Retro POY '91-92 (Voting Complete)

[lorak]

Jordan, Malone, Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing....again, sorry to Robinson. I'm not a fan, and I don't like stats too much, but even I had to pay attention to those defensive numbers. Truly amazing.

Barkley is getting underrated here. He did his thing; his teammates didn't. Same with Hakeem.

MJ is going number one. This is still just about his peak imo. Let's see....Malone over Drexler. Drexler BARELY over Ewing. I actually like Ewing in the playoffs. I just like Clyde a little more, mainly due to his greater team success. It really does come down to that sort of tiebreaker for me. I think prime Drexler and prime Ewing are very, very close as players, so....

Now, where do Hakeem and Barkley come into play? I'll take Hakeem over Barkley this year. Dream was playing top2 defense ever at this point, with very good offense.

To be honest, I don't see why Hakeem can't be ranked at number two. Hell, I think Sir Charles could be ranked at number four. Charles wasn't better than Malone, but he may have been better than Ewing and Drexler.

So what to do? Should I just put Hakeem at number five and be content with moving on to the next year? Or do I go with my gut and put two players in my top five who most think shouldn't (mainly due to lack of team success)?

**** it. I'm going to put them in. This whole thing has been about judging the individual. My criteria dictates to me that I need to put these two players in. I don't feel this should be one of those times where I allow for different criteria just to make my decision easier or not get my final ranking bashed (which I understand will happen).

Final Vote:

Michael Jordan
Karl Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler

Honorable Mention: Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen, Kevin Johnson (after reading about him this season and looking at the numbers, he does deserve this...excellent season by KJ)

Regret he was injured: David Robinson. Historic season defensively.

I ended up putting Malone over Dream because I feel this is merely prime Hakeem, while this may be peak Malone (not sure exactly what Malone's peak is....too damn consistent). So they are close enough as players where Malone's vast advantages in other areas boosts him ahead.

Hakeem and Barkley above Robinson?! How is that possible? Olajuwon played almost as many games as Robinson (2 more), but had worse stats and were slightly worse defender. Barkley also had worse stats than Robinson and was much more worse defender (and also didn't played that much more games that Robinson - 7).

[lorak]

I haven't read all the arguments for David Robinson yet, but what's the pass on him again? Tim Duncan was off of most lists because he couldn't finish the '00 season and play in the playoffs, why does Robinson get a free pass?

KG in 2005 was on most list despite he missed playoffs.

And argument for Robinson is that in 1992 he was as good defensively as possible:
68 games with Robinson: Spurs 102.3 DRtg (that's better than Knicks defense)
14 games without Robinson: Spurs 111.4 DRtg (and 119.6 in 3 playoff games)
That's 9.1 difference, that's better results than Hakeem that year (Olajuwon also was amazing defender, byt just slightly worse than Robinson in 1992).

[tha_rock220]

1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Karl Malone
4. Clyde Drexler
5. John Stockton

[sp6r=underrated]

Time to vote. I do like to throw this out there occasionally that the criteria I use to base my vote is influenced by what other people use. For example a few of my early ballots/suggestions would be different because I didn't realize how much missing the PO was being considered by others. I'm not as harsh as sum who will not even consider people who missed the PO but I do deduct a lot more than I use to.

My ballot is not necessarily who I think were the five "best" players. RPOY =/= "pure best player in NBA."

1992 is in a negative way in outlier for this time period with regards to this project.

1. Jordan: It is understandable that not much has been said about Jordan in this thread based on his play. A secretariat level performance.
2. Malone: PS included this was his best season. He was easily the best player in the POR series. This was the rare year Malone fully brought it in the PS. Robinson has gotten slaughtered, mostly deservedly for his play in HTH, but Malone has skated by despite his own poor shooting.
3. Drexler: I'm not at all convinced he belongs this high, but I do take great stock in what people who were around and aware at the time thought. They did think highly of him and I can't justify having others pass him
4. Ewing: I'm not big on having him this high. Riley did make masterful use of his defensive ability, and as J23F said he still was more of an interior player at this point (I think 95 is when he completed the transition to a jump shooting big). His play in the Chicago series was very erratic. He had great start to the series, but had some really bad moments at the end of game 3 when he lost his composure. Then his play was mostly poor. Still, my opening paragraph explains why he is here.

Some people who I considered here

Olajuwon: We only have the RS to base a vote on here. That isn't good for Olajuwon in a comparison with Robinson, who was the better RS performer. Furthermore, there is a drop off in Olajuwon's passing skills from 93 and scoring ability. I know the Olajuwon crowd loves pretending that Hakeem in 90 was no different than in 93. That is BS.

Barkley

Robinson: Great RS and best defender in NBA, but I do consider and think you have to consider the high likelihood that he would not have sustained that level of play in the PS.

Price: I'm not a big fan the Daugherty love here. Price was the best player on those Cleveland teams. Great RS and PS.

Stockton: destroyed by Porter knocks him out of consideration. 10x worse than what happened to Robinson against Olajuwon. I brought him up earlier to illustrate this point. We are in the middle of his big run numbers wise and there hasn't ever been a consensus that he was ever top 5 in the league. Now, RPOY =/= "best player" though that is a big component. Furthermore, the competition year to year isn't the same, though it is closer than we pretend. Thus, I hope people consider when they are making all time lists that Stockton's impact wasn't as large (or at least this consensus view) as his numbers suggest and avoid placing him over people just because of assist totals.

BTW,the Jazz success during these years is quite lower than what you would expect if you had two real top 30 players playing together. I don't think the quality of the Jazz roster 3-12 or coaching is a excuse for them being outliers here

The reason why I used the 1988-1995 window is that this is the time period Stockton fans were pointing to when many of us criticized his peak and his dominance. During these years he was playing with Karl Malone who was playing at a top 20 all time level. Their peaks nearly perfectly overlapped. While Malone was slightly more dominant in the late 90s he was still playing at an elite level

If Stockton really was a top 30 player all time the Jazz should have accomplished a lot more. Here are the Jazz stats from this era.

53 wins per season
4 First round exits
2 Semi-finals exits
2 conference final appearances.

I’m going to use the realgm top 100 list (http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... &sk=t&sd=a) to prove my point about what typically happens when two top 30 players play together. I’m going to ignore seasons when one of the player was clearly past his peak (I’ll use MVP voting, All NBA teams as criteria here). To qualify both players must have made the top 30.

The beginning season will be when both players either made an all/NBA team or received MVP votes. The end of their run together will be considered the last season for one player to receive MVP votes or All-NBA selections.

I will not address injuries in this comparison or seasons when an all time great player returns to the NBA after playing minor league baseball out of grief for his father‘s death or because David Stern secretly suspended that player for gambling. I also will treat seasons were the top 30 player was acquired in a trade as if the top 30 player played there for the entire season. This actually favors the Jazz because many of these players had seasons were 1 player was injured during the playoffs.

I’ll also try to identify seasons in which their was three or more top 30 players on the roster based on the above criteria. Also seasons are identified by the final year. Example 1985/1986 will be called the 1986 season. I round up or down on the win total. For the lockout season I will project out the won-loss total to an 82 game schedule.

The criteria above is not perfect obviously but it does make the comparison objective.

1. Michael Jordan played with one player ranked in the top 30, Scottie Pippen based on All-NBA teams and MVP voting for 6 seasons. During those years the bulls won 5 championships. The Bulls won an average of 62 games.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He played with two top 25 players when he was still at or near his peak: a post-prime Oscar Robertson and a pre-prime/prime Magic Johnson. His teams won 4 championships. The Bucks during the one season Oscar made an All-NBA team or received MVP votes won 66 games and a title.

From 1981-1986 he played with Magic. 1981 was the beginning run for them as that was the first year Magic received MVP votes and 1986 was the last year Kareem ever made an All-NBA team or received MVP votes. The Lakers won 2 Championships and made the finals two other times. LA won an average of just under 58 wins a season.

3. Bill Russell played with two top 30 player all time. Bob Cousy for 7 full seasons and John Havlicek for seven full seasons.

The beginning season of the Russell Cousy combo was 1957 and ended after 1962 with the arrival of Havlicek. The Celtics won 5 championships in 6 years and an average of 54 games.

The Russell/Cousy/Havlicek trio won a championship and 58 games.

The beginning season of Russell/Havlicek was 1964 when Cousy left and the ending season was 1969 when Russell retired. The Celtics won 6 championships and an average of 56 games.

4. Wilt Chamberlain played with two top 30 players: Jerry West and Elgin Baylor. In 1969 both West and Baylor were top 30 players all time. From 1970 to 1973 he played with Jerry West.

The Chamberlain/West/Baylor trio played for a Laker team in 1969 that won 55 games and lost in the finals.

The Lakers averaged 56 wins over the 4 seasons of the West/Chamberlain combination. They won 1 championship and made the finals three time

5. Magic Johnson (discussed in the Jabbar paragraph)

6. Larry Bird never played with a player in the top 30.

7. Hakeem Olajuwon had two teammate in the top 30: Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley. The 1995 season was the last year Clyde won make an All-NBA team/receive MVP votes. The rockets won 47 games and an NBA championship

Olajuwon and Barkley played 1 season together when Barkley was a top 30 player all time. The rockets won 57 games and were eliminated in the WCF.

8. Shaquille O’Neal played with one top 30 teammate: pre-prime Kobe Bryant. They won three
championships and made the finals 4 times together during the 6 seasons they spent together. The lakers won an average of 56 wins.

9. Tim Duncan played with one top 30 player: David Robinson. They played together from 1998-2001. 2001 was the last season the admiral made an all-NBA team/received MVP votes. They won one championship and averaged 57 wins a season

10. Julius Erving during his NBA career played with one top 30 player, Moses Malone. They played together as top 30 players from 1983 which was when Malone was acquired to 1985 which was the last season Erving received MVP votes. They won 1 championship and averaged 58 wins.

11. Jerry West played with two top 30 players Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor. The Chamberlain combination is discussed in the Chamberlain paragraph. West and Baylor played eight seasons together from 1961 to 1968. The lakers averaged 46 wins. The Lakers made the finals 5 times.

12. Oscar Robertson played a total of one season when he still received mvp votes or made an all nba team. The Bucks that year won the title and 66 games.

13. Moses Malone played with two top 30 players: Julius Erving and Charles Barkley. Erving is discussed in the Malone section. In 1986 Barkley made his first All-NBA team. The 76ers won 54 games.

14. John Havlicek is discussed in Russell paragraph

15. Karl Malone (Discussed above)

16. Bob Pettit did not play with a top 30 player.

17. David Robinson is discussed in the Tim Duncan section.

18. Kobe Bryant is discussed in the Shaq section.

19. Walt Frazier did not play with a top 30 player.

20. Kevin Garnett did not play with a top 30 player.

21. Elgin Baylor is discussed in the Chamberlain and West paragraphs.

22. George Mikan did not play with a top 30 player.

23. Charles Barkley is discussed in the Erving Malone sections.

24. Rick Barry did not play with a top 30 player.

25. Isiah Thomas did not play with a top 30 player.

26. Scottie Pippen is discussed in the Jordan section.

27. John Stockton is discussed above.

28. Patrick Ewing did not play with a top 30 player.

29. Bob Cousy is discussed in the Russell section.

30. Clyde Drexler is discussed in the Olajuwon section.

TOP 30 Combinations
1. Jordan/Pippen: 5 Championships in 6 seasons. Average win total 62
2. Jabbar/Robertson: 1 Championship in 1 season. Average win total: 66 wins
3. Jabbar/Magic: 2 Championships and 4 final appearances in 6 seasons. Average win total: 58 wins
4. Russell/Cousy: 5 championships and 6 final appearances in 6 seasons. Average win total: 54 wins
5. Russell/Cousy/Havlicek : 1 championship in 1 season. Win total: 58
6. Russell/Havlicek: 5 Championships in 6 seasons. Average win total 56 wins
7. Chamberlain/West/Baylor: 1 final appearance in 1 season. Average win total: 55 wins
8. Chamberlain/West: 1 Championship and 3 final appearances in 4 seasons. Average win total: 56 wins
9. Olajuwon/Drexler 1 Championship in 1 season. 47 Wins
10. Olajuwon/Barkley: No final appearances in 1 season. 57 Wins
11. O’Neal/Bryant: 3 Championships and 4 final appearances in 6 seasons. Average win total: 56 wins
12. Duncan/Robinson: 1 Championship in 4 seasons. Average win total: 57 wins
13. West/Baylor: 5 final appearances in 8 seasons. Average win total: 46 wins
14. Erving/M. Malone: 1 championship in 3 seasons. Average win total: 58 wins
15. M. Malone/Barkley: No final appearances in 1 season. Win total 54

Look at the result. There have been 15 different combination of top 30 players. 11 of those teams won championships. The West Baylor combo made the finals 5 times. The Chamberlain/West/Baylor made the finals and lost in a seventh game. Olajuwon/Barkley and M. Malone/Barkley only had one season to work together.

The vast majority of these combinations had a much smaller window of opportunity than the Jazz did during Stockton’s peak. Furthermore, a lot of these players had peaks that did not overlap nearly as well as Malone/Stockton.

In short, Stockton fans should stop trying to claim he was a dominate player and screaming about his stats from the late 80s to early 90s. The Jazz success rate during the time period when Stockton was allegedly at his peak is far short of the results you typically see when two top 30 players are playing together.

So I went with
5. Hakeem: no real confidence in this vote and you could plug in any of those other guys and it would be fine

[Optimism Prime]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Clyde Drexler
3. Karl Malone
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Kevin Johnson

[drza]

I haven't read all the arguments for David Robinson yet, but what's the pass on him again? Tim Duncan was off of most lists because he couldn't finish the '00 season and play in the playoffs, why does Robinson get a free pass?

I've been looking back through my votes, and as far as I can tell I've been penalizing players a spot or two when they got hurt at the wrong time and/or using it as a tie-breaker. The only year I completely left a player off was Duncan in 2000, and in hindsight my feeling is more that if I could do it again I wouldn't have left him off as opposed to feeling like I should compound that decision moving forward.

And the clear difference between Duncan in 2000 and Robinson in '92 is that Duncan produced comparably to the players that I eventually voted in front of him, and then had the injury as a negative tie-breaker (the only exception maybe being Kobe, who I put 5th, and likely wasn't as good as Duncan). Robinson, on the other hand, was producing solidly more than all of his competition except for Jordan. For him, the injury penalty only brings him back down to the level of his other competition for this vote.

I'm still undecided as to my final vote, but Robinson is definitely still in the mix for me, along with Malone, Olajuwon, Drexler, Barkley, Pippen and Ewing.

[lorak]

So I went with
5. Hakeem: no real confidence in this vote and you could plug in any of those other guys and it would be fine

Could you explain why? He played only 2 games more than Robinson, was slightly worse defender than Robinson and stats shows that Robinson was better offensive player. So why Hakeem? What he did in 1992 that he's higher than Admiral?

[ElGee]

My 1992 POY Ballot:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. Patrick Ewing
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Scottie Pippen

[jicama]

An arbitrary scale on the rating system, but it should put players in the right order.

Code: Select all

rating  player  season  playoff
39.7    Jordan   20.6    6.4
30.3    Malone   18.3    4.0
27.8    Pippen   15.3    4.2
27.6    Drexler  14.7    4.3
24.4    Ewing    17.2    2.4

22.5    Stockton 15.0    2.5



The rating is just the season number + 3X the playoffs.

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Drexler
4. Robinson
5. Ewing

[drza]

I guess it's time to vote. Off the bat let me say that I'm grossly unsatisfied by this year, because I have to either vote in a way that I don't believe or else vote to my beliefs but arguably counter to the way that it feels like I "should". Neither approach leaves me satisfied.

By my beliefs, mixing my memories with the numbers I'd be leaning towards Jordan, Robinson, Olajuwon, Malone then Pippen with Drexler, Ewing, and Barkley as honorable mentions. Like always I bemoan the lack of advanced stats outside of PER and Win Shares, both of which favor efficient scorers but don't cover the other aspects of the game to my satisfaction, but when you factor in how Dream, DRob and Malone graded out statistically with the not-as-well-measured defensive impacts of Dream and Robinson in iconic years, that confirms (to me) my memories of the time when I believed them both to be better and more productive than Malone. I think that Drexler was more Pippen than Jordan, and that's the reason that the Finals looked like they did with Pippen's defense ending up as the more valuable skill between them. I think Ewing and his defensive impact could also arguably go above both Drexler and Pippen, and that Barkley was a great player on a bad team but that his lack of defense (that doesn't show up so much in the stats) doesn't give him the boost that the others get.

But.

Where does one draw the line between "subjective and/or biased" and "this is my opinion based upon my how I interpret the data"? The latter is a good thing, and what I believe this project wants, whereas the former is a bad thing. The problem is that in many ways, the former and latter are synonyms based upon where you stand on the debate. For example, I've never thought that Malone was as good as his box score stats indicate. I think that he was great as a finisher, good as a rebounder, and good as a 1-on-1 defender when he could be physical. But he was never the BEST scorer in the league, his defense and rebounding weren't enough to push him into greatness without the scoring, and his other areas (i.e. passing, help defense) were just reasonable. I see him as kind of a rich-man's hybrid of peak Amare Stoudemire and Charles Oakley that never got hurt and got to play in a system and with a point guard that maximized his output for 15 years. One of the great, unique players in NBA history? Absolutely. But the best-of-the-best? No, he never was. I personally believe that if he had played his career in this era with more exposure, better advanced stats, and forums like these for basketball nerds to really take apart a player's game that he would be more on the Dwight Howard level (among current players) than the LeBron level on a year-to-year basis. Now, these are my beliefs, and I have both a rationale and some objective data with which to make them...but I definitely don't have any kind of exhaustive quantitative support and my counter-arguments rely upon my own interpretation...is it educated analysis or subjective bias? Do I "not like" Malone because I didn't think he was as good as his reputation based upon how I view the game, or am I not valuing his contributions because I "don't like" his game?

Which brings us back to this year's vote. Based upon the arguments in this thread, which are built upon the trends from the project so far, I should be choosing between Malone and Drexler for my 2nd slot. Both have good statistical resumes (for the stats that are available) and had more team success, and neither got injured. So if I vote the way it seems as though the project is dictating that I "should", then I'd go Jordan, Malone, Drexler, Ewing, and my choice between Pippen, Olajuwon, or Robinson in my 5th slot. If I vote this way there would be no controversy, and in the end it might even help my "credibility" in this project which has gotten strained by the fact that I believe Garnett to be better than most of you did (and Nash not as good) in the 2000s and I dared to strenuously argue my reasoning for it. Even now, 10 - 15 threads later, I still find myself reading passive-aggressive shots that folks take at me (and a few others) about our opinions not matching everyone else's standards. The fallout from that makes me feel like I should just be a good soldier here, not rock the boat anymore, and let everyone else settle into a mindset that says if someone else disagrees with their interpretations it must be because they're biased regardless of the quality of their supporting arguments. In fact, before I started this book of a post, I was leaning towards being that good soldier. But after writing all this out, forget it, I'm feeling militant. I'm going to vote based upon my beliefs for this year, and if there are consequences I guess it is what it is.

Final vote:
1) Jordan
2) Robinson (would penalize him a slot for the missed games, but my #3 missed just as many)
3) Olajuwon (total package I just think he was better and did more than Malone individually)
4) Karl Malone
5) Scottie Pippen (could easily have gone Ewing or Drexler here)

[CellarDoor]

DRob and Hakeem just missed too much time/teams didn't do well enough to be in my top 5.

1. Michael
2. Malone
3. Ewing
4. Drexler
5. Pippen

HM: KJ, Admiral, Dream

[Dr Positivity]

I haven't read all the arguments for David Robinson yet, but what's the pass on him again? Tim Duncan was off of most lists because he couldn't finish the '00 season and play in the playoffs, why does Robinson get a free pass?

KG in 2005 was on most list despite he missed playoffs.

The difference is KG would've been available in the playoffs if they made it. Whereas Drob was injured.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm changing my vote to:

1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Drexler
4. Ewing
5. Pippen

[ronnymac2]

Hakeem and Barkley above Robinson?! How is that possible? Olajuwon played almost as many games as Robinson (2 more), but had worse stats and were slightly worse defender. Barkley also had worse stats than Robinson and was much more worse defender (and also didn't played that much more games that Robinson - 7).

Robinson had an injury that caused him to miss the playoffs. Hakeem and Charles only missed the playoffs because their teams sucked. Throughout this whole project, I've always docked a player major points for missing the playoffs due to injury when his team was there. I've also allowed players whose teams didn't make the playoffs into my top five- if they were good enough players.

Unfortunately for me, this year had all of it, making my vote look unorthodox. haha

[ronnymac2]

Some people who I considered here

Olajuwon: We only have the RS to base a vote on here. That isn't good for Olajuwon in a comparison with Robinson, who was the better RS performer. Furthermore, there is a drop off in Olajuwon's passing skills from 93 and scoring ability. I know the Olajuwon crowd loves pretending that Hakeem in 90 was no different than in 93. That is BS.

Well how much worse was he in 92 compared to 93?

How could one guy be insanely good in his second, third, and fourth years, and then have a bunch of down years, before peaking into a titan of a player? The dude manhandled Magic's Showtime and Bird's Celtics individually before his peak, and yet he isn't the same player?

I can buy that his game steadily improved (and that his development could be unorthdox since he learned basketball later in life than most NBA players), including the technical aspects of passing and reading defenses. But the extent to which the anti-Hakeem group emphasizes this is too large in degree to logically work.

[lorak]

Robinson had an injury that caused him to miss the playoffs. Hakeem and Charles only missed the playoffs because their teams sucked.

So?
Barkley and Hakeem could play in PS if their teams would be good enough?
I have been thinking that we should make our judgments based on what actually happened, not on what could happened... I guess I was wrong and this project is about “what if”.

[ronnymac2]

^^^What? That's not a "what if". In reality, the seasons of Hakeem and Barkley ended because their teammates sucked. Robinson ended because he was injured. I'm docking Robinson just like I have been for everybody in his situation.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I would think a player who made the PS, but got hurt, would be regarded more highly than a player who couldn't take his team to the PS while healthy.

[lorak]

^^^What? That's not a "what if". In reality, the seasons of Hakeem and Barkley ended because their teammates sucked. Robinson ended because he was injured. I'm docking Robinson just like I have been for everybody in his situation.

Rality – all three of them didn’t play in PS in 1992. In regular season Robinson was the best of them.
What if – you give credit to Barkley and Hakeem because they were healthy so you assume they could play in PS. Sure, they could, but reality was that they didn’t play. Just like Robinson.