Retro POY '67-68 (Voting Complete)

[bastillon]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Sportsman Of The Year Bill Russell

[bastillon]

so what happened when Oscar went down ? I'm curious.

bastillon, chill a bit man. You've been jumping all over people since you began participating again.

sorry about that, Doc. it was an honest question, though. it just may have seemed like I'm being aggressive but given language barriers (not native english speaker), I can't always put my words "on the paper".

I just... honestly don't understand the love of boxscore. sometimes I wonder if there are other factors included at all. I thought this project was to catch all the details and measure intangibles, not trying to be JB and just look at boxscore.

[Doctor MJ]

sorry about that, Doc. it was an honest question, though. it just may have seemed like I'm being aggressive but given language barriers (not native english speaker), I can't always put my words "on the paper".

I just... honestly don't understand the love of boxscore. sometimes I wonder if there are other factors included at all. I thought this project was to catch all the details and measure intangibles, not trying to be JB and just look at boxscore.

Absolutely an honest question worth discussing. Tone's a really tough thing on the internet, and the thing's you've been saying if said in the right ton would be fine - but here they were giving the appearance a lawyer grilling a witness.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, some things I thought were interesting. Regular season matchups between Philly & Boston:

'67-68 Boston 4, Philly 4
'66-67 Boston 5, Philly 4

Worth noting also that no other team was able to beat or tie the matchup with Philly. And in '66-67, no other team won more than 2 games against Philly.

Also, and I have no idea what this means: The single best performance against Boston these two years was Cincy going 5-3 against them in '67-68. Cincy only won 1 game against them in '66-67 so I'm not willing to put forward the idea that Cincy was the secret Celtic kryptonite - but interesting nonetheless.

[bastillon]

some interesting quotes from that article:

Russell was slow settling down in Boston. When I came to the Celtics he'd been with them a year and he had just moved from the Hotel Lenox in the city into a different house out in Reading. There wasn't anything in it for a while except a telephone, a refrigerator and a rocking chair. This one time I was out there—I remember the date, Nov. 2, 1957—Rose was pregnant. Not only that but she was having birth pains there in the living room, rocking back and forth in that rocking chair, and Bill was off somewhere in the only car. I said to her, "Don't do anything. Wait till Bill comes back." I've had five kids since, but I didn't know anything then, so I stood over her and I wrung my hands and she rocked back and forth and I said, "Please, please wait till Bill gets back. He'll know what to do...he can handle anything."

"There wasn't a guy I jumped against I couldn't beat if I had the chance to talk to him beforehand. I talked to Charlie Dumas and we tied. After that he never talked and he went on to those world records. I recall we had one big meet with 34 jumpers. They wanted to start the bar at five-eight. I said, 'Let's start it at six-four—let's get rid of all this garbage.' I wore a silk scarf, basketball shoes, a track suit and black glasses. I took off the glasses to jump. I had no trouble that time. I loved track. I was completely loose—never got worried or sick before an event...loose as ashes."

He's a fantastic athlete. He could have been the decathlon champion. He could broad-jump 24 feet. He did the hurdles in 13.4. I've seen him in plays on a basketball court when he not only blocks a shot but controls the ball and feeds it to his forwards, and then he's up at the other end of the court trailing the fast break and if there's a rebound there he is, ready for it. He just might be the fastest man on the Celtics. Last year in the playoffs Archie Clark of the Lakers stole the ball three times and he must have had five steps on Russell and a free lane to the basket. Each time Russell caught him and blocked the shot. Think of that. Think of being on the other team. There's got to be a funny feeling, going for the basket when Russell's around.

He used to throw up all the time before a game, or at halftime—a tremendous sound, almost as loud as his laugh. He doesn't do it much now, except when it's an important game or an important challenge for him—someone like Chamberlain, or someone coming up that everyone's touting. It's a welcome sound, too, because it means he's keyed up for the game, and around the locker room we grin and say, "Man, we're going to be all right tonight."

Russell destroyed him. That's a word you can use about him—he "destroyed" players. You take Neil Johnston—a good set shot and a great sweeping hook shot, a big long-armed guy who played for Philly and was the leading scorer in the NBA the year before. Russell destroyed him. He destroyed him psychologically as well, so that he practically ran him out of organized basketball. He blocked so many shots that Johnston began throwing his hook farther and farther from the basket. It was ludicrous, and the guys along the bench began to laugh, maybe in relief that they didn't have to worry about such a guy themselves.

this one's great:

Willie Mays has already arrived at the dinner party, looking chilly in a lightweight gray suit. It is a cold autumn day outside. He brightens at Russell's entrance. He stands in front of the fire, bouncing up and down on his toes, and in reply to how he feels and what he thinks about next season he announces he is only going to play 100 baseball games; the schedule is just too exhausting; in fact, maybe he'll limit himself to 80. "Well, 80, yes I should think so," says Russell. "Baseball...really damn brutal. Think of it. You got to get to the ball park at 4 o'clock for a night game. You sit around and shoot some pool. Then you eat a sandwich maybe, and you drink some pop. Then you sit around and do a lot of cussing at each other. Then you pull yourselves together and it's time for some more pool. After a while you get dressed. Out on the field you lounge around the batting cage. Then you go back and lie down and read the day's lineup. Finally you go back out and the game begins. The only people who do anything are the pitchers and catchers. What does everyone else do? Well, they lean forward on their toes and they pound their fists into their gloves! [Russell stands and pounds his fists together.] Sometimes they spit on the ground. Just for a change. When the pitcher gets three men out, everybody walks into the dugout where they hold their chins in their hands. [He holds his chin in his hand.] And what then? They stare out at the field until it's time to go out and start pounding that glove again. It's really brutal."

"Aw, come on," says Mays, bouncing on his toes.

His first season was rough—we finished second. He called us in to see him at the beginning of his second season—we were down in Puerto Rico on an exhibition tour—and he looked at us, six or seven Celtic veterans, and said that sitting in that room was a century of basketball experience. He wanted our help—he wanted to tap that knowledge. Of course he told us that his would be the final decision. It helped a lot. He told us to criticize him if we felt he warranted it. One of his problems is that after he gets a rebound he sometimes won't come all the way downcourt with the offense. He has a tendency to go to half-court and watch. If I'm on the bench I'll yell, "Get down there, Russ!" And he'll start, jump a little, you know, and he'll prance on down there, that chin striking out, and that goatee of his accentuating the whole business.

[Sedale Threatt]

I won't go so far as to say that Hannum can't possibly deserve blame, I just think it's really important to realize what Hannum did for Wilt - and when I hear stories of Wilt showing his independence by not liking Hannum's handshake policy, and going on and on about how "there is more to life than basketball/winning", it really makes me shake my head and think how hard it must have been to deal with Wilt as his coach, let alone then also deal with keeping the rest of the team's morale high.

Absolutely, positively no question about that. When I reference Hannum, I'm talking mainly about Game 7. But yes, dealing with Wilt on a day-to-day basis must have been hard. I could say that Sharman managed to earn his consistent respect, and that other stars (MJ, Kobe, Shaq) were also difficult in their own ways. But that's almost besides the point. Dealing with Wilt would have tested everything a coach had.

[Sedale Threatt]

losing to a team of Celtics caliber (who stepped it up big time in the playoffs) is no shame and you know that. whether or not it was a serious contention, the fact remains untouched that they were an excellent team with more than enough talent to make the playoffs and stay competitive. meanwhile Russell's teammates proved incapable of making the playoffs.

I wouldn't say it's shameful, not at all. Obviously that Boston team had some serious mojo brewing. But losing to a team you finished seven games ahead of during the RS in five games isn't exactly something to be proud of, either. Do you think the players sat around in the locker room after the fifth game congratulating themselves on a good season? I sure don't. It sure as hell isn't serious contention.

I don't know why so many of you are ignoring just how stacked this 76ers team was, with or without Wilt.

So now you know how I feel when you and Reg want to minimize the help Russell had throughout his career.

Guys like Cousy, Jones, Sharman and Heinsohn are merely riding Russell's coattails -- out of respect, I neglect to mention Hondo and Auerbach -- whereas a cast that won a grand total of one playoff game -- one!!! -- Chamberlain's wake is stacked.

No question it was very, very good. You don't do what the Sixers did in 67 without a quality all-around team. Hal Greer was obviously great, as was Cunningham. Chet Walker was an All-Star. They had good role players. But the fact of the matter, again, is that this group did nothing without Wilt. Zero.

Of course, it wasn't simply a matter of Wilt leaving. Greer got old and retired. Walker was traded. Cunningham left for the ABA. A lot of extenuating circumstances. But they still had Greer and Cunningham in 70, as well as Wali Jones and Archie Clark, and they couldn't even make the playoffs.

I also don't ever see you recognizing the retirement of Sam Jones as a factor in Boston's decline post-Russell -- you conveniently ignore a lot of little details like this -- so I don't feel all that guilty about crediting the decision to move Wilt as the biggest factor in Philly's descent to the worst record in NBA history.

EDIT -- And I see, looking back close at all the posts, that Luke Jackson was apparently the precursor to Dennis Rodman (despite him receiving no more than passing mention in any of the books I've read of the era). If so, then I don't have any problem elevating Satch Sanders and K.C. Jones into any future discussions about Russell's supporting cast.

Both of whom were definitively considered among the top defenders of their time, but I'd resisted mentioning them as they were still basically role players whose reps were lifted by their affiliation with the Celtics. No more.

[Sedale Threatt]

But I'm baffled as it how it got that far...how did Hannum not call a time out and say, “Our shots aren't falling. Pass it to the guy who led our team in scoring and led the regular season and is leading the post season in field goal percentage.” Seriously, how does that not happen?

That's all I'm saying. Totally unlike the 69 situation in detail, but identical in substance -- it should never, ever have gotten to the point it did.

Bastillon raises a great point that it could have been a tactical decision, which is entirely within a coach's prerogative. Fine, I can buy that. A panic move, in my opinion, but they hadn't done much for two 1/2 games, and maybe he thought the team needed to switch gears.

But if that's the case, then don't be shrugging your shoulders afterward, saying you played like you did all season, or making snide comments about never having to ask Wilt to shoot before.

To follow up on what you said about Wilt/Hannum, not only did they patch things back up, I'm pretty sure they actually got to be pretty close in their retirement years.

And another anecdote about Wilt's obstinence -- I cannot remember the year or the coach, but I want to say it was with the Lakers.

Team comes in at halftime, where Wilt proceeds to polish off a dozen hot dogs and a quart of 7-Up. Coach pulls him aside after the game and asks him not to do that. Wilt complies; instead, he has a whole chicken, apple pie and a gallon of milk for his next in-game meal.

True or not, you hear those stories and think that's basically something a 12-year-old would do. I think Wilt just knew how much clout he had as a box-office draw and all of that, and he took advantage of that to the fullest. Not a very admirable trait.

Like I said earlier, Russell used to throw up before games, and Wilt used to eat small banquets at halftime. You can probably sum up the difference between the two right there.

[ronnymac2]

Team comes in at halftime, where Wilt proceeds to polish off a dozen hot dogs and a quarter of 7-Up. Coach pulls him aside after the game and asks him not to do that. Wilt complies; instead, he has a whole chicken, apple pie and a gallon of milk for his next in-game meal.

True or not, you hear those stories and think that's basically something a 12-year-old would do. I think Wilt just knew how much clout he had as a box-office draw and all of that, and he took advantage of that to the fullest. Not a very admirable trait.

Like I said earlier, Russell used to throw up before games, and Wilt used to eat small banquets at halftime. You can probably sum up the difference between the two right there.

That's so awesome. That clinches it for me.


Final Rankings:

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
John Havlicek

Super HM: Elgin Baylor

Russell over O because of tiebreakers. Oscar was a monster this year. Almost overtook Bill.

O over West because he dominated the league a little more. No real reason to take West this year.

West over Hondo because he's better. Hondo over Baylor because he outplayed him in the finals and was a champion. I'm not sure either could replace the other at the benefit of either teams though. Hondo gets in by the slightest of margins. 40/10/7 in an elimination against the guy sticks out in my mind.

HM: Dave Bing, Nate Thurmond

[Mean_Streets]

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Jerry West
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Elgin Baylor

[bastillon]

Team comes in at halftime, where Wilt proceeds to polish off a dozen hot dogs and a quarter of 7-Up. Coach pulls him aside after the game and asks him not to do that. Wilt complies; instead, he has a whole chicken, apple pie and a gallon of milk for his next in-game meal.

True or not, you hear those stories and think that's basically something a 12-year-old would do. I think Wilt just knew how much clout he had as a box-office draw and all of that, and he took advantage of that to the fullest. Not a very admirable trait.

Like I said earlier, Russell used to throw up before games, and Wilt used to eat small banquets at halftime. You can probably sum up the difference between the two right there.

That's so awesome. That clinches it for me.


Final Rankings:

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
John Havlicek

Super HM: Elgin Baylor

so Wilt acts like an irresponsible high school player and that clinches it for you ? I don't understand.

also, what's your justification for Baylor under West ? similar stats (efficiency for West, rebounding for Baylor) but 25 games less should probably be a factor. team did quite well without him, too. Baylor had more MVP Shares (3rd), while West didn't even make the list. Baylor was first team all-NBA, West was on the 2nd team. RS wasn't even close. West stepped up in the PS, but so did Baylor and he had to carry this team without West to get there in the first place. do you think this team makes the playoffs without Baylor playing like a top player in the NBA ? it just seems like everything is in Baylor's favor - recognition, games, impact (given team didn't regress without West that much).

what do you guys think about what happened in '69 ? should that affect our voting ? seems like West, Chamberlain and Baylor are gonna finish in the top5. I'd like to see more value from'em the next season to prove voters right... and we know it just didn't happen.

[semi-sentient]

I personally have Baylor ahead of West after seeing how the Lakers performed in West's absence. All those things you mentioned were also things I took into account. West and Baylor both made my top 5, as did Hondo who was really, really good in the playoffs. Unfortunately, that leaves Oscar as the odd man out, but someone deserving of a spot was going to have to get left out. As good a season as Oscar had, he lost ground based on what the others did in the playoffs, and missing games didn't really help his case.

[Sedale Threatt]

what do you guys think about what happened in '69 ? should that affect our voting ?

No.

[lorak]

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Big O
4. Connie Hawkins
5. Baylor

[drza]

Right now I've got Wilt and Russell battling for the top spot, then on the next tier down I've got Oscar, Baylor, Hondo and West. I agree with those arguments that put Baylor as the Laker that season over West, and Hondo's postseason probably gets him in. Between Oscar and West, Oscar missed half as much time and his team cratered when he was out while the Lakers were still solid. I understand this, as it just shows that the Lakers were already a good team so I'm not penalizing West for his team being good...more, this suggests to me that we shouldn't penalize Oscar for his team not doing as much as West's since they were obviously a lot more reliant upon him.

Still hashing out the top spot, but this is a season where Wilt's pure production on a championship caliber team may get him above Russell's defense and tangible intangibles. RIght now he's got the edge on my scorecard.

Tentative early rankings (become final if I never get back to change it):

1) Wilt
2) Russell
3) Baylor
4) Oscar
5) Hondo

HM: West

ETA: Forgot all about Hawkins. I'll look into him more, and he could end up challenging for my 5 slot or at least nabbing an HM.

[Sedale Threatt]

Break it down like that, and it definitely looks like West is the odd man out. I agree with that ranking almost totally, with the possible exception of flipping Elgin and O.

EDIT -- I don't see much of a case for Hawkins. By most accounts the ABA was terrible at this stage, clearly inferior to the NBA, whereas later on there was at least a legitimate debate.

[ronnymac2]

so Wilt acts like an irresponsible high school player and that clinches it for you ? I don't understand.

also, what's your justification for Baylor under West ? similar stats (efficiency for West, rebounding for Baylor) but 25 games less should probably be a factor. team did quite well without him, too. Baylor had more MVP Shares (3rd), while West didn't even make the list. Baylor was first team all-NBA, West was on the 2nd team. RS wasn't even close. West stepped up in the PS, but so did Baylor and he had to carry this team without West to get there in the first place. do you think this team makes the playoffs without Baylor playing like a top player in the NBA ? it just seems like everything is in Baylor's favor - recognition, games, impact (given team didn't regress without West that much).

He ate a whole chicken bro. He ate a whole chicken.


The Lakers certainly don't make the playoffs without Elgin's contributions.

MVP and all-nba and Win Shares (which seem to be a joke stat at this point anyway) were effected by West's games missed. I'm not really bothered by games missed. He's bordering on getting on my bad list for games missed, but it's not THAT bad imo. He was there when I would need him.

Why West over Baylor? I think he was the better player. Baylor VALUE to the Lakers in the regular season was greater than West's- won't try to argue otherwise. But West is the superior defensive player, and I'd take him as my offensive anchor over Baylor. It's like comparing Kobe and Carmelo on offense. Melo is the man, but I'll take prime Kobe over him, and the 30 games missed isn't quite enough for me to push West/Bryant lower.

[Sedale Threatt]

And an apple pie. With a gallon of milk.

Another one of my favorite Wilt stories. He befriended Lew Alcindor when he was still in high school, often having him over the apartment and such. In typical Wilt form, he lived in N.Y. while he played for the Sixers, commuting back and forth for games and practices -- most of which were held in the afternoon or evening to accommodate him.

Anyway, Lew loved it because there were always musicians and beautiful women hanging around. One day Wilt gives him a suit. Lew thought this was great, because he had such a hard time finding clothes that fit. Plus, it was stylish and all of that.

Then he got home and realized the thing was completely pitted out from Wilt having worn it out dancing or something, and he never bothered to wash it. He tried to have it cleaned, but they couldn't get the smell out, so he ended up having to throw it out.

Classic Wilt.

[ronnymac2]

Haha His nickname was "The Big Musty" afterall......

[Sedale Threatt]

Which begs the question, how did 20,000 happen with his apparent disdain for water and soap? Was he that charming that women decided they'd just hold their nose for two hours?