#13 Highest Peak of All Time (Julius '76 wins)

[ElGee]

Woah. Ardee -- why Kobe over Wade? McGrady? Robinson? West? Barkley? I mean, I could list a lot of players but just the wings I mentioned -- why Kobe over Wade or Mac??

And I'd like to clarify something about Jerry West because apparently no one read it or they didn't understand it:

The Lakers were a SUB .500 team in 31 games without West in 1968 (no other significant injuries or roster flux), With West, they were better than an 8 SRS team with basically the best offense in basketball history to that history, and an offense that was maybe matched once in the next 20 years. Individually, West was nearly 10% better than league average on HIGH VOLUME...then he improved on that in the PS and was a major catalyst in pushing the Celtic team that just clipped the "shoulda been a dynasty" 76ers. (When West's ankle didn't hold for G6, the team was finally blown out...)

West also basically owns the record for In/Out value in surrounding seasons, constantly missing between 12 and 30 games and effecting his teams greatly whether they had prime Baylor, post injury Baylor, no Baylor, a bunch of guards, Wilt Chamberlain, different coaches, etc. This wasn't a fluke, this was a peak.

For me I'm having a battle of Wade v West at the 15 spot, but I'm also afraid these kinds of debates will fly by the wayside like KG-Duncan did or Kareem-anybody did. Hopefully they don't...

[Dr Positivity]

I think I'm settling in on 07 as the year that gets my Kobe vote, when I get around to it. I kind of like the idea of 06 and 07 Kobe being the most dynamic players and I'll side with his 07 playoff performance, to go along with the fact that 06 Kobe is definitely a bit far in the one man show department

[therealbig3]

A basic comparison of box score stats between Kobe and Dr. J, per 75 possessions:

06 Kobe: 34.2 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.0 TOpg, 55.9% TS (+2.3%)
07 Kobe: 29.8 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 5.1 apg, 3.1 TOpg, 58.0% TS (+3.9%)
08 Kobe: 27.4 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 3.0 TOpg, 57.6% TS (+3.6%)
09 Kobe: 28.3 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.8 TOpg, 56.1% TS (+1.7%)

76 Erving: 25.8 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 4.4 apg, 3.3 TOpg, 56.9% TS (+5.2%)

Based on the box score, they seem kind of even. Kobe scores on more volume, and appears to be a slightly better ball handler and creator (which is true). Erving appears to be a very good scorer in his own right, and is quite a bit more efficient than Kobe, even in Kobe's most efficient season (relative to league average). He's also a much better rebounder.

I feel like Kobe's getting some love right now, because his box score looks so good in the years in question, but Erving's looks pretty awesome too. And I'm pretty sure that Erving's impact appears to be greater (I'll have to double-check). Furthermore, in terms of skill sets and in terms of fitting onto a great team...Erving led a team to a title in 76, comes to the NBA dealing with injury issues and having to fit his game with McGinnis, and still puts up impressive production and helps turn around the Sixers from a 0.32 SRS team in 76 to a 3.78 SRS team in 77. In the playoffs, his scoring reverts to "ABA-style" Dr. J, while McGinnis plays horribly, and the Sixers still manage to go to the NBA Finals against the Bill Walton-led Trailblazers. And this was mentioned by Doctor MJ: if the Sixers win that series, would we even consider Walton over Dr. J?

BTW, in those Finals, Erving was unstoppable, and averaged over 30 ppg on 60% TS. McGinnis goes for 13.0 ppg on 42% TS. In the last two games of the series, Erving goes for 37 points and 40 points, respectively, and his team loses by 6 points and 2 points, respectively.

Similar story in 78, Erving still trying to find his groove next to McGinnis, while McGinnis once again flames out in the playoffs while Erving plays quite well.

I think it becomes obvious as Erving's career goes on that he was able to fit next to talent really well, and that he was capable of being both a 1st and 2nd option at an elite level (similar to Kobe). But I think Erving was a little better in this regard. Yes, Kobe won more championships, but I think Kobe has been blessed with elite talent for all but 3 years of his career. I don't think Erving was as fortunate, and what he showed in 76, and in subsequent years in the NBA (when he could have produced at the same level as he did in the ABA, but injuries and team personnel prevented him from doing so, imo) is more impressive to me than what Kobe showed at his best. Erving didn't really seem to have a problem, both physically and mentally, in being a #1 or #2, while Kobe has shown those problems in his career.

[ardee]

Woah. Ardee -- why Kobe over Wade? McGrady? Robinson? West? Barkley? I mean, I could list a lot of players but just the wings I mentioned -- why Kobe over Wade or Mac??

And I'd like to clarify something about Jerry West because apparently no one read it or they didn't understand it:

The Lakers were a SUB .500 team in 31 games without West in 1968 (no other significant injuries or roster flux), With West, they were better than an 8 SRS team with basically the best offense in basketball history to that history, and an offense that was maybe matched once in the next 20 years. Individually, West was nearly 10% better than league average on HIGH VOLUME...then he improved on that in the PS and was a major catalyst in pushing the Celtic team that just clipped the "shoulda been a dynasty" 76ers. (When West's ankle didn't hold for G6, the team was finally blown out...)

West also basically owns the record for In/Out value in surrounding seasons, constantly missing between 12 and 30 games and effecting his teams greatly whether they had prime Baylor, post injury Baylor, no Baylor, a bunch of guards, Wilt Chamberlain, different coaches, etc. This wasn't a fluke, this was a peak.

For me I'm having a battle of Wade v West at the 15 spot, but I'm also afraid these kinds of debates will fly by the wayside like KG-Duncan did or Kareem-anybody did. Hopefully they don't...

Ok, this is going to be a bit long, ElGee.

The main premise for my putting Kobe this high is the offensive heights he led that Laker team to. They were posting 114+ ORtgs when Gasol was playing, and even though he only played 27 games they were still about 111-112 for the season I believe.

Now look at that Laker team: aside from Gasol, everyone relies on Kobe's creation.
Look at the shooter's numbers: Vujacic and Farmar had career shooting years, massive outliers compared to their other seasons.

Fisher experienced a pretty surprising rejuvenation thanks to the offensive attention Kobe was drawing. Gasol's efficiency skyrocketed when he came to the Lakers.

Breaking down the players you mentioned:

Kobe vs. Robinson: I love DRob more than anyone on the board I think, but the Playoffs are relevant. I think '94 is his best season, but he performs rather not up to the standards he set in the regular season when being guarded by Malone. 20-11 on 41% shooting is well... Not that good. That '94 regular season has an argument for being a top 5 regular season of all time, though. Meanwhile Kobe averaged 32-6-6 on 60% TS against quality opponents in '08, destroying a 7.4 SRS Jazz team to the tune of 33-7-7 with no less than Andrei Kireilinko on him.

Kobe vs. McGrady: The '03 McGrady season seems quite similar to '06 Kobe to me in terms of narrative. A putrid offensive supporting cast, Kobe/Mac has to go for 33-35 ppg on decent efficiency to keep them relevant. The difference, to me, however, is that Kobe's 06 team overachieved massively. Starting Smush Parker at PG and Kwame Brown at C, they still managed the 7th best SRS in the league.

The narrative continues. It's astounding really. The team makes the first round and is pitted against a 1st/2nd seed. They jump out to a shock 3-1 lead behind great play from their superstar. Then, it all falls away. Mac averaged 26 ppg on just 36% shooting in the last three games, all losses. And here's the thing: that Detroit team, they weren't very good. They were the 1st seed in the EC with just a 50-32 record, and they were just a 2.9 SRS team. I don't see '08 Kobe, or even '06 Kobe for that matter, struggling so much against them.

When someone loses in round 1, you can give them credit if they go all out and burn their opponents like Wade '10. But Mac really underperformed as compared to the regular season. Can't rank him over Kobe '08 the same reason I can't rank Kobe 06 over Kobe 08.

Kobe vs. Wade 09: The best statistical season by a non-Jordan 2-guard. My personal pick as his peak. The reason I can't separate it from Kobe's '06-'08 peak is that despite all those incredible numbers, the Heat still had only the 22nd best offense in the league.

Break it down further. Remove Kobe and Wade from the '06-'07 Lakers and the '09 Heat. Odom probably stands out as the best offensive player of the lot. Then after that, Wade has Marion, Haslem, Beasley and Chalmers. Kobe has.... Kwame and Smush.

Even with a comparable or even maybe a slightly better supporting cast, Wade in 09 was unable to replicate Kobe's offensive performances in terms of team offense, or even really come close (7th offense vs. 22nd offense).

Plus, Wade dropped off from his regular season against a very, very average Hawks team. This was the same Hawks team that LeBron all of disemboweled in the very next round.

Its the same story as T-Mac's 03 and to some extent Kobe 06/07. I'd say Wade's playoff performance in 09 was probably better than T-Mac's in 03 and about as good as Kobe in those two years, but Kobe's 08 WC Playoffs were on a different level: those three rounds before he played the GOAT defense were on an MJ/LeBron level.

Kobe vs. West: Now this.... This is hard. Why? Because I can't pinpoint a peak year for West.

'65: The highest scoring Playoffs ever. 40.6 ppg with Baylor out. Destroys the Bullets to the tune of 46.3 ppg (!).

'66: Drags an awful supporting cast with Baylor mostly on one leg or injured to the Finals once more. 31-7-6 regular season, sets an all-time record with 840 free throws made. Scores less but is far more efficient. 34-6-6 on 58% TS is Jordan-esque. Now this year I might have to reconsider.

However, I think everyone will agree Kobe was demonic on the defensive end in '08. Arguably his best year defensively since 2001. I don't know if we can say West had the same defensive impact. He was good at playing the passing lanes, but was he as good a man-defender and help-defender as Kobe?

2008 was a really monster defensive year for Kobe. He finished 5th in DPoY voting and played some incredible man defense. There's a video on youtube of a game when Miami was visiting Staples, and he just ruined Wade. This was Wade in his athletic prime: 26 years old, and Kobe wasn't letting him breathe.

Not using that one game as an argument but just an example of how disruptive Kobe was during that year at times.

To me, honestly, the two players I have a hard time separating from Kobe are Oscar and Barkley.

Oscar's offensive impact in those early 60s years was crazy as others have shown, plus he had some truly kickass Playoff performances.

'93 Barkley has the same narrative as Kobe. Leads a kick-ass offensive regular season team, and some monster Playoff performances. In particular, during the WCF, he was just unstoppable.

Again, these are nearly perfect seasons. Some bare separation. I would for sure put Kobe 08 over Wade's 09 and Robinson's 94, but I'm open to argument with Barkley '93, West '66 and Oscar '63/'64, and most notably Erving '76.

The last is probably the closest one for me, and I would like to hear someone's take on Erving vs Kobe.

[lorak]

@ Kobe and Dr J voters,
why KB and Doc over Oscar?

According to in/out we have Robertson had bigger impact than both of them and box score numbers confirms his greatness - with great performance vs 1963 Celtics (one of 3 best defensive teams of all time) as the best example of his brilliance (+10 TS% with high volume vs such great defensive team!)

[MisterWestside]

Based on the box score, they seem kind of even. Kobe scores on more volume, and appears to be a slightly better ball handler and creator (which is true). Erving appears to be a very good scorer in his own right, and is quite a bit more efficient than Kobe, even in Kobe's most efficient season (relative to league average). He's also a much better rebounder.

I would still give Kobe the edge on offense simply because he put up near-Erving like points per 100 possessions with more shot-creation. Estimated ortg/%poss/drtg numbers for Erving and Bryant (normalized for 2009 stat environment):

Erving
1976 120.0 29.1 101.0

Bryant
2006 115.4 36.5 107.1
2007 116.9 32.6 110.6
2008 115.4 30.6 105.1
2009 115.7 31.1 106.5

However, Erving was still superb on offense and was also better on defense, so it's close (overall, his 76 season >>> Kobe's 07, 08, and 09). I'd probably side with Erving if he has a decisive edge over Kobe in on-off numbers.

[GrangerDanger]

Woah. Ardee -- why Kobe over Wade? McGrady? Robinson? West? Barkley? I mean, I could list a lot of players but just the wings I mentioned -- why Kobe over Wade or Mac??

And I'd like to clarify something about Jerry West because apparently no one read it or they didn't understand it:

The Lakers were a SUB .500 team in 31 games without West in 1968 (no other significant injuries or roster flux), With West, they were better than an 8 SRS team with basically the best offense in basketball history to that history, and an offense that was maybe matched once in the next 20 years. Individually, West was nearly 10% better than league average on HIGH VOLUME...then he improved on that in the PS and was a major catalyst in pushing the Celtic team that just clipped the "shoulda been a dynasty" 76ers. (When West's ankle didn't hold for G6, the team was finally blown out...)

West also basically owns the record for In/Out value in surrounding seasons, constantly missing between 12 and 30 games and effecting his teams greatly whether they had prime Baylor, post injury Baylor, no Baylor, a bunch of guards, Wilt Chamberlain, different coaches, etc. This wasn't a fluke, this was a peak.

For me I'm having a battle of Wade v West at the 15 spot, but I'm also afraid these kinds of debates will fly by the wayside like KG-Duncan did or Kareem-anybody did. Hopefully they don't...

Why do you want people to vote for a season where West missed 31 games? That's a pretty big blackmark, and a star missing that amount of games can easily cost a less talented team to miss the playoffs.

[SDChargers#1]

Vote: '09 Kobe

The year Kobe put it all together. Played great in the regular season and turned it up a notch in the playoffs. Averaging 32/7/6 in the Finals.

[ardee]

Woah. Ardee -- why Kobe over Wade? McGrady? Robinson? West? Barkley? I mean, I could list a lot of players but just the wings I mentioned -- why Kobe over Wade or Mac??

And I'd like to clarify something about Jerry West because apparently no one read it or they didn't understand it:

The Lakers were a SUB .500 team in 31 games without West in 1968 (no other significant injuries or roster flux), With West, they were better than an 8 SRS team with basically the best offense in basketball history to that history, and an offense that was maybe matched once in the next 20 years. Individually, West was nearly 10% better than league average on HIGH VOLUME...then he improved on that in the PS and was a major catalyst in pushing the Celtic team that just clipped the "shoulda been a dynasty" 76ers. (When West's ankle didn't hold for G6, the team was finally blown out...)

West also basically owns the record for In/Out value in surrounding seasons, constantly missing between 12 and 30 games and effecting his teams greatly whether they had prime Baylor, post injury Baylor, no Baylor, a bunch of guards, Wilt Chamberlain, different coaches, etc. This wasn't a fluke, this was a peak.

For me I'm having a battle of Wade v West at the 15 spot, but I'm also afraid these kinds of debates will fly by the wayside like KG-Duncan did or Kareem-anybody did. Hopefully they don't...

Why do you want people to vote for a season where West missed 31 games? That's a pretty big blackmark, and a star missing that amount of games can easily cost a less talented team to miss the playoffs.

Obviously he's not propping '68. When he says "West also basically owns the record for In/Out value in surrounding seasons", I'm pretty sure he's propping one of '66, '69 and '70, and this '68 example was just to show the kind of impact a prime West was having.

[drza]

@ Kobe and Dr J voters,
why KB and Doc over Oscar?

According to in/out we have Robertson had bigger impact than both of them and box score numbers confirms his greatness - with great performance vs 1963 Celtics (one of 3 best defensive teams of all time) as the best example of his brilliance (+10 TS% with high volume vs such great defensive team!)

At the moment I'm definitely teetering towards Oscar.

[ardee]

The more I read the arguments, to be honest, I feel Oscar needs to be given more consideration.

I wish we could get a one day extension on this. I never thought it would be so hard to decide on voting after the top 10-12

Really stuck between Bryant, Erving and Oscar right now.

[Doctor MJ]

Why do you want people to vote for a season where West missed 31 games? That's a pretty big blackmark, and a star missing that amount of games can easily cost a less talented team to miss the playoffs.

Obviously he's not propping '68. When he says "West also basically owns the record for In/Out value in surrounding seasons", I'm pretty sure he's propping one of '66, '69 and '70, and this '68 example was just to show the kind of impact a prime West was having.

I wouldn't be so sure. A lot of posters are pretty lenient about missed time in the regular season.

[An Unbiased Fan]

The more I read the arguments, to be honest, I feel Oscar needs to be given more consideration.

I wish we could get a one day extension on this. I never thought it would be so hard to decide on voting after the top 10-12

Really stuck between Bryant, Erving and Oscar right now.

I frankly think Oscar's peak(1964 for me), could have been Top 5. He was #2 in scoring behind 64' Wilt, #2 in TS%, #1 in apg BY FAR, led Cincy to a great offense and a 4.43 SRS, while winning MVP over Russell/Wilt at their near peaks. I thought Bryant was borderline Top 10, and Doc around this #12-#14 area(though I would have had a few others who were already picked lower than they ended up).

I will say that the picks so far have been a bit center heavy.
PG - 1
SG - 1
SF - 2
PF - 2
C - 6

Which is to be expected since many prefer bigs over smalls. In fact, MJ is the only player under 6'8 picked. Apparently size matters(yes I know, lame joke).

[Doctor MJ]

@ Kobe and Dr J voters,
why KB and Doc over Oscar?

According to in/out we have Robertson had bigger impact than both of them and box score numbers confirms his greatness - with great performance vs 1963 Celtics (one of 3 best defensive teams of all time) as the best example of his brilliance (+10 TS% with high volume vs such great defensive team!)

Hmm, well first, generally speaking, yes I think Oscar AND West belong in the conversation. (Kinda weirded out that Oscar's got the clear edge over West in the mind's of some)

Why do I side with Doc? Well for one, it's strange you talk about Oscar's in/out edge when in the year's relating to Doc's peak he never missed a game. 4 years in a row, no games missed.

Of course, we did get to see him switch teams, and as mentioned, the Nets went from winning the ABA, to being far worse than anybody in the ABA...as one might expect when they lost their best offensive and defensive player - which is something I've never heard anyone claim of Oscar. Oscar of course being known for being on the most hideous defenses in history.

Re: Oscar vs West. I've tended to go Oscar career, West peak for a while. The reality for West is that he did have injury issues, and that he was paired with Baylor who he was a terrible fit with. On the other hand, the man was an explosive scorer like few in history, and his defense is legendary for a perimeter player with his super-long arms. (It's basically a given that if they had formally tracked the stat back then, West would be the all-time record holder in steals, and he might have the block record for perimeter players as well.)

I can actually see a pretty good case for West over Doc in principle here, but I have trouble championing anyone year because of the aforementioned issues.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Why do you want people to vote for a season where West missed 31 games? That's a pretty big blackmark, and a star missing that amount of games can easily cost a less talented team to miss the playoffs.

Obviously he's not propping '68. When he says "West also basically owns the record for In/Out value in surrounding seasons", I'm pretty sure he's propping one of '66, '69 and '70, and this '68 example was just to show the kind of impact a prime West was having.

I wouldn't be so sure. A lot of posters are pretty lenient about missed time in the regular season.

I due think this tends to give an unfair disadvantage to durable players. By rule, pretty much every team will suffer a great amount if an impactful player is out of the lineup. However, the degree to which they will miss the player is heavily dependent on the team's off/def system, roster depth/adaptability, SOS in games missed, coaching ability(some coaches suck at adjusting), and that player's utility to the team.

So when we look at with/without numbers, I'm a big believer that they reflect those factors a lot more than simply a player's impact. For example, the Suns were rather horrible without Nash during their SSOL days, but it stands to reason that much of this was due to the fact that they had no one who could duplicate his role in that system. If he had Lin as a backup over Barbosa, PHX wouldn't be as good, but they wouldn't completely suck either. Meanwhile, players who player nearly every game, really don't get this argument. Many times they play stretches where they're banged up, but don't get the benefit of a sample size big enough to show noteworthy with/without stats.

My personal peak for West would be 1966. I tend to have him in the #17-#20 range. West's strength to me was his overall career, but I tend to temper his numbers a bit because of the era he played in, and the overall quality of guards in the league. Many of whom who dribbled with one hand, and were slow/athletic. West's skillset/ability would translate very well to today's game, but that can't be said of 90%+ of his opponents on the perimeter back then. And unlike Oscar, West isn't dropping an apg that blows everyone away, or grabbing around 10 boards a game. I think 66' West vs 09'/10' Wade though would be a great debate.

[lorak]

Just for fun.

Robertson vs 1963 Celtics (3rd best defensive team of all time, -9.1 drtg relatively to league average) averaged: 33.4 PPG, 12.4 RPG, ~8.5 APG and 58.1 TS% (+8.8 relatively to league average!)

Jerry West, against the same Celtics, averaged in the finals: 29. 5 PPG, ~7.0 RPG, ~5.3 APG and 52.2 TS% (+2.9)

Kobe against similar defense (2008 Celtics, -8.6 drtg) averaged in the finals: 25.7 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 5.0 APG and 50.5 TS% (-3.5!)

Dr J never in the playoffs faced defense close to that level.

Of course Oscar's and West's PPG, RPG and APG numbers are affected by pace so in that area Kobe doesn't look as bad in comparison with them as raw numbers suggest. But efficiency is different story. Bryant is much worse than Logo and Robertson and Oscar himself is also much better than West.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Just for fun.

Robertson vs 1963 Celtics (3rd best defensive team of all time, -9.1 drtg relatively to league average) averaged: 33.4 PPG, 12.4 RPG, ~8.5 APG and 58.1 TS% (+8.8 relatively to league average!)

Jerry West, against the same Celtics, averaged in the finals: 29. 5 PPG, ~7.0 RPG, ~5.3 APG and 52.2 TS% (+2.9)

Kobe against similar defense (2008 Celtics, -8.6 drtg) averaged in the finals: 25.7 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 5.0 APG and 50.5 TS% (-3.5!)

Dr J never in the playoffs faced defense close to that level.

Of course Oscar's and West's PPG, RPG and APG numbers are affected by pace so in that area Kobe doesn't look as bad in comparison with them as raw numbers suggest. But efficiency is different story. Bryant is much worse than Logo and Robertson and Oscar himself is also much better than West.

To be fair, the quality of perimeter defense was strikingly different. I'm doubting that Cousy or Sam Jones would have bothered Kobe much either, and Hondo was a rookie. In the WCF Kobe did quite well against the Spurs and with Bowen guarding him. i would also point out that Baylor scored 33.8 ppg in the Finals too, which suggest that their strength didn't lie on the perimeter, but in the middle with Russell.

The tough thing about comparing the 63' Celtics to 08' Celtics is that team defensive schemes are far more advanced today.

[lorak]

Just for fun.

Robertson vs 1963 Celtics (3rd best defensive team of all time, -9.1 drtg relatively to league average) averaged: 33.4 PPG, 12.4 RPG, ~8.5 APG and 58.1 TS% (+8.8 relatively to league average!)

Jerry West, against the same Celtics, averaged in the finals: 29. 5 PPG, ~7.0 RPG, ~5.3 APG and 52.2 TS% (+2.9)

Kobe against similar defense (2008 Celtics, -8.6 drtg) averaged in the finals: 25.7 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 5.0 APG and 50.5 TS% (-3.5!)

Dr J never in the playoffs faced defense close to that level.

Of course Oscar's and West's PPG, RPG and APG numbers are affected by pace so in that area Kobe doesn't look as bad in comparison with them as raw numbers suggest. But efficiency is different story. Bryant is much worse than Logo and Robertson and Oscar himself is also much better than West.

To be fair, the quality of perimeter defense was strikingly different. I'm doubting that Cousy or Sam Jones would have bothered Kobe much either, and Hondo was a rookie. In the WCF Kobe did quite well against the Spurs and with Bowen guarding him.

Spurs were very good defensively, but still much worse than Celtics (-5.7 drtg vs -8.6 and -9.1). And of course Bowen was 36 years old... Besides 1on1 matchups don't matter much (and who BTW was guarding Kobe during 2008 finals? Not Allen? defender worse than Sam Jones...)

Look, Kobe faced similar (to 08 and 63 Celtics) defense in 2004 playoffs. Against Spurs (-8.8 drtg) he averaged 26.3 PPG on 53.4 TS% (+1.8).

The tough thing about comparing the 63' Celtics to 08' Celtics is that team defensive schemes are far more advanced today.

And offensive schemes aren't too? So offensive players don't have advantage over players from 60s?

[ElGee]

Yes, I'm advocating for 68 West. If you haven't checked out my research on how injuries affect title odds, you should do so. In short, missing time barely matters. If you're worried about extreme outliers like "they won't make the PS on a crappy team," that's like saying "91 MJ won't win a title on the 12 Bobcats...so I don't want 91 MJ." Crappy teams aren't winning titles anyway, so with West or without him for 39 games it doesn't matter...

@Doc -- look at 1968 West more closely. Definitely the season to champion as his peak IMO. Just a ridiculous offensive season.

Here are West's In/Out runs:

1963 West In (54g) 5.5 SRS
1963 West Out (26g) -2.1 SRS

1967 West In (65g) 1.4 SRS
1967 West Out (16g) -5.4 SRS

1968 West In (51g) 8.1 SRS
1968 West Out (31g) -0.5 SRS

1969 West In (61g) 5.4 SRS
1969 West Out (21g) 0.7 SRS

1970 West In (90g) 3.8 SRS *including PS
1970 West Out (8g) -8.6 SRS

1970 West In w Baylor In (36g) 2.1 SRS *including PS
1970 West In w Baylor and Wilt In (29g) 3.9 SRS

1971 West In (69g) 5.1 SRS
1971 West Out (13g) -7.2 SRS
1971 West Out (25g) -1.9 SRS *including PS

1973 West In (69g) 9.8 SRS
1973 West Out (13g) -1.0 SRS

This is a guy knocking on the door of Nash, Walton, LeBron, Thurmond, super-value to his team. There's a lot that looks impressive there, consistently. To me, I'm left trying to untangle the following:

-how did West's teams perform at their best?
-how did West's teams perform without him (if available)
-how did West's teams look ITO of roster, health and coaching?
-how did West's individual statistics look in conjunction with that information?

As you can see, the 1968 team was RIDICULOUS with West in the lineup. This was with someone not regarded as a coaching genius, with good lineup continuity around him, and an offensive slant (eg Clark, Goodrich, Baylor) and it may have, based on plausible explanations, produced an offensive level that was rarely matched until the 3-point era. This is huge huge stuff.

Then you look at what West did individually. He set a career high in FG% that he'd never come close to (a weird drop in FT% that year). This led to a career and league-best 59% TS%, 9.2% better than league average! In the postseason, he averaged a career-best 59.6% TS% on 31-5.4-.5.5 and a career-best 52.7% FG%.

In the Finals against Boston (-4.9 est DRtg), he had 35 in G2 to steal serve from the Celtics. 33 in G3, 38 in a G4 win to even the series. The Lakers thought an 8-day layoff before game 1 cost them the game, and then lost G5 in Boston in OT 120-117...West had 35 more in the game. West sprained his ankle at the end of G4 and it caught up to him in G6, and without an effective West (8-19 FG), the Lakers were blown out in the first half.

To me, ALL the evidence is pointing to 1968 basically.

[lorak]

And because I think Oscar has no chance to win this time, my vote goes to: Dr J '76 (who is next on my list after Robertson)