Luka/Harden comparisons

[MartinToVaught]

He quit one team and it was caused by Kyrie drama.

He absolutely quit on the Rockets. He showed up to the season out-of-shape on purpose while demanding a trade, skipping Silas' first practices and openly flouting the COVID rules while daring the Rockets to do something about it. If that's not quitting, nothing is.

And while Kyrie was surely a factor in Harden quitting on the Nets, it was more complex than just that. Literally the minute Harden had to face the adversity in the regular season that he ran to Brooklyn to avoid, he demanded another trade. He thought he was above being a good teammate and holding down the fort without Kyrie/KD. His relationship with KD had also reportedly deteriorated by the time he demanded out. Seeing as how he's clashed with every single star he's played with - even Embiid, judging from his postgame comments after the Miami series - it can't always be the other guys' fault and not Harden's.

Harden worked harder on his skills development than any offensive superstar.

Couldn't disagree more. Just off the top of my head, Kawhi, Giannis and Blake had more impressive transformations considering how raw they were when they first came into the league. I'm sure there's more examples.

If anything, Harden's offensive game has regressed over the years as he's almost completely removed the midrange shot from his bag, making him more predictable. He's also never really developed the off-ball game that would make a player like him so much better.

[Bergmaniac]

This narrative that Harden is bad in the playoffs because he stops getting calls is so weird to me. He's had 3 playoff runs where he averaged 10+ free throw attempts, 7 runs with over 8 free throw attempts per game. His playoff career free throw drawing rate is 48.7 %, which is really good and just slightly below his regular season number of 52.4 %.

[Peregrine01]

This narrative that Harden is bad in the playoffs because he stops getting calls is so weird to me. He's had 3 playoff runs where he averaged 10+ free throw attempts, 7 runs with over 8 free throw attempts per game. His playoff career free throw drawing rate is 48.7 %, which is really good and just slightly below his regular season number of 52.4 %.

There's a big difference between x FTR with physicality and the same x FTR with barely any physicality. Harden was drawing fouls (especially on 3s) at an utterly insane rate in the regular season while being virtually unable to be touched at all on drives. He still got calls because that's who he is but the easy strolls into the lane for lay-ups and wide-open 3s because defenders were petrified of sending him to the line were gone in the playoffs.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Read on Twitter

[Peregrine01]

Read on Twitter

I don't think averages tell a really good story when evaluating playoff performances. Variability is huge when every game matters. Having 2 10/10 games and then 4 6/10 games, means that you averaged ~7/10 in 6 games. But those 4 6/10 games probably meant that your team lost big and the series wasn't all that close. I think Harden's game has a lot more variability in both extremes than Luka has.

[BmanInBigD]

Luka has a much better post and mid-range game than Harden. Harden really is just lay-up, 3, or FT's. Which isn't necessarily bad if you can get the FT's. About 35-40% of Luka's shots come from 3-16 feet, from which he shoots a pretty good percentage. That adds another dimension for the defense, another place for him to shoot or pass from. To me that makes him different from Harden. I don't like him whining to the refs all the time, but I also don't wanna see him parade to the FT line all game like vintage Harden. And he
seems to get better the bigger the stage, unlike the Talibeard.

Warned for Islamophobic undertones in "Talibeard", whether that was deliberate or not.

[uberhikari]

Listen, there's only one difference between Luka and Harden that matters: Harden is a mental midget and Luka is not. I hate to use cliches like this, but in this instance it's true, Harden doesn't have a clutch bone in his body. He always shrinks in the moment. James Harden is like 2011 LeBron vs Dallas...except it's every year on repeat.

[parsnips33]

Listen, there's only one difference between Luka and Harden that matters: Harden is a mental midget and Luka is not. I hate to use cliches like this, but in this instance it's true, Harden doesn't have a clutch bone in his body. He always shrinks in the moment. James Harden is like 2011 LeBron vs Dallas...except it's every year on repeat.

Even if this is true (definitely a difference in mentality and approach between the 2), there's so many other differences in their games. Why can't people talk about actual basketball? Why does every comparison have to end with one guy being a choking loser and the other guy being MJ reincarnated?

This type of stuff always comes off like the kid in class who didn't do the reading and has to say some vague BS when they get called on.

Not trying to take a shot at you specifically, I just think there's so much interesting discussion to be had that it frustrates me when we stick to surface level cliches and generalities

[uberhikari]

Listen, there's only one difference between Luka and Harden that matters: Harden is a mental midget and Luka is not. I hate to use cliches like this, but in this instance it's true, Harden doesn't have a clutch bone in his body. He always shrinks in the moment. James Harden is like 2011 LeBron vs Dallas...except it's every year on repeat.

Even if this is true (definitely a difference in mentality and approach between the 2), there's so many other differences in their games. Why can't people talk about actual basketball? Why does every comparison have to end with one guy being a choking loser and the other guy being MJ reincarnated?

This type of stuff always comes off like the kid in class who didn't do the reading and has to say some vague BS when they get called on.

Not trying to take a shot at you specifically, I just think there's so much interesting discussion to be had that it frustrates me when we stick to surface level cliches and generalities

In this particular case, this isn't about a difference in basketball skill but a difference in mental fortitude. If LeBron had continued to not perform in the playoffs after 2011 it would be the same thing. Everybody would be saying this is not about basketball skill but this is a problem LeBron has with mental fortitude.

[parsnips33]

Listen, there's only one difference between Luka and Harden that matters: Harden is a mental midget and Luka is not. I hate to use cliches like this, but in this instance it's true, Harden doesn't have a clutch bone in his body. He always shrinks in the moment. James Harden is like 2011 LeBron vs Dallas...except it's every year on repeat.

Even if this is true (definitely a difference in mentality and approach between the 2), there's so many other differences in their games. Why can't people talk about actual basketball? Why does every comparison have to end with one guy being a choking loser and the other guy being MJ reincarnated?

This type of stuff always comes off like the kid in class who didn't do the reading and has to say some vague BS when they get called on.

Not trying to take a shot at you specifically, I just think there's so much interesting discussion to be had that it frustrates me when we stick to surface level cliches and generalities

In this particular case, this isn't about a difference in basketball skill but a difference in mental fortitude. If LeBron had continued to not perform in the playoffs after 2011 it would be the same thing. Everybody would be saying this is not about basketball skill but this is a problem LeBron has with mental fortitude.

Here's a difference - when's the last time you saw Harden take a smaller defender to the post? Both Harden and Luka hunt mismatches against switching defenses, but Harden's almost always attacking from the top of the key and trying to generate step back 3s even against smaller defenders. Luka is more likely to go that stepback (which I think is slower and not as effective as Harden's) when he gets a big guy switched on him. On the other hand, he's got not problem backing down smaller guys on swtiches.

Is this post up based, inside out offense more reliable at the end of games than Harden's approach?

[GSP]

Even if this is true (definitely a difference in mentality and approach between the 2), there's so many other differences in their games. Why can't people talk about actual basketball? Why does every comparison have to end with one guy being a choking loser and the other guy being MJ reincarnated?

This type of stuff always comes off like the kid in class who didn't do the reading and has to say some vague BS when they get called on.

Not trying to take a shot at you specifically, I just think there's so much interesting discussion to be had that it frustrates me when we stick to surface level cliches and generalities

In this particular case, this isn't about a difference in basketball skill but a difference in mental fortitude. If LeBron had continued to not perform in the playoffs after 2011 it would be the same thing. Everybody would be saying this is not about basketball skill but this is a problem LeBron has with mental fortitude.

Here's a difference - when's the last time you saw Harden take a smaller defender to the post? Both Harden and Luka hunt mismatches against switching defenses, but Harden's almost always attacking from the top of the key and trying to generate step back 3s even against smaller defenders. Luka is more likely to go that stepback (which I think is slower and not as effective as Harden's) when he gets a big guy switched on him. On the other hand, he's got not problem backing down smaller guys on swtiches.

Is this post up based, inside out offense more reliable at the end of games than Harden's approach?

Luka also takes midrange shots. Harden early in Houston used to take them but he gradually became a Moreyball layups, free throws and 3s gimmick. He was far more predictable

[uberhikari]

Even if this is true (definitely a difference in mentality and approach between the 2), there's so many other differences in their games. Why can't people talk about actual basketball? Why does every comparison have to end with one guy being a choking loser and the other guy being MJ reincarnated?

This type of stuff always comes off like the kid in class who didn't do the reading and has to say some vague BS when they get called on.

Not trying to take a shot at you specifically, I just think there's so much interesting discussion to be had that it frustrates me when we stick to surface level cliches and generalities

In this particular case, this isn't about a difference in basketball skill but a difference in mental fortitude. If LeBron had continued to not perform in the playoffs after 2011 it would be the same thing. Everybody would be saying this is not about basketball skill but this is a problem LeBron has with mental fortitude.

Here's a difference - when's the last time you saw Harden take a smaller defender to the post? Both Harden and Luka hunt mismatches against switching defenses, but Harden's almost always attacking from the top of the key and trying to generate step back 3s even against smaller defenders. Luka is more likely to go that stepback (which I think is slower and not as effective as Harden's) when he gets a big guy switched on him. On the other hand, he's got not problem backing down smaller guys on swtiches.

Is this post up based, inside out offense more reliable at the end of games than Harden's approach?

I don't care about the difference in the specific skills between Luka and Harden. That difference in approach is irrelevant. I'm not talking about Harden choking at the end of games. I'm talking about Harden taking himself out of entire games or halves. When a player takes 1 shot in the second half of an elimination game that has nothing to do with basketball skill. That's about mental fortitude. That's about someone literally quitting because of adversity.

[70sFan]

It could be a fine discussion, but as usual people are more happy with talking about "killer instinct" instead.

[parsnips33]

In this particular case, this isn't about a difference in basketball skill but a difference in mental fortitude. If LeBron had continued to not perform in the playoffs after 2011 it would be the same thing. Everybody would be saying this is not about basketball skill but this is a problem LeBron has with mental fortitude.

Here's a difference - when's the last time you saw Harden take a smaller defender to the post? Both Harden and Luka hunt mismatches against switching defenses, but Harden's almost always attacking from the top of the key and trying to generate step back 3s even against smaller defenders. Luka is more likely to go that stepback (which I think is slower and not as effective as Harden's) when he gets a big guy switched on him. On the other hand, he's got not problem backing down smaller guys on swtiches.

Is this post up based, inside out offense more reliable at the end of games than Harden's approach?

I don't care about the difference in the specific skills between Luka and Harden. That difference in approach is irrelevant. I'm not talking about Harden choking at the end of games. I'm talking about Harden taking himself out of entire games or halves. When a player takes 1 shot in the second half of an elimination game that has nothing to do with basketball skill. That's about mental fortitude. That's about someone literally quitting because of adversity.

Ah ok fair enough. I actually think basketball is more interesting than armchair psychology. Carry on

[uberhikari]

Here's a difference - when's the last time you saw Harden take a smaller defender to the post? Both Harden and Luka hunt mismatches against switching defenses, but Harden's almost always attacking from the top of the key and trying to generate step back 3s even against smaller defenders. Luka is more likely to go that stepback (which I think is slower and not as effective as Harden's) when he gets a big guy switched on him. On the other hand, he's got not problem backing down smaller guys on swtiches.

Is this post up based, inside out offense more reliable at the end of games than Harden's approach?

I don't care about the difference in the specific skills between Luka and Harden. That difference in approach is irrelevant. I'm not talking about Harden choking at the end of games. I'm talking about Harden taking himself out of entire games or halves. When a player takes 1 shot in the second half of an elimination game that has nothing to do with basketball skill. That's about mental fortitude. That's about someone literally quitting because of adversity.

Ah ok fair enough. I actually think basketball is more interesting than armchair psychology. Carry on

Sardonic comments are the hallmarks of an inability to make an argument. Carry on.

[70sFan]

I don't care about the difference in the specific skills between Luka and Harden. That difference in approach is irrelevant. I'm not talking about Harden choking at the end of games. I'm talking about Harden taking himself out of entire games or halves. When a player takes 1 shot in the second half of an elimination game that has nothing to do with basketball skill. That's about mental fortitude. That's about someone literally quitting because of adversity.

Ah ok fair enough. I actually think basketball is more interesting than armchair psychology. Carry on

Sardonic comments are the hallmarks of an inability to make an argument. Carry on.

Your argument is that Harden is a choker. That's the level of analysis from insidehoops or random reddit page.

[penbeast0]

Last few comments indicate that this thread has descended to a level of personal sniping that we don't need on this board.

We are here to talk basketball. Psych issues can be part of basketball conversation. Making light of other people takes that you disagree with do not foster conversation but destroy it.

Therefore I am locking this thread and asking all of you not to go continuing this in other threads.

Thank you,
penbeast 0