How many rings would Wilt have if he were drafted by Boston?

[coastalmarker99]

snip

I am generally not as high on a lot of the hall-of-famers. However I do think Cousy is arguably a top 20 player all-time, and probably should get more respect for his ability. I think his shooting numbers are deflated for the same reasons as were Russell's -- because of the run-and-gun scheme.

Havlicek and Jones are surefire HOFers, likely top 50 players all-time. They probably compare favorably to Scottie Pippen and Ray Allen (both of whom I am lower on than most). However it is worth noting that at no point in time were all three of Cousy/Jones/Havlicek at their peaks.

Wilt had heart issues in 1963. I am skeptical that season could've been turned around, given I am projecting the same health and conditioning in this hypothetical.

I will admit one potential blind spot of mine is 1971. Wilt wanted to play one more year, and likely would not have joined the ABA for the new 70-71 season, when it was a lot more nascent than it was in 73-74. So it's possible he wins that year.

One other issue I have is, I don't think the Celtics would've succeeded with a dominant center scorer. Wilt was miles better than Ed Macauley, and was a much more talented scorer than Russell. However it demonstrates that Celtics didn't run their offense through a dominant scoring center.

Here is my disconnect with your logic:

Wilt's box actual box score stats->Wilt is better than Russell->Wilt's box score stats on Russell's teams means they'll perform that much better

My belief is:

1967, 1968 (I don't blame Wilt for losing this year like most do, I think the MLK assassination ruined the flow of this series), 1969, 1972, 1973 demonstrate that teams performed better when Wilt was an active facilitator on offense (and not the first option on a per minute basis). So, Wilt in that role would perform best on the Celtics. HOWEVER this is why extrapolating his box score stats onto the Celtics doesn't make sense to me.

The Celtics had enough talent that adding Wilt means they'd win several titles. Maybe more than a handful. But I don't think it would be with Wilt scoring 40 a night. Or even 30.

Maybe I'm wrong. But this is my belief.

Anyhow, would be interested in your thoughts in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2200675

I don't think Wilt under Red ever averages over 32 PPG as he did in real life.

As instead, I see a 1966-'68 Wilt for the entire decade of the 1960s.

Scoring 20-25 PPG and dishing out 6 to 8 APG and then hanging 50+ as needed.

His defence would actually have been better since he wouldn't have had to score 40-50 ppg just to keep his teams competitive.

If anything, I suspect that Chamberlain-led Celtic teams might have routinely won 65-70+ games...and probably would not have been challenged much at all in the post-season.

[ceiling raiser]

I don't think Wilt under Red ever averages over 32 PPG as he did in real life.

As instead, I see a 1966-'68 Wilt for the entire decade of the 1960s.

Scoring 20-25 PPG and dishing out 6 to 8 APG and then hanging 50+ as needed.

His defence would actually have been better since he wouldn't have had to score 40-50 ppg just to keep his teams competitive.

If anything, I suspect that Chamberlain-led Celtic teams might have routinely won 65-70+ games...and probably would not have been challenged much at all in the post-season.

Three notes:

(1) I understand 61-62 wasn't Wilt's choice -- it was by design by McGuire since he felt the only way to win was for Wilt to score 50 a night.

(2) 65-70 games when there were fewer games played per season until 67-68 is very tough.

(3) What sort of box score stats do you think Wilt would achieve each year? Keeping in mind that in Auerbach's system FG% would most likely be lower.

[coastalmarker99]

I don't think Wilt under Red ever averages over 32 PPG as he did in real life.

As instead, I see a 1966-'68 Wilt for the entire decade of the 1960s.

Scoring 20-25 PPG and dishing out 6 to 8 APG and then hanging 50+ as needed.

His defence would actually have been better since he wouldn't have had to score 40-50 ppg just to keep his teams competitive.

If anything, I suspect that Chamberlain-led Celtic teams might have routinely won 65-70+ games...and probably would not have been challenged much at all in the post-season.

Three notes:

(1) I understand 61-62 wasn't Wilt's choice -- it was by design by McGuire since he felt the only way to win was for Wilt to score 50 a night.

(2) 65-70 games when there were fewer games played per season until 67-68 is very tough.

(3) What sort of box score stats do you think Wilt would achieve each year? Keeping in mind that in Auerbach's system FG% would most likely be lower.

Most likely 24 PPG 6 APG and 25RPG on 56 to 60 FG%.

His efficiency would be higher as I think Red would have coached Wilt to stop using the fadeaway as much as he did and to play more physical.


People do forget that Wilt respected Red and Red respected him as well.


Hell Red tried to get him to play for Boston as a 16-year-old.


Auerbach, being Auerbach, knew it was time to recruit Chamberlain.

He would let Wilt serve him drinks and cigars while he was playing poker at night, building a relationship with the young man.

Then he made his move.

“Why don’t you go to Harvard. kid?” he said. “And then I’ll be able to pick you off in the territorial draft for the Celtics.”

"He showed he could do it all," said Boston Celtics President Red Auerbach about Wilt.

"He was such a great scorer, he could get you 50, 60 points like it was nothing.

There were very few players you feared more."

[coastalmarker99]

The thing that is forgotten about the Celtics' success was their culture.

Wilt had to deal with a lot of racism from his own teammates and coaches which is something Russell thankfully never experienced.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1998-01-16-9801170003-story.html

Wilt couldn't even buy a home in San Francisco

https://greenlining.org/blog-category/2013/when-an-nba-star-couldnt-buy-a-home-in-san-francisco/

What he couldn’t do was buy a home in San Francisco’s Golden Gate Heights neighbourhood.

The developer who refused to sell Chamberlain the house told the Chronicle, “I feel interracial mixing of neighbourhoods devalues property.

Negroes tend not to have enough money… Frankly, as a group, I can’t say I like them very much. But individually I like them.”


NBA tried to cover up many assaults, one on Chamberlain when he was punched in the jaw which led to a severe infection

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/original-old-school-tragic-hero/2/

NBA promoters said Wilt was injured by an errant elbow in the game, although most players around the eight-team League figured it was a deliberate shot. We flew to Detroit for a game the next night, and Wilt played despite the injury.

Owner Eddie Gottlieb was quoted in a newspaper story saying Wilt had a foot injury that wasn’t serious enough to keep him from playing, when actually the blow to his face had triggered the bloodstream infection that would keep him out of uniform for three games that season.

Wilt and I talked about it over the years, and he conceded that institutionalized racism had always festered behind the League’s closed doors. Despite what was surely rage and frustration, Wilt never pointed a finger at who attacked him.

[coastalmarker99]

On an exhibition tour one afternoon, we stopped at a Fulton, Mo., eatery for lunch.

The team filled the place, sprawling in booths and taking two seats per man at the counter.

The white owner took his fellow Caucasians' lunch orders, mostly breaded pork sandwiches and mashed potatoes with gravy, as I recall. Then, when he got to Wilt, he said, "The kitchen's closed."

Nobody said a word. Wilt and my other black teammates got up, walked out of the place and got back on the bus.

We remained and ate our pork sandwiches. The incident was never discussed. Implicit was the understanding that that's the way it was in those days.


I just can't imagine the Celtics doing something as cold to Russell as the Warriors did with Wilt.

hell when In October 1961, during the exhibition season, the champion Celtics had been involved in a racial showdown in Lexington, Kentucky.

Boston's black players left town hurriedly before their game against St. Louis after the coffee shop in the team's hotel refused to serve Tom Sanders and Sam Jones.

Celtics owner Walter Brown fumed that the Celtics would never play another exhibition game in the South, or any other place, where they might be embarrassed.

Back in Boston, Russell told newsmen, "I will not play any place again under those circumstances."

One of Boston's white players, Frank Ramsey, who once played at the University of Kentucky, apologized to his black teammates on behalf of the entire state.

"No thinking person in Kentucky," Ramsey said, "is a segregationist."

It's no wonder why Wilt didn't get along with so many of his coaches when they didn't even treat him like a human being.

[coastalmarker99]

If Russell was drafted by the Hawks he would have killed someone as that entire team was incredibly raciest.

It needs to be mentioned that the St. Louis Hawks of the 50's and early were considered the most racist team in league history (that was the "southern" team of its time.


Before the Hawks moved to Atlanta and still held that distinction), which is part of what killed the career of potential star Cleo Hill.

Pettit was the ringleader of that team/franchise, and you don't find a lot of praise for him from black players of his day (particularly Russell).

IIRC the only thing Russell said about him in his first autobiography, after having played against him in 4 of his first 5 Finals, was that "He travelled on every play."


My hypothesis is that Russell would've not been as successful if he didn't play for Boston.


Part of it is due to Auerbach as... Auerbach treated a minority like anyone else, thereby telling the person that he isn't a minority. Race was a very open subject on the Celtics.

We could say things to each other that the outside world probably would find offensive, because we knew and trusted each other.

John Havlicek: Bill was comfortable on the Celtics because he knew that Red was the first coach to draft a black player and that the Celtics were the first team to consistently start five black players. Our roommates were integrated.

Jim Loscutoff: On a lot of teams, the black players went one way, the whites another.

On our team, we made a point of everyone hanging around together.

At such a racially divisive time and in such a racially charged city, this environment created by Red Auerbach was crucial to Russell's success as a player and his ability to withstand the abuses he faced outside the Celtic circle.

[coastalmarker99]

These would be the coaches Russell would play under if he swapped situations with Wilt.

Neil Johnson, I don't think he and Russell would have gotten along with him as Russell knew more about basketball than him.

Frank McGuire, I do think he and Russell would have gotten along as Frank actually treated his black players like human beings.


Bob Feerick, I don't think he would have gotten along with him as Russell knew more about basketball than him and I can imagine Russell's reaction to him begging for plays from Russell as he did with Wilt.


Alex Hannum, I think he would have gotten along with Russell really well as Russell would have respected his basketball IQ.


Dolph schayes I don't know if Russell would have respected him as Schayes was known as an incredibly soft coach around the NBA who was rarely tough on his players, unlike Red and Hannum.


VBK I can not see Russell respecting someone who was an alcoholic and engaged in farting contests with the team.

[coastalmarker99]

If Wilt were drafted by Boston in place of Russell in 1957 and spent his whole career with the Celtics, how many rings would he have won?

Is Russell in the league and where did he go? Wilt without Russell has a real shot at close to 10 rings. Wilt with Russell in the league, not nearly as good a shot. I think Boston is one of the best run franchises but I don't think their talent around Russell relative to other franchises in the league was the reason Boston won 11 rings, it was Russell.

If the two switch places, I think Russell wins a couple with Philly with Arizin/Gola and company early, then doesn't as they move to SF and Thurmond is as bad a fit with Russell as he was with Wilt, then Russell comes to Philly again and wins maybe 2 of 3, then Russell goes to LA and wins 3 of 4 from 69-72 for roughly 7 rings while Wilt wins maybe 5-6 in Boston. Russell's teams frustrate and beat Wilt's consistently when they go head to head in the playoffs while Wilt continues to have the dominant statistics. I'm a big Russell believer.

Without Russell ever coming into the league, Wilt has as good a shot as anyone else ever has of 11 rings from 57-69. He dominated every non-Russell team over his career in the playoffs at an 80%+ series win rate. He just may not get the lucky breaks that even the Russell Celtics had to enjoy to finish with 11 titles.

In the playoffs, Wilt had a winning record of .57.3% against these top players:

Wilt's record vs. opponent:

72.7 Barry

70.6 Thurmond

57.9 Oscar

57.1 Pettit

45.5 (5-6) Schayes

41.2 (7-10) Reed

(Wilt never played Baylor or West in POs.)

Schayes also retired in 1964, so he never played Wilt with his best teams, the 76ers and Lakers.

Also, Reed missed the 1972 Finals (injured), when the Lakers beat Knicks 4-1.

Also here is Wilt (ages 33-36) vs. Kareem (ages 22-25)

1970-73:

RS: 9-8 Wilt > KAJ

PO: 5-6 Wilt < KAJ (1-1 in PO series)

Total: 14-14 Wilt = KAJ



I would say in an NBA without Russell that Wilt most likely comes close to winning 11 titles he may not get there but he would give it a real crack

[coastalmarker99]

Anyone voting that Wilt would win then less than 4 rings on Boston has to be a troll or a massive Wilt hater.

Even if we are being incredibly conservative.


Wilt most likely wins rings in 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1963 1964 1965.

For a total of 8.


You can argue afterwards that Russell then takes control of the decade after Wilt suffers his knee injury


But from 1957 to 1965 I can't see a team putting much up of a fight besides LA who Wilt owned.

As Russell on the Warriors would struggle.


As it took Wilt dropping two 50 point triple-doubles in win or go home games to ensure the Warriors faced the Celtics even in the first place in 1960 and 1962.


And also averaging 38 PPG to beat the Hawks in 1964 who still managed to take the series to seven.

[penbeast0]

If Russell was drafted by the Hawks he would have killed someone as that entire team was incredibly raciest.

It needs to be mentioned that the St. Louis Hawks of the 50's and early were considered the most racist team in league history (that was the "southern" team of its time.


Before the Hawks moved to Atlanta and still held that distinction), which is part of what killed the career of potential star Cleo Hill.

Pettit was the ringleader of that team/franchise, and you don't find a lot of praise for him from black players of his day (particularly Russell).

IIRC the only thing Russell said about him in his first autobiography, after having played against him in 4 of his first 5 Finals, was that "He travelled on every play."


My hypothesis is that Russell would've not been as successful if he didn't play for Boston.


Part of it is due to Auerbach as... Auerbach treated a minority like anyone else, thereby telling the person that he isn't a minority. Race was a very open subject on the Celtics.

We could say things to each other that the outside world probably would find offensive, because we knew and trusted each other.

John Havlicek: Bill was comfortable on the Celtics because he knew that Red was the first coach to draft a black player and that the Celtics were the first team to consistently start five black players. Our roommates were integrated.

Jim Loscutoff: On a lot of teams, the black players went one way, the whites another.

On our team, we made a point of everyone hanging around together.

At such a racially divisive time and in such a racially charged city, this environment created by Red Auerbach was crucial to Russell's success as a player and his ability to withstand the abuses he faced outside the Celtic circle.

I read Lenny Wilkens autobiography and while the situation in St. Louis was indeed one of the most racist in the league, he said that Bob Pettit and Cliff Hagan went out of their way to try to make him feel at home in St. Louis as a rookie. I haven't ever heard specific complaints about either of the St. Louis stars being racist.