Has a Prime Star player ever had a worse PS series than Trae Young?

[falcolombardi]

i thought watching this series that a big problem with trae offense this series was his decision making

for as much of a gifted passer he is when he wants, he sometimes seems to just choose not to be

so many times where he would make a smart assist with a perfect pass then spend the next few minutes wasting possesions with bad shots or forcing his own number, pounding the ball way too long and reducing options

i think he needs a wiser game, stop looking to score 30 every time, etc

chris paul should be a look he looks into, curry too or nash

[LukaTheGOAT]

Julius Randle against the Hawks last year is up there.

Yup my intuition was right.

2022 Trae vs Miami

15.9 pts per 75 on rTS% of -8.8%
cTOV% (creation-adjusted turnover rate, or turnovers committed as a percentage of offensive load)-20%

2021 Julius Randle vs The Hawks

19.2 pts per 75 on rTS% of -14.6%

cTOV%-15%

Impact metrics generally think Trae was a bit worse though and I get why. Randle turned the ball over a lot, but Trae was historically bad taking care of the ball. And considering he had used up so many possessions, and the fact that he was easier to target on D, Trae is still potentially worse.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I didn’t watch this series but am not surprised. This is what I expected would happen against him when a good team locks in. His defense is to terrible and he is to small. During the draft I saw a regular season player, once a well coached team can lock-in over a series I’d expect to see more of this.

A lot of people keep saying his size is an issue and while I don’t disagree we’ve seen CP3 torch playoff defenses at Trae’s size.

I think it’s just the media hyping him up too early as a star in his young career. Not that he wasn’t the best player on his team last year but it was a total team effort that helped them.

Small guys need to be mighty and/or ridiculous athletes. Trae is neither. He’s small, weak and subpar athletically. A good defensive team in a series should be able to take him out.

Trae Young was pretty good last year in the PS against 3 top 10 defenses, before he got injured.

[colts18]

CP3's last 5 games might be worse than Trae's 5 game Postseason. CP3 got completely humiliated.

[sp6r=underrated]

CP3's last 5 games might be worse than Trae's 5 game Postseason. CP3 got completely humiliated.

Isn't this prime player

[prolific passer]

Lebron in the 2011 finals.

[Jaivl]

CP3's last 5 games might be worse than Trae's 5 game Postseason. CP3 got completely humiliated.

Isn't this prime player

And also no, not even close. At least Paul shot decently the few times he did it, Trae was horrible in every single front.

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Lebron in the 2011 finals.

I get LeBron wasn't great at all during the 2011 playoffs (thank goodness for Wade and Bosh, or LeBron would have probably had another early playoff exit like 2010), but even with him being at his worst that year, it doesn't come close to how awful Trae Young was in the Miami series this year.

[Jaivl]

Lebron in the 2011 finals.

I get LeBron wasn't great at all during the 2011 playoffs (thank goodness for Wade and Bosh, or LeBron would have probably had another early playoff exit like 2010), but even with him being at his worst that year, it doesn't come close to how awful Trae Young was in the Miami series this year.

Yeah LeBron was very disappointing, but still star caliber on defense alone, a big positive player.
CP3 was probably a neutral, which is very bad for a star.
Trae was... a saboteur.

[GSP]

Julius Randle against the Hawks last year is up there.

Yup my intuition was right.

2022 Trae vs Miami

15.9 pts per 75 on rTS% of -8.8%
cTOV% (creation-adjusted turnover rate, or turnovers committed as a percentage of offensive load)-20%

2021 Julius Randle vs The Hawks

19.2 pts per 75 on rTS% of -14.6%

cTOV%-15%

Impact metrics generally think Trae was a bit worse though and I get why. Randle turned the ball over a lot, but Trae was historically bad taking care of the ball. And considering he had used up so many possessions, and the fact that he was easier to target on D, Trae is still potentially worse.

While Randle was an all star that season I don't think ppl actually consider him a "star player"

[Texas Chuck]

Lebron in the 2011 finals.

I get LeBron wasn't great at all during the 2011 playoffs (thank goodness for Wade and Bosh, or LeBron would have probably had another early playoff exit like 2010), but even with him being at his worst that year, it doesn't come close to how awful Trae Young was in the Miami series this year.

Yeah LeBron was very disappointing, but still star caliber on defense alone, a big positive player.
CP3 was probably a neutral, which is very bad for a star.
Trae was... a saboteur.

Am I in crazytown that we are just going to allow him to make the claim Lebron wasn't good in the Eastern playoffs in 2011 and needed Bosh and Wade to carry him to the Finals? What? Lebron was great leading into the Finals. And yeah he had an awful end to that series. But before that? He was good. Not as great as we would see later in his career, but still very good.

Round 1: 24/11/6 -- far more efficient than both Wade and Bosh who were poor in that regard
Round2 28/8/4 Wade was great this series, but Bosh struggled again, and Lebron played well
Round 3 26/8/7. Bosh finally shows up offensively, but Wade is brutal

And all of those series were over in 5 so the Heat were in zero danger of going home early.

[trex_8063]

cTOV%-15%

Can you share the formula for creation-adjusted TOV% please? Just curious.....

[LukaTheGOAT]

cTOV%-15%

Can you share the formula for creation-adjusted TOV% please? Just curious.....

Sorry, I just get the info from Backpicks. I don't actually know the exact formula.

[Laimbeer]

I get LeBron wasn't great at all during the 2011 playoffs (thank goodness for Wade and Bosh, or LeBron would have probably had another early playoff exit like 2010), but even with him being at his worst that year, it doesn't come close to how awful Trae Young was in the Miami series this year.

Yeah LeBron was very disappointing, but still star caliber on defense alone, a big positive player.
CP3 was probably a neutral, which is very bad for a star.
Trae was... a saboteur.

Am I in crazytown that we are just going to allow him to make the claim Lebron wasn't good in the Eastern playoffs in 2011 and needed Bosh and Wade to carry him to the Finals? What? Lebron was great leading into the Finals. And yeah he had an awful end to that series. But before that? He was good. Not as great as we would see later in his career, but still very good.

Round 1: 24/11/6 -- far more efficient than both Wade and Bosh who were poor in that regard
Round2 28/8/4 Wade was great this series, but Bosh struggled again, and Lebron played well
Round 3 26/8/7. Bosh finally shows up offensively, but Wade is brutal

And all of those series were over in 5 so the Heat were in zero danger of going home early.

LeBron Derangement Syndrome.

[Owly]

CP3's last 5 games might be worse than Trae's 5 game Postseason. CP3 got completely humiliated.

1) Chris Paul is certainly not in his prime (whether Trae is may yet prove to be arguable but presently, I would guess seems fairly likely?)
2) 5 games in a series isn't a five game series. Random cherry picked examples within a series would (a) massively expand the field [any single 7 game player-series becomes ... I don't have the time to do this properly ... over 20 player-game within series 5 game combinations) and make comparisons much tougher.
3) "Humiliated" ... seems emotive and emotional (i.e. regarding someones internal emotional state) language not directly regarding standard of play.
4) I would be happy to look into different tools for small samples but at first glance it doesn't look super close even if for some reason we are doing this version of the comp.
Young's BPM: -8.1
Paul's (reverse engineered by multiplying game BPM by game [decimal] minutes then summing and dividing by the total minutes over the 5 game stretch): -2.610889966
I don't know how much other composites change with changing league norms so I don't know if reverse engineering other box composites off Paul's final and after first round is possible.

[PhiEaglesfan712]

I get LeBron wasn't great at all during the 2011 playoffs (thank goodness for Wade and Bosh, or LeBron would have probably had another early playoff exit like 2010), but even with him being at his worst that year, it doesn't come close to how awful Trae Young was in the Miami series this year.

Yeah LeBron was very disappointing, but still star caliber on defense alone, a big positive player.
CP3 was probably a neutral, which is very bad for a star.
Trae was... a saboteur.

Am I in crazytown that we are just going to allow him to make the claim Lebron wasn't good in the Eastern playoffs in 2011 and needed Bosh and Wade to carry him to the Finals? What? Lebron was great leading into the Finals. And yeah he had an awful end to that series. But before that? He was good. Not as great as we would see later in his career, but still very good.

Round 1: 24/11/6 -- far more efficient than both Wade and Bosh who were poor in that regard
Round2 28/8/4 Wade was great this series, but Bosh struggled again, and Lebron played well
Round 3 26/8/7. Bosh finally shows up offensively, but Wade is brutal

And all of those series were over in 5 so the Heat were in zero danger of going home early.

LeBron's stats may have looked good, but I remember him being too passive at times during that year. In fact, I rank the 2011 postseason the 2nd worst of LeBron's career, with 2010 being worse. LeBron was much more aggressive in the 2007 and 2008 playoffs. If LeBron just played to the level he did in the 2007 and 2008 playoffs in 2011, the Heat would have won the title that year. People forget that 2011 was Wade's last great year and how brilliantly he played in those playoffs.

[prolific passer]

All I said is that Lebron had a bad 2011 finals. Not a bad 2011 finals run. He did eliminate da bulls in 5 after getting blown out in game 1. What did the mavs do differently when Lebron was on Terry at the end of games that the bulls failed to do when Lebron was on Rose at the end of games?