RealGM Top 100 List #2

[MacGill]

[quote="ronnymac2"]Vote: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

His competition was staggering every year. He played in the Golden Era of the center position. The position was never deeper with All-NBA talent than in the 1970's. KAJ won those MVPs when matching up against these players for the majority of the time:

1970: Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes,
1971: Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond, Elvin Hayes
1972: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes, Jerry Lucas (replacing an injured Reed at C for the Knicks), Bob Lanier
1973: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed/Jerry Lucas tandem at C, Bob Lanier, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes
1974: Dave Cowens, Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, Nate Thurmond, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes
1975: Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes, Bob Lanier
1976: Bob McAdoo, Bob Lanier, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes,
1977: Bill Walton, Artis Gilmore, Bob Lanier, Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes, Bob McAdoo
1978: Bill Walton, Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes, Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, Bob Lanier, Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo
1979: Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes, Robert Parish, Bob Lanier, Jack Sikma
1980: Moses Malone, Wes Unseld/Elvin Hayes, Robert Parish, Jack Sikma

I left off down years or injury-plagued years of centers where they maybe played 40 games. This is incredible competition in an era where the offensive pivot and man-to-man defense in the post was a featured strategy.

You've got the best centers ever here. Peak Walton, prime Moses, NBA-prime Gilmore, McAdoo's godly peak, prime defensive force Wilt, the super frontcourt of Hayes/Unseld, GOAT man post defender in Thurmond. Lanier nearly every damn year. Cowens with Silas beside him. Peak Willis Reed. This doesn't even get into solid centers like Elmore Smith.

You've got variety. KAJ saw everybody. Faced frontcourt-led championship-caliber squads. Contenders: Wilt's Lakers, Reed's Knicks, Unseld/Hayes Bullets, Walton's Blazers. Cowen's Celtics. These were legit title contenders.

I don't want to downplay Bill Russell's competition, and I don't need to. But this is how I see it. Russell's competition until Wilt arrived wouldn't have made an ALL-NBA team at C in the 1970s. Best frontcourt player there was was Bob Pettit, and he was more of a PF (really the first prototype PF, like Karl Malone really). He wasn't a center.

You've got prime Wilt. Bellamy comes in in 1962. Thurmond becomes a starter in 1965. Prime Willis Reed after Bellamy thankfully was traded from NYK so Reed could flourish at C. Hayes and Unseld one year. Luke Jackson, Zelmo Beaty, and Wayne Embry were solid, though in my opinion a clear level below the great Cs of the 1970s. In my opinion, Lanier alone was better than Bellamy ever was. Not by much, but pretty clearly.

Russell faced Wilt, Thurmond, and Reed when they were on legit contenders, no doubt.

I would say Kareem faced greater competition consistently, and from the get-go. He was pushed into facing all-timers in the playoffs early in his career. Young guy facing Wilt and Thurmond and Reed in the playoffs. What great pivots was Russell's battling in his third year in the league? I honestly don't see any.

I'm not saying Russell's competition was weak in general. It just wasn't as good as KAJ's.[quote]




As per normal, fantastic post ronnymac2. I call the 70's the last era of basketball really being a big man's game. Dr. J doing his thing (just more popular than Oscar) that would inspire players everywhere to become a dominant wing player (as the game was much more popular by this time) and that the focal point didn't always have to be inside out.

The problem I have here is something isn't adding up with him. Almost his entire prime, while playing great ball he falls short in translating that into ultimate team success. I know that isn't how we judge a players ability but it's strange that of all the ATG's...he is the only one who truly never dominated at that level. He didn't, and when up against the ATG's, I am not sure I can ignore that only because I am not convinced that the 70's were the golden years of the center position.

We know about luck and circumstance, of course, but sometimes a player needs to make their own luck. Let's run down the list for a moment:

Russell - no question of domination
MJ - no question of domination
Magic - no question of domination
Shaq - no question of domination
Duncan - no question of domination
Hakeem - no question of domination

Each of these players had some up and downs....disapointments and successes but I recall reading some articles back in the late 70's on KAJ around this. Is it a coincedence that all players above dominated to the highest degree in their respective peaks? Correct me if I am wrong but Walton's Blazer's are one of the only ATG team I ever hear about from that era when we discuss all-time best teams. I keep hearing about these great center's....yet when will the discussions on them individually start here? 20's-25's? So I can't help but say...like MJ had no 90's direct rival...but he left his legacy on the game but 3-peating twice. KAJ gave an ATG top 10 performance but why aren't we questioning more the trend we see in his stats like we have done Wilt?

The thing is, we want to praise KAJ for his insane longevity...and rightfully so, but then with that, I want to know why his game couldn't translate into the successes that the above mentioned being the undisputed #1? Posters want to say Hakeem, never played like his peak his whole career..but no one can question him at his absolute best and the same goes with all the above. Again, talking about the #2 all-time...KAJ's longevity allowed him to collect the accolades to be in the discussion (this doesn't change how great he was) but it's the manner in which they came that has me scratching my head.

[MisterWestside]

There are questions about prime Abdul-Jabbar's dominance? Could anyone elaborate on what tool in his skillset wasn't dominant?

[Notanoob]

If Bill is truly the best rebounder of all time, he should reasonably get 18-19 rebounds a game, as his rebounding rate was similar to Dennis Rodman's (who got about that much), 17 rebounds at least. That is incredible impact, like think about how much impact Love has on boards, anyone who thinks that doesn't more than make up for his offensive short comings is crazy. Not to mention Rodman also used to stat pad, something Bill never did.

Do we know that he really was the best rebounder though? Pace adjust his numbers, then adjust again to account for the fact that there would be fewer rebounds to grab in a slower game. Are his rebounding numbers that impressive then? I'm very sure that someone has figured these numbers out, but I'm not sure where to find them.

He would probably get 4-5 blocks a game if he truly was the GOAT shot blocker. He has the physical attributes (6'11, he is taller than Howard and Olajuwon when he stands next to them). He certainly has the basketball IQ, as he had essentially created the fundamentals to modern shot blocking. People say well teams can make it up by taking 3s, while that diminishes his impact some what, it still doesn't change the fact that taking away the paint with such incredible efficiency is ungodly impact.

On top of that, Bill has the horizontal game. If one were to concede that he has amazing agility (and there are many accounts that he has this, as many perimeter players from his era would admit that Russell could switch on to them), how does this not make him prime to be a great pick and role player? PNR is much bigger now than it was then, so if he were teleported to this era and had a chance to assimilate, wouldn't he be one of the best PNR defenders, which is probably the most important thing for a modern big? It's why people talk about Dwight Howard all time.

How can we really say that Bill truly is the GOAT shot-blocker? By reputation? That isn't reliable. We can see that he blocked shots, and read that he blocked shots, but how good was he really?

In his era, few guys knew to shoot floaters, they came into existence expressedly as an anti-Russel shot, so clearly were not as well practiced at it as modern players are. Furthermore, most guys were using set shots, which are easier to block than jump shots, and were always shooting closer to the basket than they do now because they had no reason not to get close. Why wouldn't Serge Ibaka, who is certainly a guy with a vertical and horizontal game, gain an identical reputation to Bill if he played at that time instead of now? Wouldn't he be picking up an absurd number of blocks given his agility, length, leaping, and dedication to defense?

He is still going to be a great defender, mind you, and his prowess in the PnR on both sides of the court is certain to make him an excellent player, but we're talking about the #2 player all time, it's good to question this sort of thing IMO.

Bill played point-center, he was literally the primary point player some seasons. No reason why he couldn't get at least 3 assist like an Andrew Bogut. Again, that makes up for his lack of scoring alone, a good passing high post center will not put up a lot of numbers, but is very fundamental to a neatly run offense. Joakim Noah put up like 5-6 APG, but I won't dive too much into hyperbole for Bill's passing ability.

So why is a 15/19/3/5 player who would probably dominate KG style +/- not as good as say a 26/13/3/4 player? (not taking into account that Bill would project into someone who would likely get more steals than Kareem). Are there not intangibles here that make up for any difference in numeral impact? Is Kareem not someone who has social problems with his teammates and club? Is Bill someone who has not risen to the challenge when ever his team needed too? For the most part Kareem has too, but Kareem certainly has more of a reputation for being mentally weak than Bill does. Bill is called an older Ben Wallace, yet I can't see Bill putting up a 30/40 game in Game 7 of the NBA finals (with pace adjusted, still blazing numbers for someone who "can't score").

What offensive skills did he actually have beyond passing though? If we're looking to see how he would translate, we need to know how he scored those points- I haven't actually seen evidence that he could shoot or post up. From what I've watched he looks like he'd just score like Tyson Chandler does- finishing, alley-oops, put-backs, transition dunks, that sort of thing.

Also, does anyone have a nice compilation of Bill Russel footage? I've seen a nearly hour-long video showing off what Wilt could do, but I'd like to see more of Russel to judge him.

[MacGill]

There are questions about prime Abdul-Jabbar's dominance? Could anyone elaborate on what tool in his skillset wasn't dominant?

Look, I am not sure if this was posted about myself or not but I want to make a few things clear here. This is a learning project and to get the most out of it...I am not going to shy away from my own perspectives as I want to get as many new ones as possible. If this is seen as not the popular opinion, or against the grain, I am fine with that.

I am looking to be as open minded here as possible and not looking to ruffle feathers with anyone. These are the thoughts and perceptions I have and I am not afraid to debate why I feel that way. Sorry if this pisses anyone else off but I believe in transparency and am not too proud to admit when my point may have been offbase.

Hope that helps make things clearer here. Just looking for good basketball conversation no matter how annoying my opinion on him may be.

[penbeast0]

Who were the 70s equivalent of Yao? I can see Gasol and Noah being the equivalent of a Cowens type, Lopez maybe being McAdoo (McAdoo far superior actually), Cousins being Elvin Hayes, and Jefferson and Dwight being post-ABA Gilmore and Moses but I don't see anyone appreciably taller than Kareem to be a Yao equivalent (I'm assuming you used those particular names for a reason).

Kareem's elite competition:

Willis Reed (70-71)
Wilt (70-72)
Dave Cowens (72-78)
Elvin Hayes (70-79) played most of that time next to Unseld but played more of the center role
Bob McAdoo (74-76)
Bill Walton (77-78) though I hesitate to include 78 since he wasn't around for the playoffs
Moses (79)
Lanier (72-79) Never an All-Pro despite consistent good numbers which implies there was always at least one other top center around to compete with Kareem.

So, there were generally about 3-4 true star centers (assuming I didn't forget anyone) in any given year during the 70s, 5-6 scrubs playing out of need, and a reasonable amount of competent but not star types like Cliff Ray and Tom Boerwinkle in early 70s Chicago or Sam Lacy in Kansas City. Let me know if I forgot any star players.

Not unreasonably different than the last 10 years of the NBA for Tim Duncan (like Hayes, he tends to play like a center for the last 10 years) although Shaq and Dwight are probably better than any of Kareem's 70s competition at the top. The 60s had more concentrated talent at the top so roughly the same number of stars but spread over only 8-9 teams . . . again, it's a lot smaller and more easily identified talent pool when you are talking about centers than when you are talking about guards so it's not surprising that expansion left a lot more holes in the center talent pool than in the guard pool where Baller's point about popularity of the sport identifiying and training potential players has some validity.

[ronnymac2]

But MacGill, what exactly are you looking for? The 1971 and 1972 Bucks were among the most dominant ever. '72 Bucks might be the GOAT team to never win a title. 1974 he was right there. 1977 he destroyed Walton and Lucas without a PF next to him. 1980, he was clearly the best in the league and won a title.

The only reason why he didn't string together championships was because his teams sucked from 1975-1979. They either had no talent or they were horribly mismatched, basically as mismatched as Shaq's 1998 Lakers.

[pancakes3]

I feel like Wilt is getting explained a little too easily. His raw numbers are so absurdly high that it at least warrants mention. I suppose the quick and dirty would be:
a) Wilt made more all-NBA first teams than Russell so what are the compelling arguments that goes against their contemporary analysis? Did sports fans evolve into smarter fans in the last 50 years? If so, does that invalidate other subjective accolades for other players? MVPs? All-D selections? All-star games?

b) The offense. Russell's offense is being swept under the rug. I mean, ultimately you still have to put the ball in the basket, right? Lots of Wilt's detractors point to stories about how he favored fadeaways for dunks but who are casting stones at a 9-time league leader in fg% - 4 of which were league leading fg% AND scoring?

c) Again, the raw stats. Just unbelievable raw stats. Longest (9) triple double streak. Holds the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in double-double streaks. Only 73 games out of 1045 where he didn't get a double-double. Holds the only 20+ triple-double in NBA history with 22/25/21.

See, to me, Wilt is at least comparable to Russell albeit very different styles and a superior player compared to KAJ unless you want to point at a single aspect of the game like free throw shooting or something.

[MisterWestside]

Look, I am not sure if this was posted about myself or not but I want to make a few things clear here. This is a learning project and to get the most out of it...I am not going to shy away from my own perspectives as I want to get as many new ones as possible. If this is seen as not the popular opinion, or against the grain, I am fine with that.

I am looking to be as open minded here as possible and not looking to ruffle feathers with anyone. These are the thoughts and perceptions I have and I am not afraid to debate why I feel that way. Sorry if this pisses anyone else off but I believe in transparency and am not too proud to admit when my point may have been offbase.

Hope that helps make things clearer here. Just looking for good basketball conversation no matter how annoying my opinion on him may be.

Honest question, MacGill. What say you? Defense seems to be his one relative weakness, but do you have others in mind?

[ronnymac2]

Who were the 70s equivalent of Yao? I can see Gasol and Noah being the equivalent of a Cowens type, Lopez maybe being McAdoo (McAdoo far superior actually), Cousins being Elvin Hayes, and Jefferson and Dwight being post-ABA Gilmore and Moses but I don't see anyone appreciably taller than Kareem to be a Yao equivalent (I'm assuming you used those particular names for a reason).

Kareem's elite competition:

Willis Reed (70-71)
Wilt (70-72)
Dave Cowens (72-78)
Elvin Hayes (70-79) played most of that time next to Unseld but played more of the center role
Bob McAdoo (74-76)
Bill Walton (77-78) though I hesitate to include 78 since he wasn't around for the playoffs
Moses (79)
Lanier (72-79) Never an All-Pro despite consistent good numbers which implies there was always at least one other top center around to compete with Kareem.

So, there were generally about 3-4 true star centers (assuming I didn't forget anyone) in any given year during the 70s, 5-6 scrubs playing out of need, and a reasonable amount of competent but not star types like Cliff Ray and Tom Boerwinkle in early 70s Chicago or Sam Lacy in Kansas City. Let me know if I forgot any star players.

Not unreasonably different than the last 10 years of the NBA for Tim Duncan (like Hayes, he tends to play like a center for the last 10 years) although Shaq and Dwight are probably better than any of Kareem's 70s competition at the top. The 60s had more concentrated talent at the top so roughly the same number of stars but spread over only 8-9 teams . . . again, it's a lot smaller and more easily identified talent pool when you are talking about centers than when you are talking about guards so it's not surprising that expansion left a lot more holes in the center talent pool than in the guard pool where Baller's point about popularity of the sport identifiying and training potential players has some validity.

Well I didn't say that with any stylistic comparisons in mind, but maybe Yao and Thurmond. Both amazing man defenders in the low post and all-around defensive anchors. Their offensive numbers look good as well, but getting the ball into Yao made the team turnover-prone (fronting was a legit defense against Yao), and Thurmond didn't shoot the ball efficiently, so their volume scoring numbers probably overrated their offense a tiny bit (with Yao being a better offensive player and Nate being a superior rebounder, too).

[DannyNoonan1221]

I just want to focus on this. One of the most annoying things I see is when people post about how they're picking a guy because he had "killer instinct" or "leadership" or "the edge". Most of this stuff is virtually impossible for us as fans to really determine.

I disagree. Jordan has story after story supporting his competitiveness and mental edge over all others during his time. Opposing coaches begging their players not to say a word, not even look him in the eyes- even during his Washington years. By taking this out of the equation you're really hindering the accuracy of this list. And while I do agree a players mindset is difficult to truly gauge, I think where there is definitive proof, it needs to be included.

[MacGill]

Look, I am not sure if this was posted about myself or not but I want to make a few things clear here. This is a learning project and to get the most out of it...I am not going to shy away from my own perspectives as I want to get as many new ones as possible. If this is seen as not the popular opinion, or against the grain, I am fine with that.

I am looking to be as open minded here as possible and not looking to ruffle feathers with anyone. These are the thoughts and perceptions I have and I am not afraid to debate why I feel that way. Sorry if this pisses anyone else off but I believe in transparency and am not too proud to admit when my point may have been offbase.

Hope that helps make things clearer here. Just looking for good basketball conversation no matter how annoying my opinion on him may be.

Honest question, MacGill. What say you? Defense seems to be his one relative weakness, but do you have others in mind?

Well this is part of it. I know Reg has posted some information on this in the past about inconsistencies but it seems with KAJ no one really wants to discuss it. I recall an interview with Wilt stating that KAJ didn't like contact but I haven't read anything around how KAJ was played against with these other centers. I've watched some footage and it sure didn't look like how Shaq was being guarded for instance. Could the crop ronnymac2 listed make him work defensively as well? How did KAJ fair against Moses for instance defensively?

[Baller2014]

The proof has to be pretty solid for it to be included. Here it's non-existent, and contrary to the actual evidence I cited. It's just a myth trotted out by people, that Oscar was "the leader" and Kareem could get nowhere without him, when the exact opposite looks to be true in reality.

[ardee]

There are questions about prime Abdul-Jabbar's dominance? Could anyone elaborate on what tool in his skillset wasn't dominant?

Look, I am not sure if this was posted about myself or not but I want to make a few things clear here. This is a learning project and to get the most out of it...I am not going to shy away from my own perspectives as I want to get as many new ones as possible. If this is seen as not the popular opinion, or against the grain, I am fine with that.

I am looking to be as open minded here as possible and not looking to ruffle feathers with anyone. These are the thoughts and perceptions I have and I am not afraid to debate why I feel that way. Sorry if this pisses anyone else off but I believe in transparency and am not too proud to admit when my point may have been offbase.

Hope that helps make things clearer here. Just looking for good basketball conversation no matter how annoying my opinion on him may be.

I'm not being snarky here. I genuinely agree with Westside though, that post is unclear.

What do you mean that Magic-MJ-Russ-etc. had 'no question of domination' but Kareem does?

If you're referring to team success, what about the early 70s Bucks?

If you're referring to individual performances, '74, '77, '80?

What exactly did you mean by that post, if you could make it clearer?

[colts18]

I'm not being snarky here. I genuinely agree with Westside though, that post is unclear.

What do you mean that Magic-MJ-Russ-etc. had 'no question of domination' but Kareem does?

If you're referring to team success, what about the early 70s Bucks?

If you're referring to individual performances, '74, '77, '80?

What exactly did you mean by that post, if you could make it clearer?

This. Kareem has had success every time he has had relatively decent casts. Winner in HS, wins 3x straight NCAA titles, immediately turns the Bucks into a winner, wins 1 title and makes another final for the Bucks, wins 5 titles with the Lakers. No one in any sport has been questioned on their lack of winning despite 6 titles except for Kareem.

[MacGill]

There are questions about prime Abdul-Jabbar's dominance? Could anyone elaborate on what tool in his skillset wasn't dominant?

Look, I am not sure if this was posted about myself or not but I want to make a few things clear here. This is a learning project and to get the most out of it...I am not going to shy away from my own perspectives as I want to get as many new ones as possible. If this is seen as not the popular opinion, or against the grain, I am fine with that.

I am looking to be as open minded here as possible and not looking to ruffle feathers with anyone. These are the thoughts and perceptions I have and I am not afraid to debate why I feel that way. Sorry if this pisses anyone else off but I believe in transparency and am not too proud to admit when my point may have been offbase.

Hope that helps make things clearer here. Just looking for good basketball conversation no matter how annoying my opinion on him may be.

I'm not being snarky here. I genuinely agree with Westside though, that post is unclear.

What do you mean that Magic-MJ-Russ-etc. had 'no question of domination' but Kareem does?

If you're referring to team success, what about the early 70s Bucks?

If you're referring to individual performances, '74, '77, '80?

What exactly did you mean by that post, if you could make it clearer?

Fair enough, and maybe it was a bad choice of wording on my part.

I wasn't referring to KAJ not being dominate...he was no question, I was referring to the fact that to me he is the only ATG not to win on a team in his absolute peak. And given what I have read here around his 'presumed championships' he would give you that bothers me a little. I am not trying to make it seem like he was a scrub or anything because he clearly is a top talent all-time. But poster's want to say Russell's competition was weak, hence why he won...yet his impact dominated. Same with MJ, Shaq, Duncan etc. If some are looking to vote for him at #2, and a big part of why is his accolades, because he isn't separated from the group on stats alone, then this is part of what I want to question because I believe that a few other bigs were better basketball players than KAJ.

[penbeast0]

If Bill is truly the best rebounder of all time, he should reasonably get 18-19 rebounds a game, as his rebounding rate was similar to Dennis Rodman's (who got about that much), 17 rebounds at least. That is incredible impact, like think about how much impact Love has on boards, anyone who thinks that doesn't more than make up for his offensive short comings is crazy. Not to mention Rodman also used to stat pad, something Bill never did.

Do we know that he really was the best rebounder though? Pace adjust his numbers, then adjust again to account for the fact that there would be fewer rebounds to grab in a slower game. Are his rebounding numbers that impressive then? I'm very sure that someone has figured these numbers out, but I'm not sure where to find them.

He would probably get 4-5 blocks a game if he truly was the GOAT shot blocker. He has the physical attributes (6'11, he is taller than Howard and Olajuwon when he stands next to them). He certainly has the basketball IQ, as he had essentially created the fundamentals to modern shot blocking. People say well teams can make it up by taking 3s, while that diminishes his impact some what, it still doesn't change the fact that taking away the paint with such incredible efficiency is ungodly impact.

On top of that, Bill has the horizontal game. If one were to concede that he has amazing agility (and there are many accounts that he has this, as many perimeter players from his era would admit that Russell could switch on to them), how does this not make him prime to be a great pick and role player? PNR is much bigger now than it was then, so if he were teleported to this era and had a chance to assimilate, wouldn't he be one of the best PNR defenders, which is probably the most important thing for a modern big? It's why people talk about Dwight Howard all time.

How can we really say that Bill truly is the GOAT shot-blocker? By reputation? That isn't reliable. We can see that he blocked shots, and read that he blocked shots, but how good was he really?

In his era, few guys knew to shoot floaters, they came into existence expressedly as an anti-Russel shot, so clearly were not as well practiced at it as modern players are. Furthermore, most guys were using set shots, which are easier to block than jump shots, and were always shooting closer to the basket than they do now because they had no reason not to get close. Why wouldn't Serge Ibaka, who is certainly a guy with a vertical and horizontal game, gain an identical reputation to Bill if he played at that time instead of now? Wouldn't he be picking up an absurd number of blocks given his agility, length, leaping, and dedication to defense?

He is still going to be a great defender, mind you, and his prowess in the PnR on both sides of the court is certain to make him an excellent player, but we're talking about the #2 player all time, it's good to question this sort of thing IMO.

Bill played point-center, he was literally the primary point player some seasons. No reason why he couldn't get at least 3 assist like an Andrew Bogut. Again, that makes up for his lack of scoring alone, a good passing high post center will not put up a lot of numbers, but is very fundamental to a neatly run offense. Joakim Noah put up like 5-6 APG, but I won't dive too much into hyperbole for Bill's passing ability.

So why is a 15/19/3/5 player who would probably dominate KG style +/- not as good as say a 26/13/3/4 player? (not taking into account that Bill would project into someone who would likely get more steals than Kareem). Are there not intangibles here that make up for any difference in numeral impact? Is Kareem not someone who has social problems with his teammates and club? Is Bill someone who has not risen to the challenge when ever his team needed too? For the most part Kareem has too, but Kareem certainly has more of a reputation for being mentally weak than Bill does. Bill is called an older Ben Wallace, yet I can't see Bill putting up a 30/40 game in Game 7 of the NBA finals (with pace adjusted, still blazing numbers for someone who "can't score").

What offensive skills did he actually have beyond passing though? If we're looking to see how he would translate, we need to know how he scored those points- I haven't actually seen evidence that he could shoot or post up. From what I've watched he looks like he'd just score like Tyson Chandler does- finishing, alley-oops, put-backs, transition dunks, that sort of thing.

Also, does anyone have a nice compilation of Bill Russel footage? I've seen a nearly hour-long video showing off what Wilt could do, but I'd like to see more of Russel to judge him.

To answer a few of your questions:

TrueLAFan made a thread about adjusting 60s era players rebounding numbers to get the equivalent of rebound rate in the Statistical Analysis thread. viewtopic.php?f=344&t=955514

Russell's shotblocking is very obvious in all the game tape I've seen of him. What impresses me about it is how he directs so many of the shots he blocks toward teammates rather than just smacking them away. I don't know if he's the GOAT in terms of blocking the most per minute (Manuuuuute Bol!) but possibly in terms of creating turnovers using blocks.

I'm not sure I'd predict him as having more points in the current era. You could assume that he'd learn a better bread and butter shot than that sweeping hook (much as I love my hook -- grew up imitating Kareem!) and be more efficient but can't say that for sure. You can also look at how his scoring tending to scale up in big pressure games and assume he was capable of more but, again, can't be sure. What you can say is that his offensive game (including passing where his impact in my opinion gets a bit overrated -- I don't see his outlet passing as close to Wes Unseld's for example or his half court passing as equal to Bill Walton's) wasn't that impressive. He wasn't a two way great; like Magic and Bird, he was a one way great, his greatness was predicated on defense and rebounding. The key is how much you think it impacted his team's winning. I think his defensive impact was the greatest overall impact ever for a player in terms of how much it led/could lead to winning titles -- the actual titles are just the icing on the cake.

[MisterWestside]

Well this is part of it. I know Reg has posted some information on this in the past about inconsistencies but it seems with KAJ no one really wants to discuss it. I recall an interview with Wilt stating that KAJ didn't like contact but I haven't read anything around how KAJ was played against with these other centers. I've watched some footage and it sure didn't look like how Shaq was being guarded for instance. Could the crop ronnymac2 listed make him work defensively as well? How did KAJ fair against Moses for instance defensively?

Well, from the footage I watched, at least from his Alcindor-Bucks heyday, he was a spry and disruptive defensive force. Always active. Focused. Covered ground as well as protected the rim. I would say that Russell had superior athleticism, but Alcindor wasn't a scrub as a defensive anchor. Quite the opposite.

(Note that I didn't cite any impact numbers here. I've made the reasons for that clear in the #1 thread, ad nauseam.)

But that's what I watched. Feel free to comment with your own observations if you disagree, I value them

[Owly]

Who were the 70s equivalent of Yao? I can see Gasol and Noah being the equivalent of a Cowens type, Lopez maybe being McAdoo (McAdoo far superior actually), Cousins being Elvin Hayes, and Jefferson and Dwight being post-ABA Gilmore and Moses but I don't see anyone appreciably taller than Kareem to be a Yao equivalent (I'm assuming you used those particular names for a reason).

Kareem's elite competition:

Willis Reed (70-71)
Wilt (70-72)
Dave Cowens (72-78)
Elvin Hayes (70-79) played most of that time next to Unseld but played more of the center role
Bob McAdoo (74-76)
Bill Walton (77-78) though I hesitate to include 78 since he wasn't around for the playoffs
Moses (79)
Lanier (72-79) Never an All-Pro despite consistent good numbers which implies there was always at least one other top center around to compete with Kareem.

So, there were generally about 3-4 true star centers (assuming I didn't forget anyone) in any given year during the 70s, 5-6 scrubs playing out of need, and a reasonable amount of competent but not star types like Cliff Ray and Tom Boerwinkle in early 70s Chicago or Sam Lacy in Kansas City. Let me know if I forgot any star players.

Not unreasonably different than the last 10 years of the NBA for Tim Duncan (like Hayes, he tends to play like a center for the last 10 years) although Shaq and Dwight are probably better than any of Kareem's 70s competition at the top. The 60s had more concentrated talent at the top so roughly the same number of stars but spread over only 8-9 teams . . . again, it's a lot smaller and more easily identified talent pool when you are talking about centers than when you are talking about guards so it's not surprising that expansion left a lot more holes in the center talent pool than in the guard pool where Baller's point about popularity of the sport identifiying and training potential players has some validity.

Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel and maybe Alvan Adams (assuming Unseld's acknowledgment in the Hayes section accounts for him). I'd say that pack of decent (at least) centers is pretty big too.

[MacGill]

Hoping for some feedback here.

KAJ defensively - How was he throughout his entire career?

70's center crop - How did they make him work defensively? Were they effective 2 way centers? How did KAJ do defensively against Moses?

[ardee]

Fair enough, and maybe it was a bad choice of wording on my part.

I wasn't referring to KAJ not being dominate...he was no question, I was referring to the fact that to me he is the only ATG not to win on a team in his absolute peak. And given what I have read here around his 'presumed championships' he would give you that bothers me a little. I am not trying to make it seem like he was a scrub or anything because he clearly is a top talent all-time. But poster's want to say Russell's competition was weak, hence why he won...yet his impact dominated. Same with MJ, Shaq, Duncan etc. If some are looking to vote for him at #2, and a big part of why is his accolades, because he isn't separated from the group on stats alone, then this is part of what I want to question because I believe that a few other bigs were better basketball players than KAJ.

Hey, I'm voting for Russ here. So no disagreements on Russ vs Kareem...

But I think you're discounting the fact that at Kareem's 'absolute peak', he was playing with a supporting cast that makes '05-'07 KG, LeBron and Kobe feel good about themselves.

I'm sure you've seen footage from the '77 WCF... Some of Kareem's guys couldn't even get the ball past half-court. They were really, REALLY bad. To take them to 50 wins and the WCF required superhuman basketball... Which he provided btw, here's his game log from the '77 Playoffs...

WCSF vs Warriors
Game 1- 27 points, 16 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 blocks, 7/12 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 19 rebounds, 3 assists, 9 blocks, 4/6 FT
Game 3- 28 points, 14 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 4/7 FT
Game 4- 41 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 blocks, 11/16 FT
Game 5- 45 points, 18 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 blocks, 16/28 FG, 13/18 FT
Game 6- 43 points, 20 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 blocks, 17/25 FG, 9/11 FT
Game 7- 36 points, 26 rebounds, 0 blocks, 14/26 FG, 8/10 FT

WCF vs Blazers
Game 1- 30 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 11/19 FG, 8/9 FT
Game 2- 40 points, 17 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 blocks, 17/23 FG, 6/9 FT
Game 3- 21 points, 20 rebounds, 7 assists, 8 blocks, 5/12 FG, 11/13 FT (Foul trouble)
Game 4- 30 points, 17 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 blocks, 12/20 FG, 6/9 FT

I mean, a guy who can perform like that, is there any question that given the right supporting cast, he could've won the title? I think you could put '77 Kareem on any of Russell's title teams, or the '67 Sixers, '00 Lakers, '94 Rockets or '03 Spurs and still win the title.