2012-13 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[nunemouse]

Being out with Lee makes him look worse but I've seen no numbers that make Curry not look like a trash defender. When I watch him he looks like a trash defender. Therefore I believe he's a trash defender. He's also ranked 365th on mysynergysports. According to 82gamesches gives up a 16.5 PER to PGs (average for PGs this season was 12.2). He's a very bad defender.

Why are you using opponent production? He gives us 16.5, sure. But Duncan gave up 14.4, Howard gave up 14.8, Marc gave up 15.1. Are you saying that these guys are crappy defenders because their opponents are close to league average PER? Lebron gave up 13.8 an Wade gave up 11.8. Does this mean that Wade is a better defender than Lebron?

He was ranked 365 for spot up. Carmelo is ranked 638 overall. Lebron is ranked 723 overall. This should indicate to you how that website should not be used for defensive evaluations of players.

Most of these stats anyways come from the regular season. Why are you citing them when the crux of Curry's RPOY argument has been centered around his post season play? Furthermore, why are you holding mediocre PG defense against him, while ignoring the fact that a lot of other candidates for the top 4/5 spots have lackluster defense (Harden, Melo. Especially since great defense at those positions are more impactful than PG defense).

[therealbig3]

My lord the West is in chaos.

Speaking of the West, Stephen Curry has cemented himself as the second best PG in the game imo. And unlike every other elite PG, I think he can actually challenge CP3 at some point in the future. He's got an IQ that I don't really think anyone else has.

I love me some Steph, but is he really a that high of an IQ player?

His talent is obviously insane, as is his current play. But I don't see much offensive genius in him at all, to this point. He's a talented and skillful passer but I don't think he's learned how to facilitate and manipulate the defense, *yet*. Which is why I expect him to become an MVP caliber player, when he learns how to read the defense and linger in the paint like CP3 and Nash.

Can you explain this crazy high IQ you see in him? I don't see it yet, and that's exciting to me.

It's not that I think he's a crazy high IQ player, it's that I don't think any of the other PGs are really all that high IQ outside of Paul. I should have clarified...when I say he has an IQ that nobody else really has, I mean every PG outside of Paul (and obviously excluding Nash...I don't think he's in the elite PG discussion anymore, but I'm sure his IQ is still extraordinarily high). D-Will, maybe, but he's not all THAT high IQ...I'm not high on Rondo's or Westbrook's IQ either.

But yeah, I think he's a pretty smart player, and with his shooting, he doesn't necessarily have to be on CP3's level of IQ in order to match him or surpass him as an overall offensive player. His court vision and passing is really underrated, and I disagree...I think he's really good at picking apart defenses. He's really been fantastic in these playoffs at recognizing when to attack the defense once he kills them with jumpers, imo.

So are you saying you don't think he's anywhere close to his peak yet? Isn't that...scary, lol?

[E-Balla]

Being out with Lee makes him look worse but I've seen no numbers that make Curry not look like a trash defender. When I watch him he looks like a trash defender. Therefore I believe he's a trash defender. He's also ranked 365th on mysynergysports. According to 82gamesches gives up a 16.5 PER to PGs (average for PGs this season was 12.2). He's a very bad defender.

Why are you using opponent production? He gives us 16.5, sure. But Duncan gave up 14.4, Howard gave up 14.8, Marc gave up 15.1. Are you saying that these guys are crappy defenders because their opponents are close to league average PER? Lebron gave up 13.8 an Wade gave up 11.8. Does this mean that Wade is a better defender than Lebron?

He was ranked 365 for spot up. Carmelo is ranked 638 overall. Lebron is ranked 723 overall. This should indicate to you how that website should not be used for defensive evaluations of players.

Most of these stats anyways come from the regular season. Why are you citing them when the crux of Curry's RPOY argument has been centered around his post season play? Furthermore, why are you holding mediocre PG defense against him, while ignoring the fact that a lot of other candidates for the top 4/5 spots have lackluster defense (Harden, Melo. Especially since great defense at those positions are more impactful than PG defense).

Melo is ranked 223rd and Lebron is 149th. There aren't 600 players in the league man. And that's Curry's overall ranking.

Also I usually never look at those numbers but now I'm searching the Internet for any number that says Curry isn't a bad defender. Two different people have called me out in this thread regarding his defense with no evidence that he's good defensively (most likely because it doesn't exist).

[Rapcity_11]

It's not that I think he's a crazy high IQ player, it's that I don't think any of the other PGs are really all that high IQ outside of Paul. I should have clarified...when I say he has an IQ that nobody else really has, I mean every PG outside of Paul (and obviously excluding Nash...I don't think he's in the elite PG discussion anymore, but I'm sure his IQ is still extraordinarily high). D-Will, maybe, but he's not all THAT high IQ...I'm not high on Rondo's or Westbrook's IQ either.

Ah, okay I see what you mean now. And I would agree he's right up there with anyone other than Paul.

But yeah, I think he's a pretty smart player, and with his shooting, he doesn't necessarily have to be on CP3's level of IQ in order to match him or surpass him as an overall offensive player. His court vision and passing is really underrated, and I disagree...I think he's really good at picking apart defenses. He's really been fantastic in these playoffs at recognizing when to attack the defense once he kills them with jumpers, imo.

I still see him in the simple phase of PG play; shoot when he has space, drive when he can, kick to shooters, etc. Everything 1 pass away. He's so good as is that he's still awesome that way, but there's still a lot of room to grow. I mean the Warriors still go to Jack for ISO's pretty often and in a few years that will seem insane.

So are you saying you don't think he's anywhere close to his peak yet? Isn't that...scary, lol?

Haha yes, I really hope he isn't near his peak. Definitely terrifying.

(Read Zach Lowe's piece from today if you haven't yet)

[Sinant]

To the Curry crowd: How would you rank 2013 Curry vs 2011 Rose? Worth it's own thread? Not close yet?

[E-Balla]

To the Curry crowd: How would you rank 2013 Curry vs 2011 Rose? Worth it's own thread? Not close yet?

Definetly worth a thread. I'll still take Rose but Curry is right there.

[Rasho_libre]

Guys stop arguing with the guy with Austin powes in in avy, it's th Same that said 13 Lebron is the same as 05 Lebron with a little more defence. I currently don't have melo in my top 5 either the playoffs are exposing him as a one dimensional blackhole on offence. Tha provides 0 defensive impact, and nothing but high volume scoring and shooting at mediocre to below average efficiency.

If we're counting both rounds so far and the RS as a pedestal up to now.my list. Is

1 Lebron

2 Durant

3 cp3
4 Duncan
5 wade

[MeloMIracle]

Guys stop arguing with the guy with Austin powes in in avy, it's th Same that said 13 Lebron is the same as 05 Lebron with a little more defence. I currently don't have melo in my top 5 either the playoffs are exposing him as a one dimensional blackhole on offence. Tha provides 0 defensive impact, and nothing but high volume scoring and shooting at mediocre to below average efficiency.

If we're counting both rounds so far and the RS as a pedestal up to now.my list. Is

1 Lebron

2 Durant

3 cp3
4 Duncan
5 wade

True hater, I am positive he doesn't even watch games because Melo is a good defender in the playoffs and an improved defender overall.

[E-Balla]

Guys stop arguing with the guy with Austin powes in in avy, it's th Same that said 13 Lebron is the same as 05 Lebron with a little more defence. I currently don't have melo in my top 5 either the playoffs are exposing him as a one dimensional blackhole on offence. Tha provides 0 defensive impact, and nothing but high volume scoring and shooting at mediocre to below average efficiency.

If we're counting both rounds so far and the RS as a pedestal up to now.my list. Is

1 Lebron

2 Durant

3 cp3
4 Duncan
5 wade

Are you just blindly hating on Carmelo or do you have some type of selective vision issue? Melo's been exposed in your eyes (he's averaging 29/7/2 with a 100 ORTG) even though anyone that's seen him play all year will say this is the best he's played defensively and that for most games he did his job and played within the scheme, and at the same time you have Wade (13/5/6 with a 99 ORTG) over him. Wade has been the 5th best player on his own team so far and he's not picking it up anytime soon.

[nunemouse]

Wade doesn't belong in anyone's top 5 so far (though I'd put him top 5 RS, hes stinking it up in the PS).

[ardee]

It'll be interesting to see if Parker can work his way back onto ballots.... Because yesterday's game was the textbook example of what people expected from him in the POs.

[Doctor MJ]

Ok then people need to stop ridiculing me for my list then, I said what I said because that is MY list of who I think is top5.

LOL, what? You were ridiculing other people first by acting shocked that they were ranking CP3 over Melo. Most objective arguments heavily favor CP3, so ranking him over Melo isn't a minority opinion or an outlandish opinion.

You can go with Melo if you want, but logical analysis is really on CP3's side here, so don't act offended when other people are taking him over Melo.

It's not just cp3 but people are putting harden, curry(he's playing awesome right now but you can't really put him ahead until we see how these playoffs go), duncan, howard, wade, kobe, deron williams,parker, westbrook all ahead of Melo....those guys are all good but Melo has a much bigger impact on games than all of them.

You have a real problem staying focused on a given topic.

You're whining that people are taking issue with your opinion...but you opened the door by knocking others opinions.

Now someone reminds you of this and you jump right to knocking others again without seeming to internalize at all that the only reason you were being spoken to at all is to point out your hypocrisy which is at the root of how you started getting attacked.

Stop trying to look to defend yourself with every post. Learn instead to recognize when someone is pointing something out about your behavior that is causing you to be frustrated.

[Doctor MJ]

To the Curry crowd: How would you rank 2013 Curry vs 2011 Rose? Worth it's own thread? Not close yet?

Not so much "not close" as it is "not ready". Any time a guy breaks out in the playoffs, I want to at least see the rest of the playoffs before I make a clear statement.

What I will say though is that Rose didn't make my Top 5 in the 2011 RPOY, so it's not exactly crazy to think Curry could surpass him this year for me.

[bondom34]

Guys stop arguing with the guy with Austin powes in in avy, it's th Same that said 13 Lebron is the same as 05 Lebron with a little more defence. I currently don't have melo in my top 5 either the playoffs are exposing him as a one dimensional blackhole on offence. Tha provides 0 defensive impact, and nothing but high volume scoring and shooting at mediocre to below average efficiency.

If we're counting both rounds so far and the RS as a pedestal up to now.my list. Is

1 Lebron

2 Durant

3 cp3
4 Duncan
5 wade

Are you just blindly hating on Carmelo or do you have some type of selective vision issue? Melo's been exposed in your eyes (he's averaging 29/7/2 with a 100 ORTG) even though anyone that's seen him play all year will say this is the best he's played defensively and that for most games he did his job and played within the scheme, and at the same time you have Wade (13/5/6 with a 99 ORTG) over him. Wade has been the 5th best player on his own team so far and he's not picking it up anytime soon.

The thread is based on the whole season, and I can't speak for him, but don't think he's "blindly hating". For the most part, people agree the top 2 are LBJ and Durant. After that, there's a gap, then a toss up between Melo, CP3, Duncan, Curry, Wade, Harden, and a few others. Wade's full season was at least comparable to Melo, and Melo's been hot/cold in the POs, while Wade's pretty much been cold. That being said Wade's full season was for a better team so that is figured in as well. I'd say its debatable where these guys rate after the top 2, but hardly "hating".

[HeartBreakKid]

Wade was better than Carmelo during the regular season. Tbh, I thought Wade was playing basically the same ball he had been for his career after the slump he hit, just less scoring since he's the second option. Naturally, Wade is not going to get the credit he deserves since James is his partner, but he was a huge part of that historic winning streak the Heat were on.

Wade does suck in the post season, but at least he's hurt. Melo has just been inconsistent as hell.

[MeloMIracle]

Wade was better than Carmelo during the regular season. Tbh, I thought Wade was playing basically the same ball he had been for his career after the slump he hit, just less scoring since he's the second option. Naturally, Wade is not going to get the credit he deserves since James is his partner, but he was a huge part of that historic winning streak the Heat were on.

Wade does suck in the post season, but at least he's hurt. Melo has just been inconsistent as hell.

Melo is just as hurt with his bum shoulder as Wade is.

[E-Balla]

Guys stop arguing with the guy with Austin powes in in avy, it's th Same that said 13 Lebron is the same as 05 Lebron with a little more defence. I currently don't have melo in my top 5 either the playoffs are exposing him as a one dimensional blackhole on offence. Tha provides 0 defensive impact, and nothing but high volume scoring and shooting at mediocre to below average efficiency.

If we're counting both rounds so far and the RS as a pedestal up to now.my list. Is

1 Lebron

2 Durant

3 cp3
4 Duncan
5 wade

Are you just blindly hating on Carmelo or do you have some type of selective vision issue? Melo's been exposed in your eyes (he's averaging 29/7/2 with a 100 ORTG) even though anyone that's seen him play all year will say this is the best he's played defensively and that for most games he did his job and played within the scheme, and at the same time you have Wade (13/5/6 with a 99 ORTG) over him. Wade has been the 5th best player on his own team so far and he's not picking it up anytime soon.

The thread is based on the whole season, and I can't speak for him, but don't think he's "blindly hating". For the most part, people agree the top 2 are LBJ and Durant. After that, there's a gap, then a toss up between Melo, CP3, Duncan, Curry, Wade, Harden, and a few others. Wade's full season was at least comparable to Melo, and Melo's been hot/cold in the POs, while Wade's pretty much been cold. That being said Wade's full season was for a better team so that is figured in as well. I'd say its debatable where these guys rate after the top 2, but hardly "hating".

I understand why some will put Wade over him (as little sense as it makes) but this guy has been randomly bashing Melo and Kobe for a while. I'm not calling him a troll for this one post but for many.

[MeloMIracle]

LOL, what? You were ridiculing other people first by acting shocked that they were ranking CP3 over Melo. Most objective arguments heavily favor CP3, so ranking him over Melo isn't a minority opinion or an outlandish opinion.

You can go with Melo if you want, but logical analysis is really on CP3's side here, so don't act offended when other people are taking him over Melo.

It's not just cp3 but people are putting harden, curry(he's playing awesome right now but you can't really put him ahead until we see how these playoffs go), duncan, howard, wade, kobe, deron williams,parker, westbrook all ahead of Melo....those guys are all good but Melo has a much bigger impact on games than all of them.

You have a real problem staying focused on a given topic.

You're whining that people are taking issue with your opinion...but you opened the door by knocking others opinions.

Now someone reminds you of this and you jump right to knocking others again without seeming to internalize at all that the only reason you were being spoken to at all is to point out your hypocrisy which is at the root of how you started getting attacked.

Stop trying to look to defend yourself with every post. Learn instead to recognize when someone is pointing something out about your behavior that is causing you to be frustrated.

I didn't start going after other people first they came at me first, try looking at what was said.

[Doctor MJ]

You have a real problem staying focused on a given topic.

You're whining that people are taking issue with your opinion...but you opened the door by knocking others opinions.

Now someone reminds you of this and you jump right to knocking others again without seeming to internalize at all that the only reason you were being spoken to at all is to point out your hypocrisy which is at the root of how you started getting attacked.

Stop trying to look to defend yourself with every post. Learn instead to recognize when someone is pointing something out about your behavior that is causing you to be frustrated.

I didn't start going after other people first they came at me first, try looking at what was said.

Y'know I apologize. Checking again, you did go after others but it did happen after they went after you. I had forgotten the timeline.

[nunemouse]

The thread is based on the whole season, and I can't speak for him, but don't think he's "blindly hating". For the most part, people agree the top 2 are LBJ and Durant. After that, there's a gap, then a toss up between Melo, CP3, Duncan, Curry, Wade, Harden, and a few others. Wade's full season was at least comparable to Melo, and Melo's been hot/cold in the POs, while Wade's pretty much been cold. That being said Wade's full season was for a better team so that is figured in as well. I'd say its debatable where these guys rate after the top 2, but hardly "hating".

I understand why some will put Wade over him (as little sense as it makes) but this guy has been randomly bashing Melo and Kobe for a while. I'm not calling him a troll for this one post but for many.

No, he isn't "randomly basing Melo and Kobe". He made his points pretty clear and didn't come with a preconceived notion of putting a particular player down. I find it funny that you call him out on being a troll for posts that explain Wade > Melo in RS (and it being a murkier picture in PS due to shortcomings of both, more so Wade), but do not point out the greater asininity of a particular poster that you share a favorite player with (Argued that Melo => Paul).