Where do you think Luka ends up, career wise?

[falcolombardi]

I actually didn't vote. I couldn't decide, because I feel like option #2 makes you the GOAT as well. Once you are in that 2nd group, there will be many people who view you as the GOAT. I imagine it will be hard to get a majority opinion for the position of GOAT if that is what it was asking. A small hangup that made me not vote, lol.

You think Doncic could be as good as Lebron or Jordan given his limited athleticism and defense compared to them? I just can’t get behind that.

It depends on how you value the accolades of ATGs.
Suppose if Green did not get the ban and Curry won 2016 FMVP; 2019 Thompson did not get hurt and Curry won another FMVP. This year Curry gets another. Would you rank Curry ahead of LeBron with 6 rings, never lost in the finals, and 3 FMVPs, or at least ahead of Duncan? He would never have the athleticism and defense.

you are arguing that winning plays a big part in players perception, which is true, but assuming the same level of play shouldnt be so

the 16 finals example you gave is a good one cause thst series by curry was bad by a superstar standards snd hr got outplayed clearly by lebron,

curry being ahead based on a finals where he was outplayed would be like if knicks won in 94 and ewing was ranked above hakeem for it when the dream couldnt have outplayed him harder or locked him down more

[dygaction]

You think Doncic could be as good as Lebron or Jordan given his limited athleticism and defense compared to them? I just can’t get behind that.

It depends on how you value the accolades of ATGs.
Suppose if Green did not get the ban and Curry won 2016 FMVP; 2019 Thompson did not get hurt and Curry won another FMVP. This year Curry gets another. Would you rank Curry ahead of LeBron with 6 rings, never lost in the finals, and 3 FMVPs, or at least ahead of Duncan? He would never have the athleticism and defense.

you are arguing that winning plays a big part in players perception, which is true, but assuming the same level of play shouldnt be so

the 16 finals example you gave is a good one cause thst series by curry was bad by a superstar standards snd hr got outplayed clearly by lebron,

curry being ahead based on a finals where he was outplayed would be like if knicks won in 94 and ewing was ranked above hakeem for it when the dream couldnt have outplayed him harder or locked him down more

It would still make Curry the best player on the best team though. He had a not so great finals but still finished the playoff with 25/5/5 on 40% 3s and 60TS%. Was 2018 KG finals' performance better than Kobe, or does it matter?

[70sFan]

It depends on how you value the accolades of ATGs.
Suppose if Green did not get the ban and Curry won 2016 FMVP; 2019 Thompson did not get hurt and Curry won another FMVP. This year Curry gets another. Would you rank Curry ahead of LeBron with 6 rings, never lost in the finals, and 3 FMVPs, or at least ahead of Duncan? He would never have the athleticism and defense.

you are arguing that winning plays a big part in players perception, which is true, but assuming the same level of play shouldnt be so

the 16 finals example you gave is a good one cause thst series by curry was bad by a superstar standards snd hr got outplayed clearly by lebron,

curry being ahead based on a finals where he was outplayed would be like if knicks won in 94 and ewing was ranked above hakeem for it when the dream couldnt have outplayed him harder or locked him down more

It would still make Curry the best player on the best team though. He had a not so great finals but still finished the playoff with 25/5/5 on 40% 3s and 60TS%. Was 2018 KG finals' performance better than Kobe, or does it matter?

I don't think it's that clear that Steph would become GOAT candidate with 2016 ring. For starters, he wasn't Warriors best player in that series - Green was. Without a suspension, his case would be even stronger.

[dygaction]

you are arguing that winning plays a big part in players perception, which is true, but assuming the same level of play shouldnt be so

the 16 finals example you gave is a good one cause thst series by curry was bad by a superstar standards snd hr got outplayed clearly by lebron,

curry being ahead based on a finals where he was outplayed would be like if knicks won in 94 and ewing was ranked above hakeem for it when the dream couldnt have outplayed him harder or locked him down more

It would still make Curry the best player on the best team though. He had a not so great finals but still finished the playoff with 25/5/5 on 40% 3s and 60TS%. Was 2018 KG finals' performance better than Kobe, or does it matter?

I don't think it's that clear that Steph would become GOAT candidate with 2016 ring. For starters, he wasn't Warriors best player in that series - Green was. Without a suspension, his case would be even stronger.

Draymond would have a much weaker case over Curry than KG 2008 over Pierce, or 2007 Manu over Parker.

[Cavsfansince84]

Top 25 seems almost like a given if he can stay healthy and starts taking better care of his cardio. Given how good he usually is in the playoffs I'd also think he makes at least a few finals and probably wins a ring too which probably means top 20. After that it depends how high of a 4-5 year peak he can have which means is there a period where he's viewed as the best player in the league and is winning mvps if he's going to be top 10-12. Though both Oscar and West never really did that and are still top 13 in many people's eyes which also has to do with how well rounded their games were which is something Luka also has. My biggest question with Luka is can he tighten up his scoring game(ft/3p shooting) and how well he can play with another top 15 player which he'll probably need to do in order to win rings.

[70sFan]

It would still make Curry the best player on the best team though. He had a not so great finals but still finished the playoff with 25/5/5 on 40% 3s and 60TS%. Was 2018 KG finals' performance better than Kobe, or does it matter?

I don't think it's that clear that Steph would become GOAT candidate with 2016 ring. For starters, he wasn't Warriors best player in that series - Green was. Without a suspension, his case would be even stronger.

Draymond would have a much weaker case over Curry than KG 2008 over Pierce, or 2007 Manu over Parker.

Why? Because of ppg? Green was the best Warriors player in that series, it is nothing controversial for people who watched this series during that time.

[Matt15]

If he stays healthy he will end up in the Kobe/West/Oscar tier.

[dygaction]

I don't think it's that clear that Steph would become GOAT candidate with 2016 ring. For starters, he wasn't Warriors best player in that series - Green was. Without a suspension, his case would be even stronger.

Draymond would have a much weaker case over Curry than KG 2008 over Pierce, or 2007 Manu over Parker.

Why? Because of ppg? Green was the best Warriors player in that series, it is nothing controversial for people who watched this series during that time.

Draymond vs. Curry case would be similar to Pau vs. Kobe in 2010, you can make a case, but it is relatively weak. KG and Manu had stronger or more reasonable case, particularly if you do not only look at the finals.

[jalengreen]

I'm not convinced that it's possible for an average defensive player to be offensively impactful enough such that the gap in their offense and that of LeBron/Kareem/Jordan makes up for the defensive gap.

I just don't know how much better you can get offensively

Would Steph be in that discussion with six rings? No, I don't think so because he'd still just be a GOAT level offensive player and an insignificant defender. IMO we already have that in Magic and to me personally, I don't think Magic has a great argument over LeBron or Jordan.

Luka should be able to have some great longevity, but I don't see a scenario where that would be enough when he's being compared to the likes of LeBron and Jordan

Could definitely see him ending up in that fringe top 10 group of guys

[Cavsfansince84]

Draymond would have a much weaker case over Curry than KG 2008 over Pierce, or 2007 Manu over Parker.

Why? Because of ppg? Green was the best Warriors player in that series, it is nothing controversial for people who watched this series during that time.

Draymond vs. Curry case would be similar to Pau vs. Kobe in 2010, you can make a case, but it is relatively weak. KG and Manu had stronger or more reasonable case, particularly if you do not only look at the finals.

Worth noting that using game score for that finals which is purely box score derived I think and doesn't really take into account defense the Warriors best player was Green at 17.2 followed by Steph at 13.1. In 2010 it was 18.7 for Kobe to 18.6 for Pau.

[dygaction]

Why? Because of ppg? Green was the best Warriors player in that series, it is nothing controversial for people who watched this series during that time.

Draymond vs. Curry case would be similar to Pau vs. Kobe in 2010, you can make a case, but it is relatively weak. KG and Manu had stronger or more reasonable case, particularly if you do not only look at the finals.

Worth noting that using game score for that finals which is purely box score derived I think and doesn't really take into account defense the Warriors best player was Green at 17.2 followed by Steph at 13.1. In 2010 it was 18.7 for Kobe to 18.6 for Pau.

Sounds about right, then you take into account on the offensive side Steph-Draymond > Kobe-Pau.

[Cavsfansince84]

Worth noting that using game score for that finals which is purely box score derived I think and doesn't really take into account defense the Warriors best player was Green at 17.2 followed by Steph at 13.1. In 2010 it was 18.7 for Kobe to 18.6 for Pau.

Sounds about right, then you take into account on the offensive side Steph-Draymond > Kobe-Pau.

I think Draymond had more of a case if they won game 7 than Pau did. More so when you factor in how good he was that game.

[dygaction]

Worth noting that using game score for that finals which is purely box score derived I think and doesn't really take into account defense the Warriors best player was Green at 17.2 followed by Steph at 13.1. In 2010 it was 18.7 for Kobe to 18.6 for Pau.

Sounds about right, then you take into account on the offensive side Steph-Draymond > Kobe-Pau.

I think Draymond had more of a case if they won game 7 than Pau did. More so when you factor in how good he was that game.

Yes, I agree. It was a melt down game for Curry

[70sFan]

Draymond would have a much weaker case over Curry than KG 2008 over Pierce, or 2007 Manu over Parker.

Why? Because of ppg? Green was the best Warriors player in that series, it is nothing controversial for people who watched this series during that time.

Draymond vs. Curry case would be similar to Pau vs. Kobe in 2010, you can make a case, but it is relatively weak. KG and Manu had stronger or more reasonable case, particularly if you do not only look at the finals.

Feel free to disagree, but for me not only it isn't weak, but I find Curry's case incredibly weak over Draymond. I know you don't care about defense, but even offensively Green had excellent series. Better than Pau's in 2010 and Curry was worse than Kobe in 2010.

[dygaction]

Why? Because of ppg? Green was the best Warriors player in that series, it is nothing controversial for people who watched this series during that time.

Draymond vs. Curry case would be similar to Pau vs. Kobe in 2010, you can make a case, but it is relatively weak. KG and Manu had stronger or more reasonable case, particularly if you do not only look at the finals.

Feel free to disagree, but for me not only it isn't weak, but I find Curry's case incredibly weak over Draymond. I know you don't care about defense, but even offensively Green had excellent series. Better than Pau's in 2010 and Curry was worse than Kobe in 2010.

Yes if you only look at the final series alone, no if you look at the entire playoff run.

[Jaivl]

It would still make Curry the best player on the best team though. He had a not so great finals but still finished the playoff with 25/5/5 on 40% 3s and 60TS%. Was 2018 KG finals' performance better than Kobe, or does it matter?

I don't think it's that clear that Steph would become GOAT candidate with 2016 ring. For starters, he wasn't Warriors best player in that series - Green was. Without a suspension, his case would be even stronger.

Draymond would have a much weaker case over Curry than KG 2008 over Pierce, or 2007 Manu over Parker.

Looool okay, you're a troll, it's set in stone.

[70sFan]

Draymond vs. Curry case would be similar to Pau vs. Kobe in 2010, you can make a case, but it is relatively weak. KG and Manu had stronger or more reasonable case, particularly if you do not only look at the finals.

Feel free to disagree, but for me not only it isn't weak, but I find Curry's case incredibly weak over Draymond. I know you don't care about defense, but even offensively Green had excellent series. Better than Pau's in 2010 and Curry was worse than Kobe in 2010.

Yes if you only look at the final series alone, no if you look at the entire playoff run.

1. That's finals MVP, not playoffs MVP.

2. You mean entire playoffs in which Curry missed 1.5 series, while Green led Warriors past Rockets? They were winning vs Portland without Curry as well. The only series in which Curry was better than Green was WCF, which is no small at all given the circumstances, but I fail to see overall edge for Curry in 2016 playoffs.

[dygaction]

I don't think it's that clear that Steph would become GOAT candidate with 2016 ring. For starters, he wasn't Warriors best player in that series - Green was. Without a suspension, his case would be even stronger.

Draymond would have a much weaker case over Curry than KG 2008 over Pierce, or 2007 Manu over Parker.

Looool okay, you're a troll, it's set in stone.

? which part don't you disagree?

[dygaction]

Feel free to disagree, but for me not only it isn't weak, but I find Curry's case incredibly weak over Draymond. I know you don't care about defense, but even offensively Green had excellent series. Better than Pau's in 2010 and Curry was worse than Kobe in 2010.

Yes if you only look at the final series alone, no if you look at the entire playoff run.

1. That's finals MVP, not playoffs MVP.

2. You mean entire playoffs in which Curry missed 1.5 series, while Green led Warriors past Rockets? They were winning vs Portland without Curry as well. The only series in which Curry was better than Green was WCF, which is no small at all given the circumstances, but I fail to see overall edge for Curry in 2016 playoffs.

How do you define 1.5 series? Curry contributed 2 needed wins to each series. Green was not really better than Klay either.
Finals MVP, Iguodala and KG had better case over Green, even if they had won in 2016. First of all, if it were not for Draymond's utterly incompetence in scoring (2 games <10pts) and one game ban, it should not have gone to game 7.

[70sFan]

Yes if you only look at the final series alone, no if you look at the entire playoff run.

1. That's finals MVP, not playoffs MVP.

2. You mean entire playoffs in which Curry missed 1.5 series, while Green led Warriors past Rockets? They were winning vs Portland without Curry as well. The only series in which Curry was better than Green was WCF, which is no small at all given the circumstances, but I fail to see overall edge for Curry in 2016 playoffs.

How do you define 1.5 series? Curry contributed 2 needed wins to each series. Green was not really better than Klay either.
Finals MVP, Iguodala and KG had better case over Green, even if they had won in 2016. First of all, if it were not for Draymond's utterly incompetence in scoring (2 games <10pts) and one game ban, it should not have gone to game 7.

I define 1.5 series as that he missed 6 out of 10 games in the first two series and he contributed basically nothing in one game he played (and played very limited minutes in game 1 vs Houston). Calling 3 games out of 10 1.5 series is very generous from my side.

Again, you view whole basketball through scoring lenses. Are you aware that players can be the best on the court without scoring 10 points? OR is it impossible in your criteria?

Let's take a closer look on the finals:

Game 1 - Warriors win.

Curry scored 11 points on 37 TS% and had 5 turnovers. He had also negative +/- in that game for 36 minutes of play.
Green scored 16 points on 63 TS% and he had more assists with less turnovers than Curry. All while having the best +/- among starters and limiting Cavs offense to 99.5 ORtg.
Klay was even worse than Curry in that game.

Clear edge for Green.

Game 2 - Warriors win.

Curry scored 18 points on 82% TS and had 4 assists with 4 turnovers. He was +25 in 24 minutes.
Green scored 28 points on 69% TS and had 5 assists with 1 turnover. He was +20 in 34 minutes.

It's a blowout win, so I wouldn't put too much weight in production but Green was still more productive on offensive end and he crushed Cavs offense again.

Game 3 - Cavs win.

Curry scored 19 points on 58 TS% and had 3 assists with 6 turnovers. He was -22 in 31 minutes.
Green scored 6 points on 31 TS% and had 7 assists with 2 turnovers. He was -15 in 36 minutes.

Blowout loss, neither player played particulary well. I guess you'd give Curry the edge here, but it's not a good game from him at all.

Game 4 - Warriors win.

Curry scored 38 points on 65 TS% and had 6 assists with 3 turnovers. He was +10 in 40 minutes.
Green scored 9 points on 36% TS and had 4 assists with 3 turnovers. He was +14 in 42 minutes.

This one is clearly Curry, although if you use this game as an example of Green's incompetence then I fail to see how it hurt Warriors in this game.

Game 5 - Cavs win.

Curry by the fact Green missed this game, but it's not a good game from Curry and Warriors lost despite Thompson's 37 points. Without Green, James and Kyrie scored 82 points combined.

Game 6 - Cavs win.

Curry scored 30 points on 63 TS% and had 1 assists with 4 turnovers. He was -11 in 35 minutes. He got fouled out.
Green scored 8 points on 51 TS% and had 6 assists with 1 turnovers. He was -12 in 41 minutes.

Curry scored 3 points, so he has to have the edge here, right? I'm not that sure, he didn't create much in that game and he was abused on defensive end. Green didn't have amazing game either, but I wouldn't call it clear either way.

Game 7 - Cavs win.

Curry scored 17 points on 44 TS% and had 2 assists with 4 turnovers. He was -3 in 39 minutes.
Green scored 32 points on 96 TS% and had 9 assists with 2 turnovers. He was -1 in 47 minutes.

This is all-time great performance vs all-time bad performance. I don't think I have to explain you how massive edge Green has here.

So overall, we have Curry with 3 games better, but two of them weren't that good to begin with (games 3 and 5). Curry had only one great game for the whole series (game 4) and the other decent one (game 6), he was poor in the rest.

Green has the edge in 3 games clearly (games 1, 2 and 7) and he was poor in game 3. Overall, he was much more consistent in that series and we haven't really put his defense into account either.

It's only my subjective opinion, but you can read more in-depth breakdown of each game in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1898526&start=40

Curry was called the MVP of the game only once, while Green three times.

I fail to see how it's clearly Curry, who has been extremely mediocre for the whole series.