RealGM Top 100 List #14

[Fencer reregistered]

Havlicek starts out for many years as a 6th man.

That is in no way, shape, or form a knock against him. Not on the Celtics, who glorified the position of 6th man. Hondo and McHale may not always have started, but they were very likely to be finishing games. "Havlicek stole the ball!" was a game-closing play from the 1960s.

[Fencer reregistered]

Bobby Jones and Dennis Rodman would be the other top 100 caliber player to spend a significant portion of their career as a reserve . . . unless you count Bill Walton who spent 1 of his 2 full seasons (2 of his 3 "healthy" playoffs) as a reserve.

Most of McHale's pre-injury years were as 6th man. I don't think he started regularly until Maxwell was traded for Walton.

[Laimbeer]

Vote: Oscar Robertson
Nomination: Walt Frazier

Surprised KG and Malone both went before Oscar. His offensive efficiency was outstanding for a perimeter player from his era and he averaged 9.5 APG in an era where assists were much harder to come by (players were credited with an assist only when the pass directly led to a basket). He also had a huge impact on the game. Just look at how the Bucks fell apart the year after he left. The Bucks had four consecutive 59+ win seasons with Oscar. Oscar retires and the Bucks win only 38 games in 1975 despite all of their top players except Lucius Allen being healthy for the entire year.

Great point on Oscar and the Bucks.

I'd be pretty much alone, but I think the Oscar v. Magic conversation is not a ridiculous one.

Vote: Oscar Robertson
Nominate: John Havlicek

[Dr Positivity]

My vote was for Rick Barry, but I definitely support Baylor over Havlicek

Baylor and Hondo is an interest comparison because Baylor's statistical peak was early and Hondo's was late. I personally think pre knee butchery Baylor was better than old Hondo. This is a guy who was dropping 34 and 14 type stats. He finished ahead of both Oscar and Wilt in 61 in 63. In 62 he was a Selvy shot away from a 38 and 19 moonlighting from the military championship which would've been ridiculous. Only his surgery kept Baylor from being another West, Oscar, Wilt, Russell epic career. His first 5 years are as good as their's. Although athletic competition was lower, his 60-63 4 year stretch is probably top 15 GOAT caliber. Old Hondo in comparison was great but not a superstar.

Then you've got the mid late 60s period where Havlicek is playing, but not at the level of later, and Baylor is past his athletic peak but still dropping excellent stats and being a top 7 player. Baylor was recognized as a 1st team All-NBAer every year. Him and Hondo were both categorized as Fs and Baylor was getting the 1st team edge. Havlicek had a less flashy role, but Baylor's stats are so much better than it's hard not to call it a draw at best. Would someone really prefer mid 60s Hondo to mid 60s Baylor?

I think this is like a Barkley/Drob vs Pippen debate. We love the defense and versatility Pippen gives and the success he's had, but is that enough to put him over superstars? I think Baylor is still pretty close to that superstar zone. I agree that Baylor was a huge volume guy to get his points, but he's also rebounding at a huge rate, playing on succesful teams and had a ridiculous peak - and Hondo's efficiency is nothing great either to that point.

[Dr Positivity]

I think you can draw a pretty solid comparison between Elgin Baylor and Julius Erving to be honest. Both guys have their monster statistical years followed by surgery and still 1st team All-NBA caliber play after. And from what I've seen style of play is pretty close. I like Erving more but I'm not sure it should be the difference between borderline top 10 and below Havlicek and Pippen

[lorak]

I'd be pretty much alone, but I think the Oscar v. Magic conversation is not a ridiculous one.

You are not alone

[Bucksfans1and2]

Vote: Moses

Nominate: Dwight

[Baller 24]

What? Dwight? In what aspect is his peak any greater than a majority of the centers remaining?

[colts18]

What? Dwight? In what aspect is his peak any greater than a majority of the centers remaining?

It's better than all of theirs except for Moses and Robinson.

[Baller 24]

What? Dwight? In what aspect is his peak any greater than a majority of the centers remaining?

It's better than all of theirs except for Moses and Robinson.

Ewing? Walton?

Walton although doesn't have the longest career, is at his ultimate peak a greater player than Dwight Howard.

[penbeast0]

Walton is a one year wonder . . . the only other year he made it all the way through the season was as a reserve. If you consider peak more than 1 year, Howard's is certainly better . . . and I'd be willing to consider it better than Ewing's too since Howard has the advantage in defense, rebounding, and efficiency.

Now Gilmore's ABA peak is probably higher, maybe McAdoo if you value offense or even Mel Daniels depending on how far you discount the early ABA years.

[Baller 24]

Hmm, I'm sure you can argue Ewing's abilities as a defender compared to Howard.

Then you can also take a look at competition relative to their positions, than further more into longevity where Ewing has him ousted...

I'm just saying I don't think I'm ready to label Dwight who's played 6 years a top 30 player all-time.

[Dr Positivity]

Just watched G6 of the 63 Finals, all of it is on youtube except a mysteriously absent "Part 2 of 10"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNSl7zZlhQ&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

West carries the Lakers in the 1st half, Baylor in the 2nd when they move him to G to get him away from the Russell patrolled paint. Pretty impressive game by Cousy even though it's his last game, he's pretty quick even when old.

[TMACFORMVP]

EDIT - Was late with this, my bad, ha.

I love the argument for Oscar over West, and even Moses (who I was sold at for the spot last time around), but then when I look at LeBron, I wonder why all of them over him. I mean, it's true Bron has choked in the last two post-seasons for one round respectively in each run, but when we're talking about peak, I think he has the best one left, when we factor in defensively, all round game, and offensive dominance.

I've also soured on Moses with the arguments as well, but I think we still understate the offensive sort impact he had during his peak. There's a different sense of offensive dominance you get, regardless what the stats would say when you watch these players. That aura you get from a player that can consistently take over games for certain stretches, which completely changes the momentum or outcome of the entire game - that's what Moses did during his peak, leading that Rockets team to the Finals, or in his 82 season finishing the year with roughly 35-36 PPG with 15-16 RPG in the final two months of the season.

I mean, a guy like Kevin Martin last year scored roughly 22% of the Rockets team points last season. But actually watching him play, he's a guy that quietly got you 5-6 points per quarter but his inability to take over games down the stretch, and inability to truly make teams fear for his scoring ability to the point where he draws extra defensive attention doesn't make him near the scorer of someone who might score less than 22% of their teams overall points. It's not the best example, and I'm not trying to revisit old arguments with him and KG, but Moses offensive impact is being a little understated IMO.

Nonetheless, saying this, I'd still think Oscar and LeBron have more an offensive impact, similarly with West as well. And defensively, Moses does little to truly separate himself, but his rebounding is elite. True, his defensive rebounding isn't as impressive, but why should we discredit his overall rebounding when he was terrific on the offensive glass - arguably the greatest all time.

And while I hate to factor in team success across eras, with different supporting casts, I think my rankings are not solely based on peak, but rather a multitude of factors with peak being the most prominent factor. And Moses does have a championship ring as the best player under his resume. That should count for something, considering LeBron's lack of success, and West/Oscar being more the second bananas on their championship - still HUGE impacts, but not the alpha dog per se. Not to mention, a Finals MVP and three MVP's. But is it enough to over weigh that the perimeter players were likely more impactful players.

When I look at it, I think I have it as LeBron, Oscar, and then West.

But I don't know where to place Moses. Maybe my mind is getting ahead of me thinking there's no way I could have Moses at 18th, but that shouldn't really affect my decision since players have truly passed him up from this current era, which would naturally lower him on the All-Time list. I'd still like to see a Moses v. West argument however (unless I glossed over it).

I really don't have a strong feeling or inclination here, I think those four all have legitimate cases.

Vote: Moses Malone
Nominate: Walt Frazier

Will just stick with my vote from last time, though I'm awfully tempted to put LeBron over him.

[lorak]

So Robertson won:

Oscar 9
Doctor MJ therealbig3 drza DavidStern RoyceDa59
Baller 24 Fencer reregistered Gongxi Laimbeer

Moses 6
JordansBulls FJS Sedale Threatt SDChargers#1 Bucksfans1and2 TMACFORMVP


West 6
Dr Mufasa penbeast0 ronnymac2 mysticbb shawngoat23 An Unbiased Fan


LeBron 1
ElGee

Barkley 1
fatal9


Nominations again are too close:

Barry 4
Frazier 4
Baylor 3
Nash 3
Hondo 3
Pippen 2
Stockton 2
Dwight 1
Drexler 1

Maybe we should start nominate for example 3 players in order and 3 pts for 1st place, 2 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd?

[Fencer reregistered]

Nominations again are too close:

Barry 4
Frazier 4
Baylor 3
Nash 3
Hondo 3
Pippen 2
Stockton 2
Dwight 1
Drexler 1

Maybe we should start nominate for example 3 players in order and 3 pts for 1st place, 2 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd?

We have to make some kind of a change. Perhaps nominate guys in batches, voting for several nominees at once. The goal can be to add 3 nominees at once, but the vote counters can choose any number from 1 to 5 depending on how the voting pattern plays out.

If 1 guy gets added, we do it again next round. If 3-5 guys get added, we skip a couple of nomination rounds.



I think weighted votes are likely to cause more problems than they solve.

[mysticbb]

The Bucks had four consecutive 59+ win seasons with Oscar. Oscar retires and the Bucks win only 38 games in 1975 despite all of their top players except Lucius Allen being healthy for the entire year.

Well, if we ignore that their starting center missed 17 games and they starting guard 41, we can very well claim that the Bucks were healthy for the entirer year. ;)

[penbeast0]

Okay, since I skipped last nomination as a tie, I will put both Frazier and Barry in this time to bring us back to 10 since some posters prefer that.

[semi-sentient]

Have you looked at his playoff numbers? They're insane...everyone has a few bad games here and there...but overall, his performance in those playoff runs are GOAT-level.

09 RS-28.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 7.2 apg, .591 TS%
09 PS-35.3 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 7.3 apg, .618 TS%

10 RS-29.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 8.6 apg, .604 TS%
10 PS-29.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 7.6 apg, .607 TS%

He seemed to either maintain his production, or improve it.

How are those performances GOAT-level, particularly when the sample size is so small and given his bizarre exit in the 2010 playoffs? They don't compare to what Jordan did from 91-93, or what Shaq did from 00-02, or what Magic did from 85-88, or what Bird did from 84-87, or what Wilt did from 66-68. I haven't even talked about Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe yet, all of who had multiple years where they dominated in the RS/PS and won championships.

LeBron had one fantastic playoff run in 2009, but one dominant playoff run isn't enough to put him up against a handful of others who also tore up the RS/PS during a 3 to 4 year stretch. I don't even think that post-season run stacks up with Kobe's in 2001, much less some of those others listed in any given year. And as bad ass as he was against the Magic, he was largely ineffective on defense and his drive/kick style of setting up teammates proved ineffective as well since role players typically struggle in the playoffs under pressure. Nevermind that a 31-year old Kobe also torched that same Magic defense -- a team that had no notable wing defenders -- and while they were a very good defensive team as a whole, they weren't anywhere near an all-time great defense like some of the other teams LeBron has struggled against. Outside of Dwight Howard, who was in constant foul trouble thanks to all the ticky-tack foul calls, they are a fairly average defensive team.

People need to stop with this GOAT-level performance talk. His numbers in a very limited time frame are certainly in the vicinity, but when you start factoring in all the intangibles (desire, leadership, fearlessness), opponent strength and small sample size he doesn't compare favorably.

[Baller 24]

Semi, I agree with your post, but to an extent. He's still got one of the most impressive resumes both overall and statistically speaking. If we're comparing his play, he's playing at GOAT level in the sense that there's absolutely no one better than him, he's playing at a level we've only seen a few individuals throughout the history of this game play.

There are times you can nitpick his statistics and abilities as an individual player, but he's nonetheless from an overall standpoint as impressive as it gets. The scary part is that he's only 26, and he's not done. And while he's clearly outside of the top 10/11, he's still the player I'd take over let's say the majority of the listed candidates, not just on my team, but as a better player too.