ElGee wrote:drza wrote:semi-sentient wrote:There's a lot more to it than just Garnett joining the Celtics. For starters, Pierce missed half the prior season, and the only other guys that were somewhat steady for the Celtics were Gerald Green, Al Jeff, and Delonte West. Kendrick Perkins was only get around 22 MPG, so while he was solid defender he wasn't getting the minutes to have enough of an impact -- and let's face it, when you're FC partner is Al Jeff then you're in bad shape.
Rondo came in and was already a decent defender in his first season. He's quick and while not a great man defender it doesn't matter when you have KG and Perkins backing you up. Ray Allen has always been a solid defender, and when you put all of that together in addition to the motivation those 3 guys had upon coming together, well, they were pretty fantastic.
Oh, and they hired a guy named Tom Thibodeau that off-season. I think he had a little something to do with that improvement as well..
The thing is, because of Garnett's injuries in the past 4 years we can test exactly how the Celtics have played with and without him with a huge sample size each way. We also have a huge sample size with the starting unit without Perkins. I spent some time looking through 82games.com's 5-man units and this is what it told me about how the Rondo/Allen/Pierce units have played with every combination of big man the Celtics have had:
Garnett and Perkins: 112.4 points/100 possessions, 97.3 points allowed/100 poss
Garnett w/o Perkins: 111.9 points/100 possessions, 99.3 points allowed/100 poss
Perkins w/o Garnett: 109.5 points/100 possessions, 112.1 points allowed/100 poss
Now, let me be clear. Since Garnett arrived in 2007, the Celtics' main starting group (Rondo, Ray Allen, Pierce, and Perkins) in a Tom Thibideaux defense have given up 112.1 points/100 possessions when any other player besides Garnett was the 5th player on the floor with them. Just for clarity, the worst defense in the NBA this year gave up 112.7 points/100 possessions. And again, we're talking huge sample sizes here, from well over 200 games that Garnett has played in and 60 that he hasn't over the past 4 years. Conversely, with Garnett in the the line-up (with or without Perkins) the starting unit has given up 13 - 15 fewer points per 100 possessions.
How is that possible if Garnett is riding their coattails to the elite Celtics defenses of the past 4 years?
And again, let me be clear. I'm not saying that the other 4 players are bad defenders, or that they don't also play a role in the Celtics' defensive results. They're not, and they do. But the thing is, individually, the other 4 Celtics have some things that make them effective defenders but also things that make them LIMITED defensive players. By themselves, they can't play stifling team defense even in an excellent Thibideau scheme, because alone they aren't enough. What they need is the one defensive player to build the whole thing around...the guy who is able to erase their mistakes, to help them to recover when their man beats them, and to make sure that they are in the right places at all times.
In short, to be successful on defense, the other Celtics need a defensive anchor.
In all of the conversations I've had on the subject, I've never had ONE person able to explain the above facts to me without Garnett being the anchor. Usually, at this point either the thread dies or the argument is taken in another direction. When Garnett's around, the Celtics team defense is elite. When he's not, the defense falls off a cliff. You can swap out the 2nd best defender, no problem. Swap out Garnett, and the main unit stinks on defense. I mean seriously...what is the counter-argument here? Four years later, how can we still be having new posts about whether or not Garnett is a defensive anchor?
Are you sure those numbers are correct? 82games has Boston w/out KG as:
2008 102.2 DRtg
2009 106.6 DRtg
2010 107.9 DRtg
2011 105.1 DRtg
I don't ses how your numbers can be correct...
My numbers are for the starting unit only. So when Rondo/Ray/Pierce/Perk have played with KG over the last 4 years their DRtg is 97, but when they've played with any other 5th player their DRtg is 112. Essentially, this is specifically comparing apples to apples as far as how the main unit plays w/ and w/o KG against (presumably) the opponents' main units.
The overall numbers you posted include all times when Garnett isn't on the court, which includes all bench combos and every other line-up. And that's important info as well, which I often make use of. But my post responds specifically to those that say "Thibs was a defensive genius and Perk/Rondo/Pierce were all secretly stud defenders so Garnett leading the Celtics to a historic defense wasn't that great an accomplishment". As this shows, the other 4 starters playing in a Thibs defense weren't even within shouting distance of being a "good" defensive unit without Garnett over a very large sample of time.
(By the way, if you want to double-check me, all of my info came from the 5-man line-up info on 82games.com. I posted the raw #s from each 5-man line-up for '08, '09, '10 and '11 on the 4th page of this thread, so you can go back and verify my numbers if you like).
