Retro POY '96-97 (Voting Complete)

[Silver Bullet]

1. MJ
2. Pippen
3. Malone
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq

Meh - I'm sure there's going to a lotta hue and cry about my vote. But there was only one contender this year. I did the same when the Lakers were unbeatable.
Why Rodman ? Well, he did only two things well, rebound and play suffocating defense. Luckily those were the two biggest needs of the Bulls.

If you replace Rodman with Barkley, do they get better or worse ? I think they'd get substantially worse.

How about Payton ? - I still think they get worse.

Rodman did what he was asked to do as well as any player ever.

The rebound differential between the first and second guy is just flabbergasting - it might be the biggest lead a first position players has ever had on the 2nd guy.

EDIT: And yeah I know he didn't play the whole season.

I'm not even sure this is worth mentioning given your inconsistencies throughout, but you were insistent on punishing Garnett in 08 for minutes played and time missed. Yet here, Shaq misses 31 games and doesn't crack 2000 minutes and he makes the cut?? His advanced stats aren't even that good:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=1997

If no one else has a problem with this I guess it doesn't matter...

As far as Pippen at No. 2, I'll just "unique" does not necessarily mean better. When Sabonis came to Portland he was unique, he wasn't the best though...

What inconsistencies -

I argued against KG when everyone was putting him first over all, I have put Shaq 5th.

I mean, you guys are making a whole lot of fuss over a 5th place vote.

And I don't like Jordan - I'll admit I am biased against him and yet I have him right where he belongs at the top of the list, even though it would be very easy for me to make a case for Malone.

In fact, I did the same when it came to Kobe and Shaq, so if anything I am being consistent.

What's the egregious error in my vote ? Who am I leaving off that definitely belongs there.

[Silver Bullet]

No, everyone has a problem with it. It's just, what can be done now? He's gonna vote, he's gonna vote (in some manner, if not blatantly raising his vote) for his favorite players, or against (in some manner, if not blatantly lowering his vote) his least favorite, and then he'll figure out some logic to make that 'make sense'. We've see this song and dance from him, hopefully when we get into the early 80s there's no one left for him to try and help or hurt and he'll just vote normally.

What's ironic is that he refers to both the 97 Bulls and 08 Celtics as "one of the greatest teams ever." (SRS supports this.) He calls KG and Pip the two best second bananas ever. They are both similar players in terms of defensive prowess, versatility and even the criticism they receive. He thinks Jordan and Rodman were BOTH top 5 players (on a Phil Jackson coached team). Yet those 08 Celtics apparently have one top 5 player (Pierce?) and KG isn't anywhere close to No. 2.

Why do I get the feeling if KG played with Jordan he'd sing his praises but if Pip were the MVP candidate for the 08 Celtics (Kobe's MVP year) he would find a way to not even put him in the top 5?

Anyway, onto the early 80s...

You are pointing out inconsistencies that don't exist.

I had Lebron James, Chris Paul and Tim Duncan, all ahead of KG that year. The only questionable thing was Pierce instead of KG.

It's a lot of crying over two 5th place votes.

[Gongxi]

It's crying over your bizarre implementation of different logic at different times.

You'll have to excuse us if it looks very clear that throughout this project you choose where you rank players first, then apply some 'standard' that explains how you reached that vote later.

[Doctor MJ]

Look. First of all the 5th spot is really not that important, if someone honors an under appreciated player with a 5th place vote, it's not really much of a big deal.

Actually that's exactly the type of thing I've been trying to hammer in to people NOT to do. If people clearly do that, I won't count their vote at all and will consider booting them from the project.

[Silver Bullet]

It's crying over your bizarre implementation of different logic at different times.

You'll have to excuse us if it looks very clear that throughout this project you choose where you rank players first, then apply some 'standard' that explains how you reached that vote later.

hmmmph - I'll update the picks I've made for each of the years and list all my biases and then we can pick this back up.

I disagree - but it's possible there has been some inconsistency on my part between the start of the project to now.

But I don't get why you guys are so sensitive about someone not agreeing with the majority.

[An Unbiased Fan]

#1 Malone
#2 MJ

Both were All-NBA/All-D 1st (with Malone winning MVP), and both led their teams to the Finals where the Bulls took it in 6. BUT, I don't feel beating the Jazz in the Finals outwieghs the better RS Malone had. That whole 97' Finals were kinda ugly really, and close in almost every game.

If Malone had faltered and lost in the earlier rounds, then MJ would be #1, but I can't penalize Malone for losing in 6 to the better team.

#3 Grant Hill - Was about to grab the torch from MJ this year. Hill's overall game & skillset was crazy. And took Detroit to 54 wins with Lindsey Hunter & an OLD Dumars as his supporting cast.

#4 Hakeem - Last great year
#5 Payton

How did Malone have a better regular season?

Malone shot 55% FG/60 TS%
MJ shot 48.6% FG/56.7 TS%
Malone was the better scorer that year.

Malone had 9.9 rpg
MJ had 5.9 rpg
Now this is an obvious advantage for Malone because he's a PF, but Malone also had better assisits numbers(though MJ was in the tri, and that limits his numbers).....

Malone had 4.5 apg
MJ had 4.3 apg

Both were All-NBA/All-D 1st team, but Malone was the MVP. So I would say he had the better regular season.

[Gongxi]

Err...I guess that's one way to look at it.

[Baller 24]

Shouldn't the TS% also be an obvious for Malone since he's too a forward that's limited to play within his range? A 56.7 TS% is absolutely amazing for a 2-guard that has the volume number of shot attempts as Jordan.

[Dr Positivity]

My beef with Malone is it's not just that he got outplayed (like 98), but the way it historically wow way it happened.

Game 1 Malone misses 2 FTs after "the Mailman don't deliver on Sundays", Jordan comes back and hits Game winning shot

Game 5 Jordan Flu Game, Malone 1 for 6 in the 2nd half

Jordan took a huge dump on Karl in those two games. Just a huge one.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Shouldn't the TS% also be an obvious for Malone since he's too a forward that's limited to play within his range? A 56.7 TS% is absolutely amazing for a 2-guard that has the volume number of shot attempts as Jordan.

I agree that bigs have a TS% advantage, but I would still say Malone was the better scorer relative to their differing postions this year.

I would also point out that in the late 00's threads, a 56.7 TS% 2-guard would have been called a "volume scorer" by some.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Grant Hill
5. Scottie Pippen

[An Unbiased Fan]

My beef with Malone is it's not just that he got outplayed (like 98), but the way it historically wow way it happened.

Game 1 Malone misses 2 FTs after "the Mailman don't deliver on Sundays", Jordan comes back and hits Game winning shot

Game 5 Jordan Flu Game, Malone 1 for 6 in the 2nd half

Jordan took a huge dump on Karl in those two games. Just a huge one.

Game 1 - Malone had 23/15. Yes he choked on the line, but it's not like he sucked all game.

Game 5 - Malone was in foul trouble all game long. I actually think Rodman was the unsung hero of this game, because he was getting into Malone's head.

Even still, the Bulls were the better team and had HCA. The Jazz were in ever game, and if the ball bounces differently, who knows. I didn't think Malone was outplayed by MJ that much in the 97' Finals. MJ himself shot poorly in a few of the games, and his teammates stepped up huge.

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hill
4. Hakeem
5. Pippen

So the big thing that's really starting to strike me is how heavily people (myself included) weigh advanced stat fluctuations in the playoffs as part of a narrative. "Hakeem sacrificed in the regular season but dominated in the playoffs". Take a look at the raw stats for him both regular seasons and playoffs and you'll see there really wasn't much of a difference. Add on top of that that the addition of Barkley really shouldn't have made that much of a difference in the regular season since he missed so much time, and that Hakeem scored a lot on Utah in the regular season. People are basically Hakeem up so hard because he had 1 big playoff series against a team he had an unusual matchup advantage and still lost, and a much better PER.

Now, PER is based on real things. That Hakeem had such a high TS% in the playoffs is great. However when it doesn't come with a sizable volume increase, you've got to be careful with how you let it shape your view of what happened.

Still got him in my top 5 though.

Honorable Mention:

Payton
Ewing
Rice - Funny how the 3 point rule change affected his career.
Tim Bug
Stockton

Not making the cut Shaq - Missed a ton a time, Lakers don't improve significantly. I don't see how you can think he's having top 5 impact this year.

[Doctor MJ]

From JB:

1996-1997

1. M.Jordan - Won Finals MVP (29.5 PER in the finals), finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was 2nd in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.

2. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Won League MVP, 1st in Season PER and 2nd in Win Shares. Was 5th in Playoff Win Shares.

3. Grant Hill - Finished 3rd in MVP voting (All NBA First Team), Made All NBA 1st team and was 3rd in PER in the season and 3rd in WS.

4. Hakeem - Finished 7th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 1st Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

5. Gary Payton - 2nd team All NBA and 1st Team Defense

HM: Stockton (2nd in Playoff Win Shares, 15th in MVP voting), Scottie Pippen (2nd team All NBA and 1st Team Defense - 5th in playoff WS, 11th in MVP voting), Shaq (9th in MVP, 2nd in Playoff PER), Rice (5th in MVP), T.Hardaway (4th in MVP), Alonzo Mourning (12th in MVP voting)

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

If you make any change after right now, make clear what that change is.

[Optimism Prime]

My vote:

1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hill
4. Hakeem
5. Pippen

So the big thing that's really starting to strike me is how heavily people (myself included) weigh advanced stat fluctuations in the playoffs as part of a narrative. "Hakeem sacrificed in the regular season but dominated in the playoffs". Take a look at the raw stats for him both regular seasons and playoffs and you'll see there really wasn't much of a difference. Add on top of that that the addition of Barkley really shouldn't have made that much of a difference in the regular season since he missed so much time, and that Hakeem scored a lot on Utah in the regular season. People are basically Hakeem up so hard because he had 1 big playoff series against a team he had an unusual matchup advantage and still lost, and a much better PER.

Now, PER is based on real things. That Hakeem had such a high TS% in the playoffs is great. However when it doesn't come with a sizable volume increase, you've got to be careful with how you let it shape your view of what happened.

Still got him in my top 5 though.

Honorable Mention:

Payton
Ewing
Rice - Funny how the 3 point rule change affected his career.
Tim Bug
Stockton

Not making the cut Shaq - Missed a ton a time, Lakers don't improve significantly. I don't see how you can think he's having top 5 impact this year.

Hakeem and Barkley had the same total number of rebounds in the RS... if we're criticizing Dream for lower stats, remember there's a total number of rebounds one team can get, and adding a dominant force on the glass will naturally decrease the number of boards Hakeem gets. The three years before this, the Rockets were outrebounded... this year, they had the advantage.

[Doctor MJ]

'08-09 Results

Code: Select all

Player              1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan    20   1   0   0   0 207   0.986
2. Karl Malone        1  17   3   0   0 144   0.686
3. Hakeem Olajuwon    0   2   7   9   2  78   0.371
4. Grant Hill         0   0  10   4   3  65   0.310
5. Scottie Pippen     0   1   0   4   6  25   0.119
6. Gary Payton        0   0   0   1   4   7   0.033
   Patrick Ewing      0   0   0   2   1   7   0.033
8. Shaquille O'Neal   0   0   0   1   3   6   0.029
9. John Stockton      0   0   1   0   0   5   0.024
10. Anfernee Hardaway 0   0   0   0   1   1   0.005
    Glen Rice         0   0   0   0   1   1   0.005


[Silver Bullet]

Just so everybody sees this -

My biases :

For:
Steve Nash
Shaquille O Neal
Kobe Bryant
Deron Williams
David Robinson
Scottie Pippen

Against
Hakeem Olajuwon
Micheal Jordan
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul

2008-09
1. Lebron James (1)
2. Kobe Bryant (2)
3. Tim Duncan (NR)
4. Dwight Howard (5)
5. Chris Paul (4)

2007-08
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Lebron James
3. Chris Paul
4. Tim Duncan
5. Paul Pierce

2006-07
1. Steve Nash
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Tim Duncan
5. Lebron James

2005-06
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Steve Nash
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Lebron James

2004-05
1.Steve Nash
2. Shaq
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Ray Allen
5. Tim Duncan

2003-04
1.KG
2. Kobe
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. McGrady

2002-03
1.Duncan
2. Kobe
3. Shaq
4. T-Mac
5. KG

2001-02
1.Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Jason Kidd

2000-01
1.Shaq
2. Kobe
3. Duncan
4. Carter
5. Iverson

1999-00
1.Shaq
2. Iverson
3. Mourning
4. Duncan
5. Reggie Miller

1998-99
1.Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Malone
4. Robinson
5. Iverson

1997-98
1. Karl Malone
2. Micheal Jordan
3. Shaq
4. David Robinson
5. Gary Payton

1996-97
1. MJ
2. Pippen
3. Malone
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq

[ElGee]

#1 Malone
#2 MJ

Both were All-NBA/All-D 1st (with Malone winning MVP), and both led their teams to the Finals where the Bulls took it in 6. BUT, I don't feel beating the Jazz in the Finals outwieghs the better RS Malone had. That whole 97' Finals were kinda ugly really, and close in almost every game.

If Malone had faltered and lost in the earlier rounds, then MJ would be #1, but I can't penalize Malone for losing in 6 to the better team.

#3 Grant Hill - Was about to grab the torch from MJ this year. Hill's overall game & skillset was crazy. And took Detroit to 54 wins with Lindsey Hunter & an OLD Dumars as his supporting cast.

#4 Hakeem - Last great year
#5 Payton

How did Malone have a better regular season?

Malone shot 55% FG/60 TS%
MJ shot 48.6% FG/56.7 TS%
Malone was the better scorer that year.

Malone had 9.9 rpg
MJ had 5.9 rpg
Now this is an obvious advantage for Malone because he's a PF, but Malone also had better assisits numbers(though MJ was in the tri, and that limits his numbers).....

Malone had 4.5 apg
MJ had 4.3 apg

Both were All-NBA/All-D 1st team, but Malone was the MVP. So I would say he had the better regular season.

Well, that doesn't seem to be the same approach to player evaluation you were using a few seasons ago - this is an extremely raw summary of big-3 box score stats.

Furthermore, it's the exact OPPOSITE logic you used in 2009:

Regular Season:

1) Lebron - MVP, All-NBA/All-D(1st), Best record overall
2) Kobe - MVP runner-up, All-NBA/All-D(1st), Best record in West
3) Wade - All-NBA(1st)
4) Dwight - All-NBA/All-D(1st), DPOY
5) Paul - All-NBA(2nd)/All-D(1st)

-Lebron was a monster statwise. He made both the All-NBA & All-D 1st teams. He was the runaway MVP by leading his team to the best record.

-Kobe had a stellar season, and made the All-NBA/All-D 1st teams. He was the MVP runner-up and led LA to the best record in the West.

1) Kobe - Finals MVP, Led team to 3 straight series wins against 50+ win teams
2) Lebron - off the charts stats
3) Dwight
4) Melo
5) Rondo

-Kobe's run was tremendous. When LA needed a win, Kobe came through. His leadership and production all make his 30/5/5 performance the best in the playoffs.

-Lebron was great in the 1st 2 rounds, but I do factor in the competition. Losing to a Magic without their all-star PG, and with HCA is a blackmark.

Final rankings:

1) Kobe
2) Lebron
3) Dwight
4) Wade
5) Melo

Kobe did whatever LA needed to win the title. whether it was to score 40, or to D up Billups or Melo, Kobe did it. From day 1 he was on a mission, and delivered the stats and ring. He was the MVP runner, and Finals MVP. Lebron had better stats, but when put in context of the systems run by LA and Cle, both were comaprable. Not making the Finals despite HCA and with a healthy team puts Bron at #2 for me. The leadership factor was missing with him in the playoffs.

2009 LeBron had more points, rebounds and assists per game (not to mention advanced statistical dominance). He also won the MVP and finished all-nba 1st and all-nba D...

[ElGee]

SB - your concept of bias is "different perception than the norm." Only that is not the definition of bias.

Furthermore, it's perplexing that you know you have outlying opinions but don't begin by explaining them. That's an issue I'd take with anyone in this project. Gongxi - who I don't always agree with btw - has taken a number of outlying stances. He starts his process by defending that position. It's never some new, arbitrary criteria.

When someone swoops in at the end and says something radically different than the group without explanation, I think it challenges the spirit of the project.

And no, I don't think "he had more points, rebounds and assists" is a solid explanation for why someone would rank one player over another because that isn't WHY he's ranking him that way in the first place. Just like I don't think you woke up on July 1, 2008 and decided "Kevin Garnett definitely did not have a top 5 NBA season BECAUSE he didn't play 2400 minutes." I don't think - jeez, I hope - anyone in this projects checks those stats and FROM THEM determines who the best NBA players are.