still crush everyone in 2001, and Wade's foul drawing ability actually makes their victory over the Kings in 2002 an easier one (though people complain about the officiating just as much because...Donaghy lol). However, since the Kobe/Shaq beef never happens (it's hard to ignore how toxic Kobe was in those later years with Shaq) the Lakers do not implode. They lose in 7 to the Spurs in 2003, but beat the Pistons in 2004 in a tough 7-game series (the Pistons did not have a good defender for Wade the way they did for Kobe. Shaq signs an extension, and the Lakers win again in 2006 (same Shaq-Wade duo) but then Shaq's injuries completely derail the team under the weight of his contract and that big toe. So they don't 3-peat but they win 4 championships in 7 seasons.

[LAL1947]

Just for the sake of narrative fun, I'll propose this scenario

Just for the sake of narrative fun, I'll play along too... and Jamaal might even like my scenario more than his own.

The Lakers only win 1 title, 1999-2000... because Kobe would have joined another team, most likely teamed up with KG over in Minnesota (who would've been the perfect partner for Kobe since he was just as elite, hard-working and dedicated to the cause). Minny had some other nice players that we'd keep... Chauncey Billups, Wally Szerbiak were on their 2000 roster... the forgotten Joe Smith was on their 1999 roster. So now I've got a core of:

Chauncey (24yo)
Kobe (22yo)
Wally (23yo)
KG (24yo)
Joe (24yo)

Holy cow! Everyone fits so perfectly, it's almost like playing NBA2k.

They would've smashed Shaq/Wade, Duncan/Parker/Manu, the Pistons, a KG-less Celtics or Lebron's Cavs, and Wade/Pau from 2001 to 2010. The RealGM All-Time Top 10 would also need to be re-done, to account for Kobe and KG having 8-10 titles each, Chauncey too... and Wally replaces Hobblin' Horry as the GOAT role-player.

it's hard to ignore how toxic Kobe was in those later years with Shaq

Please stop perpetrating this myth that Kobe was toxic. It was Shaq who was toxic, in two ways... 1) in terms of not wanting to let Kobe take-over as the 1st option and choosing not to be gracious.... and 2) in terms of the contract disputes he had with management. Even after he got his wish and was traded to Miami for a package that was intended to sabotage Kobe's next years, Shaq's toxic behavior continued. Do you remember the video he made in that club dissing Kobe? Shaq's toxicity is the source for whatever you saw in Kobe in that time period.

[No-more-rings]

I don't really think they'd be relevant those last 3 years given Wade's massive decline, and they wouldn't be serious contenders for anything in the non-Shaq years. I'm also assuming that Shaq leaves at the same time. Look though, Wade won a title with old Shaq and came very close to 2 straight finals. He'd win rings with him of course.

1997- Rookie Wade was better than rookie Kobe, so maybe they win a few more regular season games but they don't beat the Jazz whether that's in the 2nd round or WCF.

1998- They should get the best record in the West pretty easily here, are they good enough to beat the Jazz? Maybe, but I'd have them falling to the Bulls regardless.

1999- They win the title pretty easily here, no team that year is stopping 06 Wade and near peak Shaq. Having Wade attack the rim relentlessly forces the twin towers to focus less on Shaq so I think that changes everything there.

2000- Even if Wade ends up hobbled in the playoffs, they should still win it here.

2001- No title, assuming the Wade injury still happens.

2002- Pretty easy title. 09 Wade+02 Shaq.

2003- Results probably don't really change here.

2004- This year is probably more interesting than any other for me, but i think they win it. Kobe was so bad in those last few games, I can't imagine healthy Wade doesn't make a big difference here. Kobe played so poorly, and Pistons never really gave Wade problems given what he did in 2006 and a few of those games in 2005.

So 4 titles, no threepeat as said above.

[migya]

Kobe is a better fit in the triangle. Those baseline cuts into short jumpers were absolute butter. Kobe's superior shooting is a big factor here. Being big enough to play on the wing is a factor. Knowing Phil Jackson, he would have slotted Wade at point guard because he always wanted the largest possible backcourt.

Wade is a great player and would have done fine. Maybe they still 3-peat, maybe they don't. We forget how close those Lakers came to only winning a single championship.

Just for the sake of narrative fun, I'll propose this scenario: since Kobe's 3-point barrage was key to the Lakers 2000 series victory over the Blazers, I'm giving those Blazers a tight victory in 7. Lakers still crush everyone in 2001, and Wade's foul drawing ability actually makes their victory over the Kings in 2002 an easier one (though people complain about the officiating just as much because...Donaghy lol). However, since the Kobe/Shaq beef never happens (it's hard to ignore how toxic Kobe was in those later years with Shaq) the Lakers do not implode. They lose in 7 to the Spurs in 2003, but beat the Pistons in 2004 in a tough 7-game series (the Pistons did not have a good defender for Wade the way they did for Kobe. Shaq signs an extension, and the Lakers win again in 2006 (same Shaq-Wade duo) but then Shaq's injuries completely derail the team under the weight of his contract and that big toe. So they don't 3-peat but they win 4 championships in 7 seasons.

Interesting take. I think they could win in 99, as corresponds with 06 Wade fmvp. Wade's driving ability and foul drawing is huge versus Spurs. Kobe was not a star yet that season, Wade was. Think they could win 4 straight. If they get buy Spurs in 04 they beat Pistons because as you said, they couldn't guard Wade like they did Kobe. Prince showed in 06 Wade is far too quick.

[cupcakesnake]

Just for the sake of narrative fun, I'll propose this scenario

Just for the sake of narrative fun, I'll play along too... and Jamaal might even like my scenario more than his own.

The Lakers only win 1 title, 1999-2000... because Kobe would have joined another team, most likely teamed up with KG over in Minnesota (who would've been the perfect partner for Kobe since he was just as elite, hard-working and dedicated to the cause). Minny had some other nice players that we'd keep... Chauncey Billups, Wally Szerbiak were on their 2000 roster... the forgotten Joe Smith was on their 1999 roster. So now I've got a core of:

Chauncey (24yo)
Kobe (22yo)
Wally (23yo)
KG (24yo)
Joe (24yo)

Holy cow! Everyone fits so perfectly, it's almost like playing NBA2k.

They would've smashed Shaq/Wade, Duncan/Parker/Manu, the Pistons, a KG-less Celtics or Lebron's Cavs, and Wade/Pau from 2001 to 2010. The RealGM All-Time Top 10 would also need to be re-done, to account for Kobe and KG having 8-10 titles each, Chauncey too... and Wally replaces Hobblin' Horry as the GOAT role-player.

it's hard to ignore how toxic Kobe was in those later years with Shaq

Please stop perpetrating this myth that Kobe was toxic. It was Shaq who was toxic, in two ways... 1) in terms of not wanting to let Kobe take-over as the 1st option and choosing not to be gracious.... and 2) in terms of the contract disputes he had with management. Even after he got his wish and was traded to Miami for a package that was intended to sabotage Kobe's next years, Shaq's toxic behavior continued. Do you remember the video he made in that club dissing Kobe? Shaq's toxicity is the source for whatever you saw in Kobe in that time period.

As much as I like this Timberwolves dynasty scenario: the illegal Joe Smith contract robbed us of draft picks, cap space, and Joe Smith himself. So I don't see how we get Kobe in any realistic scenario. I agree that Kobe/KG is an awesome pairing.

As for the toxicity... I wasn't there so you'll have to take this up with Phil Jackson since I'm just going off what he wrote in his book. I agree that Shaq was also a toxic personality.

[LAL1947]

As much as I like this Timberwolves dynasty scenario: the illegal Joe Smith contract robbed us of draft picks, cap space, and Joe Smith himself. So I don't see how we get Kobe in any realistic scenario. I agree that Kobe/KG is an awesome pairing.

Haha, this is fantasy... and OP has Wade joining the Lakers in 1996-97, to replace rookie Kobe... so Kobe needs to go somewhere else, on a rookie contract. Minnesota didn't sign Joe Smith until 1998. The reason why Joe signed those below market-value deals was to allow the Timberwolves to make additional short-term moves, which wouldn't be needed with a Kobe-KG duo already in place. So Joe now signs for a normal contract, there's no drama, and Minny keeps the draft picks that were taken from them.

[cupcakesnake]

As much as I like this Timberwolves dynasty scenario: the illegal Joe Smith contract robbed us of draft picks, cap space, and Joe Smith himself. So I don't see how we get Kobe in any realistic scenario. I agree that Kobe/KG is an awesome pairing.

Haha, this is fantasy... and OP has Wade joining the Lakers in 1996-97, replacing Kobe as a rookie... so Kobe has to go somewhere else. Minnesota didn't sign Joe Smith until 1998. The reason given for why he signed those below market-value deals was to allow the Timberwolves to make additional short-term moves, which they wouldn't need with a Kobe-KG duo already in place. So Joe now signs for a normal contract, no drama ensues, and Minny also has the draft picks that were taken from them.

I accept!

[laronprofit9]

I don’t like the assumption that Wade would’ve won in 2004 and that the 2004 Pistons and 2006 Pistons are the same. When they clearly weren’t. I’m not sure if the Lakers even make it past the Spurs that year with Wade instead of Kobe. Kobe played brilliantly against the Spurs in 2004, and had legit one of his greatest games ever in game 4 by scoring 42 points with the Lakers down 2-1 in the series. That performance goes so unnoticed but it’s legit arguably one of Kobe’s all time great playoff games. That game was a must win and the Lakers couldn’t afford to go down 3-1 to the Spurs who were probably the best team in the west (arguably all of NBA, led NBA with 7.51 SRS) that year. Really felt like an elimination game if you watched it at the time. The Spurs were #1 in defensive rating that year at 94.1. Underrated performance in one of the toughest defensive environments ever (considering team, rules, pace, gravity, era). That I’m not sure Wade for sure replicates.

2004 Pistons were a much better team and they took advantage of the rules before the hand checking rules were changed for the 2004-2005 season. The favorable calls Wade got in the 2006 finals weren’t going to happen in 2004. Also Mark Cuban made mention of how the Pistons were taking advantage of the current rules at the time that they couldn’t do in following years of 2005 and 2006.

https://blogmaverick.com/2009/02/04/if-its-not-broke-doesnt-mean-its-optimal-even-in-the-nba/

So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often

[Im Your Father]

I don’t like the assumption that Wade would’ve won in 2004 and that the 2004 Pistons and 2006 Pistons are the same. When they clearly weren’t. I’m not sure if the Lakers even make it past the Spurs that year with Wade instead of Kobe. Kobe played brilliantly against the Spurs in 2004, and had legit one of his greatest games ever in game 4 by scoring 42 points with the Lakers down 2-1 in the series. That performance goes so unnoticed but it’s legit arguably one of Kobe’s all time great playoff games. That game was a must win and the Lakers couldn’t afford to go down 3-1 to the Spurs who were probably the best team in the west (arguably all of NBA, led NBA with 7.51 SRS) that year. Really felt like an elimination game if you watched it at the time. The Spurs were #1 in defensive rating that year at 94.1. Underrated performance in one of the toughest defensive environments ever (considering team, rules, pace, gravity, era). That I’m not sure Wade for sure replicates.

2004 Pistons were a much better team and they took advantage of the rules before the hand checking rules were changed for the 2004-2005 season. The favorable calls Wade got in the 2006 finals weren’t going to happen in 2004. Also Mark Cuban made mention of how the Pistons were taking advantage of the current rules at the time that they couldn’t do in following years of 2005 and 2006.

https://blogmaverick.com/2009/02/04/if-its-not-broke-doesnt-mean-its-optimal-even-in-the-nba/

So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often

That's a pretty decent point, and I'm not guaranteeing Wade wins the 04 series by any means. That being said, if there's ever a guard who we can feel good about going against that Piston's team, it's Wade who tore them up in 06 (arguably a better series than against Dallas given the defensive personnel) and was playing great against them in 05 as well before going down to injury in Game 5.

[migya]

So would Wade be ranked higher than he is and where would he be on your alltime rankings?

I think with at least for championships with the Lakers, at least one fmvp, maybe two, he is top 20.