Today's Derrick Rose vs. MVP Season of Iverson?

[Sun Scorched]

3. Steve Nash's teammates were built around him to compliment his play-making ability. He has been surrounded by quality medium and long range shooters since becoming a member of the Suns. He teammates are MUCH better shooters than those that supported Allen Iverson. Have Nash in that system with that cast and not only will his role change drastically but he assists numbers would take a considerable dive.

This is the only thing I disagree with. Everything else was spot on.

So, based on that logic... we could expect Nash's assists to drop this season... right? What with his team looking like this:

PG - Nash
SG - Carter / Pietrus
SF - Hill / Dudley
PF - Frye / Warrick
C - Lopez / Gortat

Or he could be averaging 11.4 apg.

[X-Factor]

3. Steve Nash's teammates were built around him to compliment his play-making ability. He has been surrounded by quality medium and long range shooters since becoming a member of the Suns. He teammates are MUCH better shooters than those that supported Allen Iverson. Have Nash in that system with that cast and not only will his role change drastically but he assists numbers would take a considerable dive.

This is the only thing I disagree with. Everything else was spot on.

So, based on that logic... we could expect Nash's assists to drop this season... right? What with his team looking like this:

PG - Nash
SG - Carter / Pietrus
SF - Hill / Dudley
PF - Frye / Warrick
C - Lopez / Gortat

Or he could be averaging 11.4 apg.

Phoenix's pace is higher than the 00-01 76ers. They also have MUCH better shooters than the 00-01 Sixers.

You guys rank 5th in the league in 3pt% (38%) while those 76ers were ranked 26th (32.5%). They were also 28th in a 29 team league in 3FG/3FGA you guys are 3rd and 4th this season respectively. Your team FG% is currently at 47.1% Philly's was at 44.7%.

Now I would be a fool if I didn't mention that Nash is THE biggest reason for your team being so efficient in that arena offensively, not only because of his shooting but also his knack for finding guys in good positions to score. However you team's game is one that heavily relies on Nash's playmaking ability as a primary distributor.

Had Nash play in such a system on those 76ers it would be very unlikely that his style of play would translate similar types of production in the assists department due to the fact that his supporting cast weren't very skilled offensively. Nash is an AMAZING player I am taking nothing away from him when I say that his assists numbers would drop. It is only logical.

The Suns system is made for Steve Nash, his supporting cast (while not great) is ideal.

Think of this, do you think Steve would do as good if his supporting cast consisted of guys like Tony Allen, Ronnie Brewer, Thabo Sepholosha, Joel Anthony etc. As great as Steve Nash is he can't make a player catch the ball and put it in to the hoop at a high % the player himself would at least be able to have that kind of ability.

[Dr Positivity]

I'll take Rose, though it's not a huge slight to Iverson. Rose is having a freaking awesome season. I'd say they're close offensively but Rose has the better d

[JoseRizal]

As much as I hate AI, he gets my vote...

[mysticbb]

So, we are still at the same point; Rose is still slightly better on offense and better defensively, but for some odd reasons the majority picks the overall weaker player. :roll:

[lorak]

So, we are still at the same point; Rose is still slightly better on offense and better defensively, but for some odd reasons the majority picks the overall weaker player.

?
Rose ’11 vs AI ’01:

Code: Select all

   PER   WS/48   PPG   realTS%   
DR   22.9   0.192   24.7   -0.3
AI   24.0   0.190   31.1   0.0



realTS% is TS relatively to league average.
So Iverson was slightly more efficient on much higher volume, under more pro defensive rules. Impressive.
Iverson impact on defense was also bigger than many think. He missed 11 games during 2000/01 season and 76ers drtg without him was worse than with him, 2.8 points worse to be exact and without him Phila played against weak opponents. So Iverson improved his team defense.

On the other hand according to 82games
http://www.82games.com/1011/10CHI3.HTM#onoff
Bulls defense without Rose is better than with him: 10.4 pts difference, wow.

So it seems that Iverson was better player on both ends of the floor.

[Air Rose]

Bulls defense without Rose is better than with him: 10.4 pts difference, wow.

So it seems that Iverson was better player on both ends of the floor.

A post from the Bulls' board:

Defensively, the bench is simply too good.

I recently was checking some stats at basketballvalue.com for an article I was writing and noticed that DRose was only a +0.70 in +/- this season. I said to myself, "This can't be right." Sure enough it is and the Bulls' 2nd team D is to blame. Rose has a net +10.3 on/off court on offense (10th best in the league), but opponents score 9.60 more points (per 100 possessions) when Rose is on the court than when he's off...that 9.60 is the worst in the whole damn league.

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.p ... order=DESC

Looking further, with Rose on the court, opponents score 101.95 points per 100. Not only is that not horrible, it's 23rd best in the NBA. The problem is that insane Bulls' 2nd unit that hold opponents to only 92.35 points per 100 when Rose is resting.

I tell ya, they're screwing up DRose's +/- stats and it has to stop.

Long story short: The Bulls are an elite defensive team with Rose on the court, but their bench defense is so insanely good that it trumps anything the Bulls starters do, even Noah.

Before trying to make Rose out to be a bad defender, you could do a little research.. Rose is a really, really good defender. The Bulls bench defense is elite.

Oh yeah, and Rose is only 22. We haven't seen his best years yet. I have no doubt that he'll end up being a better player than iverson ever was.

[lorak]

^
It's rather that Rose looks like really good defender, but in fact it's great Bulls team defense. So great that even second unit is so god.
Bottom line - in comparison with Iverson there's no evidence that Rose '11 is better defender than Iverson '01.

[mysticbb]

So Iverson was slightly more efficient on much higher volume, under more pro defensive rules. Impressive.

Lol, the much higher volume came from playing more minutes and playing on a slightly higher pace. And right now both are exactly the same in terms of efficiency in comparison to perimeter and wing players. In 2001 it was 51.8 ts%, in this season it is 53.8 ts% so far.
What you are doing is incorporate the same thing twice in your argument, the different defensive rules are already adjusted for, no need to use them again.

Iverson impact on defense was also bigger than many think. He missed 11 games during 2000/01 season and 76ers drtg without him was worse than with him, 2.8 points worse to be exact and without him Phila played against weak opponents. So Iverson improved his team defense.

Yeah, and how does that look on offense? Did you check the numbers too? And did you compare Rose' impact on offense with that? No, you selected the stats which are showing your biased opinion, not the real picture.

Iverson was worse on offense overall due to the worse play-making abilities. Iverson was worse on defense, because he played worse defense than Rose, Rose is better on the ball and as a team/help defender, Iverson played the passing lanes better and gambled more for steals.

[tclg]

Rose has been rock solid on defense. He doesnt gamble for steals because thats ronnie brewers job. Noah also is above average at steals. The most impressive thing about rose's defense is that he is using his athleticism to challenge jump shots. It shows in his blocks per game, most of those are on his own man.

[-Illmatic-]

I am in NO way saying D.Rose is <<<<< than Iverson I would be a fool to say such a thing but he is NOT a superstar as of right now IMO. When Derrick proves that he can lead a team as good as the Bulls in the post season (now he doesn't have to go anywhere but just be able to mirror the performances of Durant and Wade in last year's post season) he has NOT been considered a superstar player by the masses.

Great playoff performances even if the player gets knocked out in the first round because of the fact that he came up against a vastly superior team (see KG before 03-04) is what along with a certain tier of current regular season dominance is defines a superstar player in basketball.

Kevin Durant 09-10 playoffs: 25.00PPG 7.7RPG 2.3APG .35FG% 49TS%

Derrick Rose 09-10 playoffs: 26.8PPG 3.4RPG 7.2APG 45FG% 49TS%

[X-Factor]

Kevin Durant 09-10 playoffs: 25.00PPG 7.7RPG 2.3APG .35FG% 49TS%

Derrick Rose 09-10 playoffs: 26.8PPG 3.4RPG 7.2APG 45FG% 49TS%

VS a Cavs team who they took 1 game from. In losing by an average of 12 points per game.

The Thunder pushed the Lakers to 6 games and really came close to forcing the 7th.

Durant's poor shooting was a direct result of swarmed by Kobe, Lamar and Artest. Durant also didn't airball a jumper or miss keys free throws late in the game to nearly cost his team the game. He came up clutch. Rose was amazing and the numbers will state so but you'd better had read into the numbers to appreciate their respective performances.

[cool007]

Kevin Durant 09-10 playoffs: 25.00PPG 7.7RPG 2.3APG .35FG% 49TS%

Derrick Rose 09-10 playoffs: 26.8PPG 3.4RPG 7.2APG 45FG% 49TS%

VS a Cavs team who they took 1 game from. In losing by an average of 12 points per game.

The Thunder pushed the Lakers to 6 games and really came close to forcing the 7th.

Durant's poor shooting was a direct result of swarmed by Kobe, Lamar and Artest. Durant also didn't airball a jumper or miss keys free throws late in the game to nearly cost his team the game. He came up clutch. Rose was amazing and the numbers will state so but you'd better had read into the numbers to appreciate their respective performances.

Wow!! Someone needs to rewatch the playoffs from last year.

Thunder didn't push it to 6-games BECAUSE of Durant, it was INSPITE of Durant not playing his normal game.

Bulls won even 1 game BECAUSE of Rose. Bulls were TOTALLY outmatched in that series vs THE BEST team in the NBA last year. There are few videos on Youtube go watch it and you will see how many times Rose DID NOT get the calls. Even the announcers on National TV were harping and surprised by LACK OF CALLS going Rose's way as they were so blatantly missed and should I say Refs just REFUSE to call it.

Despite that Rose averaging about 27ppg 3.5rpg 7apg is a big time no matter how you look at it.

[X-Factor]

Wow!! Someone needs to rewatch the playoffs from last year.

Thunder didn't push it to 6-games BECAUSE of Durant, it was INSPITE of Durant not playing his normal game.

Bulls won even 1 game BECAUSE of Rose. Bulls were TOTALLY outmatched in that series vs THE BEST team in the NBA last year. There are few videos on Youtube go watch it and you will see how many times Rose DID NOT get the calls. Even the announcers on National TV were harping and surprised by LACK OF CALLS going Rose's way as they were so blatantly missed and should I say Refs just REFUSE to call it.

Despite that Rose averaging about 27ppg 3.5rpg 7apg is a big time no matter how you look at it.

Durant shot horribly and the Thunder were still able to keep up with the Lakers. But guess what Durant wasn't the only player to play shoot bad in that series. IN SPITE of it Durant was still able to get to the line and convert on his free throws.

Last game of that series Durant shot a god awful 5-23 from the field and Westbrook wasn't that far off either but guess what they stayed in the game. Because KD was able to convert on his free throws.

I also remember the non calls in the Thunder Lakers series when Artest literally handcuffed Durant making it extremely hard for him on the perimeter. There were numerous occasions where it was eveident AND was also said by the announcers (Youtube that) where Durant shot wasn't only being contested but he was being fouled in the act but they weren't getting the whistles.

It was evident that Delonte did not do a very good job on Rose and LeBron took it upon himself to start guarding D.

[-Illmatic-]

Kevin Durant 09-10 playoffs: 25.00PPG 7.7RPG 2.3APG .35FG% 49TS%

Derrick Rose 09-10 playoffs: 26.8PPG 3.4RPG 7.2APG 45FG% 49TS%

VS a Cavs team who they took 1 game from. In losing by an average of 12 points per game.

The Thunder pushed the Lakers to 6 games and really came close to forcing the 7th.

Durant's poor shooting was a direct result of swarmed by Kobe, Lamar and Artest. Durant also didn't airball a jumper or miss keys free throws late in the game to nearly cost his team the game. He came up clutch. Rose was amazing and the numbers will state so but you'd better had read into the numbers to appreciate their respective performances.

Kevin Durant wasn't even the best player on his team that series. Derrick Rose had no where near the second option of Russell Westbrook who had a 24 per compared to Durant's mediocre 16. Kevin Durant shot 35% and was well under his season average in every statistical category, and you're telling me Rose has to match that performance to become a superstar? Again, GTFO with that bull ****.

[cool007]

Wow!! Someone needs to rewatch the playoffs from last year.

Thunder didn't push it to 6-games BECAUSE of Durant, it was INSPITE of Durant not playing his normal game.

Bulls won even 1 game BECAUSE of Rose. Bulls were TOTALLY outmatched in that series vs THE BEST team in the NBA last year. There are few videos on Youtube go watch it and you will see how many times Rose DID NOT get the calls. Even the announcers on National TV were harping and surprised by LACK OF CALLS going Rose's way as they were so blatantly missed and should I say Refs just REFUSE to call it.

Despite that Rose averaging about 27ppg 3.5rpg 7apg is a big time no matter how you look at it.

Durant shot horribly and the Thunder were still able to keep up with the Lakers. But guess what Durant wasn't the only player to play shoot bad in that series. IN SPITE of it Durant was still able to get to the line and convert on his free throws.

Last game of that series Durant shot a god awful 5-23 from the field and Westbrook wasn't that far off either but guess what they stayed in the game. Because KD was able to convert on his free throws.

I also remember the non calls in the Thunder Lakers series when Artest literally handcuffed Durant making it extremely hard for him on the perimeter. There were numerous occasions where it was eveident AND was also said by the announcers (Youtube that) where Durant shot wasn't only being contested but he was being fouled in the act but they weren't getting the whistles.

It was evident that Delonte did not do a very good job on Rose and LeBron took it upon himself to start guarding D.

Durant avreraged 10 FTA per game vs Lakers.
Rose averaged 4 FTA per game vs Cavs.

HUGE difference. Rose was just not getting calls, Durant still went to the line 10 times a game. So don't tell me Refs were screwing Durant. If that is what you call screwing, then I want Rose to get that much screwed every game.

Also, that is the point. Durant was able to slowed down while Rose just COULD NOT. Even LeBron didn't have much success guarding Rose. I just don't think anyone can really guard Rose even when Double teamed. He has one of the best handles in the game and he can get to wherever the heck he wants.

The only way to stop Rose is to have refs just not call the fouls and his TS% would go down coz he can't get to the line. That is what happened in taht Cavs series. Still Rose managed to score 27ppg and dish out 7apg even with really bad team - far worse than what OKC had last year.

[X-Factor]

Kevin Durant wasn't even the best player on his team that series. Derrick Rose had no where near the second option of Russell Westbrook who had a 24 per compared to Durant's mediocre 16. Kevin Durant shot 35% and was well under his season average in every statistical category, and you're telling me Rose has to match that performance to become a superstar? Again, GTFO with that bull ****.

Durant avreraged 10 FTA per game vs Lakers.
Rose averaged 4 FTA per game vs Cavs.

HUGE difference. Rose was just not getting calls, Durant still went to the line 10 times a game. So don't tell me Refs were screwing Durant. If that is what you call screwing, then I want Rose to get that much screwed every game.

Also, that is the point. Durant was able to slowed down while Rose just COULD NOT. Even LeBron didn't have much success guarding Rose. I just don't think anyone can really guard Rose even when Double teamed. He has one of the best handles in the game and he can get to wherever the heck he wants.

The only way to stop Rose is to have refs just not call the fouls and his TS% would go down coz he can't get to the line. That is what happened in taht Cavs series. Still Rose managed to score 27ppg and dish out 7apg even with really bad team - far worse than what OKC had last year.

I will man up and take wrong on this because of the fact that it is evident Derrick Rose outperformed Durant last post-season.

You guys are however undervaluing the impact Durant had against the Lakers. They came prepared for him and it showed in his play.

[cool007]

Kevin Durant wasn't even the best player on his team that series. Derrick Rose had no where near the second option of Russell Westbrook who had a 24 per compared to Durant's mediocre 16. Kevin Durant shot 35% and was well under his season average in every statistical category, and you're telling me Rose has to match that performance to become a superstar? Again, GTFO with that bull ****.

Durant avreraged 10 FTA per game vs Lakers.
Rose averaged 4 FTA per game vs Cavs.

HUGE difference. Rose was just not getting calls, Durant still went to the line 10 times a game. So don't tell me Refs were screwing Durant. If that is what you call screwing, then I want Rose to get that much screwed every game.

Also, that is the point. Durant was able to slowed down while Rose just COULD NOT. Even LeBron didn't have much success guarding Rose. I just don't think anyone can really guard Rose even when Double teamed. He has one of the best handles in the game and he can get to wherever the heck he wants.

The only way to stop Rose is to have refs just not call the fouls and his TS% would go down coz he can't get to the line. That is what happened in taht Cavs series. Still Rose managed to score 27ppg and dish out 7apg even with really bad team - far worse than what OKC had last year.

I will man up and take wrong on this because of the fact that it is evident Derrick Rose outperformed Durant last post-season.

You guys are however undervaluing the impact Durant had against the Lakers. They came prepared for him and it showed in his play.

Yes, this is why when people compare Rose to Westbrook we tell them, having BEST scorer in the NBA as your teammate helps big time. All eyes are on that player and teams really game plan and prepare to stop that player - Thus making life so much easier for Westbrook. But that's for another thread.

Yes, Lakers did go all out on stopping Durant and they were basically blitzing Durant - something taht teams have been doing with Rose this year so much. They also play zone so Rose doesn't penetrate etc.

[lorak]

Yeah, and how does that look on offense? Did you check the numbers too? And did you compare Rose' impact on offense with that? No, you selected the stats which are showing your biased opinion, not the real picture.

Iverson was worse on offense overall due to the worse play-making abilities. Iverson was worse on defense, because he played worse defense than Rose, Rose is better on the ball and as a team/help defender, Iverson played the passing lanes better and gambled more for steals.

76ers offense also improved with Iverson. But he wasn't a playmaker like Rose so his overall impact on O was smaller. But on defense he's better than Rose - at least data says so.

Overall, despite different roles, they are very close and only someone biased towards one of them would say that Iverson or Rose is better. Equal players, equal situations (both on defensive teams, with great defensive coaches) and equal results (Rose also will advance to the Finals and there lose to Lakers).

[Ming Kong!]

I have Rose as my MVP this year, and I think he's a top 5 NBA player and the best PG this season. Now Iverson though had a remarkable season. Just so you get an idea of little offensive punch the team had outside of Iverson, a 12.4ppg Mutombo was the number two option! What the team was is a very well coached team, played great defense, and at it's core it had TONS of heart, anchored by Allen Iverson. While .420 may seem inefficient, Iverson had to take incredible tough shots as the defense never gave him anything since he was the only scorer on the floor. He was the MVP of the year, there was absolutely no question about it. Put Rose on that team, and I don't think they would of gone to the finals. Not sure Iverson would of played the same under a different coach, but had he had the same discipline/mind set, he'd make the Bull much scarier this year than they are now.