RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #24

[euroleague]

Your completely right. I agree with everything you said here and I have no doubt give modern resources he would be a much better player than I am and he could probably make a D-1 roster. However, I have no doubt in my mind that Bill Russell is so much better than me at basketball it's not even comparable. I'm 100% sure that Don Nelson is way better at basketball than I am and he was a role player. Same with Pettit(though he obviously wasn't a role player). But I watch Milan play and I can't help but think I'm better than that guy. And the fact that I can even think that and not be totally wrong is my issue with having him so high. Know if I had been grown up when he did and had to learn basketball in 40s-50s like he did I know I would be worse than him. I just don't think Mikan was very good at basketball. Maybe it's some confirmation bias as I have never thought of Mikan as an All-time great. That's how I feel and I don't think I'm way off base either. Heck, you even agreed that you think in the modern sense I am a better basketball player. I struggle with that immensely when talking about putting him over guys like Curry, Nash, Ewing and Durant.

Russell may be much better than Mikan, but Mikan was much bigger and stronger.

Also, in the same respect, players like Anthony Davis and Giannis look at Bill Russell/Wilt and think "I'm way better than this guy. Why is he ranked so high?" Comparing across eras while using yourself as a benchmark seems rather arbitrary.

Obviously Russell watched Mikan, and learned about how to play defense from him. The comparison doesn't seem valid. Mikan played in 1947 and was MVP in 1948, Russell was 13/14 years old.

Apologies for struggling to answer everything you and others have said. I don't mean to be like that but I can't get to everything right now, and I feel I need to respond to this last part.

Consider very seriously:

When would Russell have had the opportunity to seriously watch Mikan growing up?

Television? People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt he ever got to see Mikan on TV. It was a different age.

In person? Russell grew up in California. There was no NBA out there at the time.

Add in that Russell was noted for the way he played so, so different from how big men were supposed to play. He was far more aggressive taking risks that mere mortals - like Mikan - just couldn't get away with because Russell was so impossibly quick for his size (and had such unprecedented intuition).

Someone like that doesn't develop by watching the previous generation. He does it by doing what makes sense for his body.

So yeah, the inference you see as obvious isn't simply not obviously right, it basically doesn't even make sense once you understand the details of the context.

I don't want that to be a disrespectful statement. We all get things wrong when we do this. But I think you need to understand that there are further layers that you haven't yet scratched.

I don't want to disrespect you, but talking about "further layers you haven't scratched" is ironic and actually disrespectful considering you did no research before making these statements. It's a fact, noted by Bill Russell himself regarding when he met with Mikan and became familiar with him in high school, that Mikan was literally his hero. He studied moves in magazines, and read up on stuff excessively. All this is available on Wikipedia.

"Russell has stated that his father became his childhood hero, later followed up by Minneapolis Lakers superstar George "Mr. Basketball" Mikan, who he met when he was in high school.[8]"

"Russell, in an autobiographical account, notes while on a California High School All-Stars tour, he became obsessed with studying and memorizing other players’ moves (e.g., footwork such as which foot they moved first on which play) as preparation for defending against them, which including practicing in front of a mirror at night. Russell further described himself as an avid reader of Dell Magazines' 1950s sports publications, which he used to scout opponents' moves for the purpose defending against them."

Please educate yourself.

PS (Edit): Bill Russell may have aped Mikan, but Mikan was a trailblazer doing things nobody had done. Russell obviously got his emphasis on defense and blocking from Mikan being so dominant that they banned him from blocking to close to the hoop. He didn't have "unprecedented intuition" - he just studied opponents (as anyone from any sport at a high level normally does, although less often before there was a professional basketball league to study) and played physical, aggressive defense (like Mikan, except using blocks instead of goaltending because of rule changes).

[Doctor MJ]

Alright. I've been suitably pwned.

[trex_8063]

Russell may be much better than Mikan, but Mikan was much bigger and stronger.

Also, in the same respect, players like Anthony Davis and Giannis look at Bill Russell/Wilt and think "I'm way better than this guy. Why is he ranked so high?" Comparing across eras while using yourself as a benchmark seems rather arbitrary.

Obviously Russell watched Mikan, and learned about how to play defense from him. The comparison doesn't seem valid. Mikan played in 1947 and was MVP in 1948, Russell was 13/14 years old.

Apologies for struggling to answer everything you and others have said. I don't mean to be like that but I can't get to everything right now, and I feel I need to respond to this last part.

Consider very seriously:

When would Russell have had the opportunity to seriously watch Mikan growing up?

Television? People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt he ever got to see Mikan on TV. It was a different age.

In person? Russell grew up in California. There was no NBA out there at the time.

Add in that Russell was noted for the way he played so, so different from how big men were supposed to play. He was far more aggressive taking risks that mere mortals - like Mikan - just couldn't get away with because Russell was so impossibly quick for his size (and had such unprecedented intuition).

Someone like that doesn't develop by watching the previous generation. He does it by doing what makes sense for his body.

So yeah, the inference you see as obvious isn't simply not obviously right, it basically doesn't even make sense once you understand the details of the context.

I don't want that to be a disrespectful statement. We all get things wrong when we do this. But I think you need to understand that there are further layers that you haven't yet scratched.

I don't want to disrespect you, but talking about "further layers you haven't scratched" is ironic and actually disrespectful considering you did no research before making these statements. It's a fact, noted by Bill Russell himself regarding when he met with Mikan and became familiar with him in high school, that Mikan was literally his hero. He studied moves in magazines, and read up on stuff excessively. All this is available on Wikipedia.

"Russell has stated that his father became his childhood hero, later followed up by Minneapolis Lakers superstar George "Mr. Basketball" Mikan, who he met when he was in high school.[8]"

"Russell, in an autobiographical account, notes while on a California High School All-Stars tour, he became obsessed with studying and memorizing other players’ moves (e.g., footwork such as which foot they moved first on which play) as preparation for defending against them, which including practicing in front of a mirror at night. Russell further described himself as an avid reader of Dell Magazines' 1950s sports publications, which he used to scout opponents' moves for the purpose defending against them."

Please educate yourself.

PS (Edit): Bill Russell may have aped Mikan, but Mikan was a trailblazer doing things nobody had done. Russell obviously got his emphasis on defense and blocking from Mikan being so dominant that they banned him from blocking to close to the hoop. He didn't have "unprecedented intuition" - he just studied opponents (as anyone from any sport at a high level normally does, although less often before there was a professional basketball league to study) and played physical, aggressive defense (like Mikan, except using blocks instead of goaltending because of rule changes).

Yeah, I recall reading somewhere (I think it was in The Rivalry by John Taylor) that Russell idolized Mikan, and to some small degree based his defensive style on Mikan's....but just took it to the next level (or the next 2-3 levels).

Referring back to that scouting video by WCA, one can see Mikan breaking what was (I think) precedent for a big man in actually tracking the dribbler and leaving his feet to block/challenge shots. Of interest, while I was searching Mikan photos (btw, does anyone know a free site to store and share photos that allows free 3rd-party hosting, now that Photobucket.com apparently does not?), I found this photo (at bottom of page) of him coming out on a perimeter shooter and leaving the ground to contest the shot (it looks like he's going get it, too). It just had me speculating on his willingness/ability to come out and contest shots in a more modern context where bigs are willing to shoot.