Lebron vs Kobe vs MJ - NBA Clutch Stats

[Baski]

Clutch is not arbitrary.

Clutch exists everywhere in life. Yeah, it's easy to walk on a tight rope when you're 1 foot above the ground, not so easy when you're 1000 feet over a canyon. Easy to do a great presentation in front of the mirror, not so easy in front of thousands of people. Easy to come up with what you're going to tell a crush in your mind, not so much in front of a living person. Easy to have a plan for the boxing ring, not so easy when you get punched in the face (Mike Tyson: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth").

Clutch is "keeping your cool" under pressure. That's a real thing.

The problem is the definition of clutch, which when it comes to certain players, changes constantly.
If it's keeping your cool under pressure like you say, why would you have such a rigid definition of pressure?
You make it seem like the only time a player can be under pressure is exactly when the game has 5 or 2 minutes to go (I've seen one where it's exactly 24 seconds to go, as if the player always has a full shot clock to work with at the end of every game), with exactly a 5 or 3pt gap, and you hold on to this religiously, which is not right.
Your examples don't help your case either. In all of them you reference the entire performance. You didn't talk about "when you're 10m from one end of a tight rope exactly 100m above the ground" or "during the 4th slide in your presentation when the audience has only clapped once" or "When Mike Tyson punches you in the face in the 11th round and at least one eye is swollen". How would you even measure clutchness against Mike Tyson? Number of bobs and weaves? Number of succesful hits? Time taken before hitting the ground after taking said hit? The more you try to confine it to some arbitrary criterion the sillier it sounds.

In basketball you can be "clutch" in the 3rd quarter, an entire game, and yes even with 5:16 left on the clock and the gap within 6 points. And it doesnt have to be scoring alone. I've seen Dwayne Wade make multiple clutch steals and of course LeBron's clutch block, Pierce made an incredibly clutch rebound in that 2008 series against the Cavs and yet none of these gets mentioned (by guys like you at least) when discussing the clutchness of these guys.

[bledredwine]

Clutch is far away from arbitrary. Clutch is why a Durant helped Golden State win the series quickly last year. Clutch is Jordan never being taken to a game 7. The amount of times he won games late made all the difference, and it shows in the numbers. Pippen stated that if the Bulls were within 6 heading into the 4th, he knew that they'd win the game. Lebron doesn't have that reputation, and if he did, it's likely that the Cavs could have won last night or won another close game in the finals last season. Also, the free throws are yet another Lebron excuse. You guys cited one situation.... but the free throw situation applies to all players, not just Lebron. According to many Lebron fans, jordan gets too many free throws anyway. Well, you can't have both so what will it be? Jordan's more clutch or gets less free throws than Lebron?

If we're being honest, this thread has almost nothing to do with Michael Jordan. It's basically LeBron vs Kobe within whatever timeframe suits the agenda. Jordan is clearly in a league of his own when it comes to making the right play towards the end of games. I've noticed that most of these clutch definitions, no matter who between LeBron and Kobe they favor, always show Jordan as better than both or at least one of them. I've only seen like one post in this whole thread saying they'd pick LeBron over Jordan in the 4th.
?

Not about Jordan? Who's names are in the title of the thread? As long as Lebron fans are calling clutch stats arbitrary, something that they seem to use against Kobe all of the time, I will argue otherwise. Jordan is an ideal example to use and is obviously a part of this.

[Baski]

Not about Jordan? Who's names are in the title of the thread? As long as Lebron fans are calling clutch stats arbitrary, something that they seem to use against Kobe all of the time, I will argue otherwise. Jordan is an ideal example to use and is obviously a part of this.

[quote="bledredwine"]

Yeah i said if we're being honest, this thread really isn't about MJ at all. It's clear that OP wanted to use it to show that LeBron is not clutch while Kobe is. Jordan was just added to make it looked less biased. This is like comparing the 3pt shooting ability of LeBron, Kobe and Curry for example. One of the three is clearly above the rest, and it's really going to be a discussion about the other two.
And again if we're being honest, all these clutch statistics used by "LeBron fans" are the response to Kobe fans constantly proclaiming what a killer, assassin, mamba and whatever else Kobe was in the fourth quarter of every game, and how LeBron was the exact opposite of that.
If we're being truly honest, Kobe's legendary career gave rise to a lot of overrating of his actual clutch ability, at least in comparison to other all time greats, especially LeBron.

Again Jordan is easily better than both in those situations, and as this thread has shown by how few, if any, posts actually place him below any of the other two, the discussion is really about LeBron vs Kobe.

[bledredwine]

Not about Jordan? Who's names are in the title of the thread? As long as Lebron fans are calling clutch stats arbitrary, something that they seem to use against Kobe all of the time, I will argue otherwise. Jordan is an ideal example to use and is obviously a part of this.

Yeah i said if we're being honest, this thread really isn't about MJ at all. It's clear that OP wanted to use it to show that LeBron is not clutch while Kobe is. Jordan was just added to make it looked less biased. This is like comparing the 3pt shooting ability of LeBron, Kobe and Curry for example. One of the three is clearly above the rest, and it's really going to be a discussion about the other two.
And again if we're being honest, all these clutch statistics used by "LeBron fans" are the response to Kobe fans constantly proclaiming what a killer, assassin, mamba and whatever else Kobe was in the fourth quarter of every game, and how LeBron was the exact opposite of that.
If we're being truly honest, Kobe's legendary career gave rise to a lot of overrating of his actual clutch ability, at least in comparison to other all time greats, especially LeBron.

Again Jordan is easily better than both in those situations, and as this thread has shown by how few, if any, posts actually place him below any of the other two, the discussion is really about LeBron vs Kobe.

I actually agree. I've always found Kobe overrated in the clutch. He was always willing to take that shot, but chances are that he would miss. I don't feel more comfortable when Lebron takes it though. In the last five minutes, Lebron is elite, but the last shot is tough since he lacks skill in covered midrange shots IMO. It's a conversation. If I go for a last shot, I actually choose Kobe. His ability to create a shot that he has a chance of making is second to none.

[Ainosterhaspie]

What are Kobe and LeBron's numbers on actual last shots in playoff games? Or shots with 5 seconds, 10 seconds or 24 seconds? Are you basing that opinion on data or perception? The actual results can be tabulated and observed and it should be clear if you assessment is correct.

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[bledredwine]

What are Kobe and LeBron's numbers on actual last shots in playoff games? Or shots with 5 seconds, 10 seconds or 24 seconds? Are you basing that opinion on data or perception? The actual results can be tabulated and observed and it should be clear if you assessment is correct.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Perception. Don't just include Lebron's takenshots. Include the times he's passed up a shot only to have another player take the final shot as well. I don't think that it'd look very good. Remember that Miami heat stat where they were sucking terribly on final shots when the big 3 got together? Lebron was in charge of most of those decisions. They didn't turn it around until they started giving it to Wade, something that Wade admitted at the time.

[PaulieWal]

What are Kobe and LeBron's numbers on actual last shots in playoff games? Or shots with 5 seconds, 10 seconds or 24 seconds? Are you basing that opinion on data or perception? The actual results can be tabulated and observed and it should be clear if you assessment is correct.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Perception. Don't just include Lebron's takenshots. Include the times he's passed up a shot only to have another player take the final shot as well. I don't think that it'd look very good. Remember that Miami heat stat where they were sucking terribly on final shots when the big 3 got together? Lebron was in charge of most of those decisions. They didn't turn it around until they started giving it to Wade, something that Wade admitted at the time.

What? They turned it around after Wade actually told LeBron that he should be the clear #1 on the team and that all crunch-time decisions were made by him instead of them trying to 1a, 1b crunch time. This isn't to say that LeBron did not have a horrible series in the crunch against the Mavs but what happened is actually the opposite of what you are saying. I distinctly remember the interview LeBron Wade did after they won in 2012 and Wade said that he took LeBron for a vacation after the Mavs Finals and told him to make this "his" team and that Wade would be clear cut #2.

[Ainosterhaspie]

If I go for a last shot, I actually choose Kobe. His ability to create a shot that he has a chance of making is second to none.

LeBron has made three playoff buzzer beaters against Chicago, Indiana and Orlando. Kobe only made one against the Suns.

LeBron is better on game tying and go ahead with 5 seconds, 10 seconds and 24 seconds. Not just a better percentage, but more baskets made. So if you want a missed shot in those situations going with Kobe is a solid plan,but if you want a made shot go with LeBron. There really is no argument to be made there unless you want to flat out ignore actual results.

I don't know what LeBron's willingness to pass has to do with anything since he still makes more shots despite not taking all he can. I suspect part of why he makes more shots is because defenses have to respect the fact that he is willing to pass and can't defend him with doubles and triples as they can with Kobe.

http://thesportsquotient.com/featured/2013/10/25/jordan-vs-lebron-vs-kobe-whos-most-clutch-in-the-playoffs

[LakerLegend]

Taking Kobe over LeBron is just never the right choice regardless of how much time is on the clock.

MJ was the better offensive player, LeBron is the better defensive player, I think MJ peaked slightly higher, but LeBron trumps him as far as longevity goes, so LeBron is the best as far as I'm concerned.

All this other conversation is just noise about outdated concepts that don't really have a place in modern basketball.

Tell that to Wade:

“I do feel — and I’ve said this before the last couple of years with LeBron [James], when he became the best player in our game — that Kobe Bryant is the greatest player of our era. The Kobe Bryants aren’t around no more. There are good young players, but there will never be another Kobe. So every opportunity you get to [face him], you want to seize that moment …. You hear about the guy being down, struggling with his shot and going through all of those other things. But what I’ll always see is the guy who has dominated this game at his position for a long time.”

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/dwyane-wade-kobe-bryant-greatest-player

http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/21385/heats-dwyane-wade-relishes-final-clashes-with-kobe

[bledredwine]

Taking Kobe over LeBron is just never the right choice regardless of how much time is on the clock.

MJ was the better offensive player, LeBron is the better defensive player, I think MJ peaked slightly higher, but LeBron trumps him as far as longevity goes, so LeBron is the best as far as I'm concerned.

All this other conversation is just noise about outdated concepts that don't really have a place in modern basketball.

Tell that to Wade:

“I do feel — and I’ve said this before the last couple of years with LeBron [James], when he became the best player in our game — that Kobe Bryant is the greatest player of our era. The Kobe Bryants aren’t around no more. There are good young players, but there will never be another Kobe. So every opportunity you get to [face him], you want to seize that moment …. You hear about the guy being down, struggling with his shot and going through all of those other things. But what I’ll always see is the guy who has dominated this game at his position for a long time.”

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/dwyane-wade-kobe-bryant-greatest-player

http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/21385/heats-dwyane-wade-relishes-final-clashes-with-kobe

Many players and coaches share that opinion.

[bledredwine]

What are Kobe and LeBron's numbers on actual last shots in playoff games? Or shots with 5 seconds, 10 seconds or 24 seconds? Are you basing that opinion on data or perception? The actual results can be tabulated and observed and it should be clear if you assessment is correct.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Perception. Don't just include Lebron's takenshots. Include the times he's passed up a shot only to have another player take the final shot as well. I don't think that it'd look very good. Remember that Miami heat stat where they were sucking terribly on final shots when the big 3 got together? Lebron was in charge of most of those decisions. They didn't turn it around until they started giving it to Wade, something that Wade admitted at the time.

What? They turned it around after Wade actually told LeBron that he should be the clear #1 on the team and that all crunch-time decisions were made by him instead of them trying to 1a, 1b crunch time. This isn't to say that LeBron did not have a horrible series in the crunch against the Mavs but what happened is actually the opposite of what you are saying. I distinctly remember the interview LeBron Wade did after they won in 2012 and Wade said that he took LeBron for a vacation after the Mavs Finals and told him to make this "his" team and that Wade would be clear cut #2.

Yes, they decided on Lebron as one option, but Wade as closer. This was stated in interviews as well. Lebron was not the go-to clutch scorer. He was the guy who operated the team and chosen batman, sure.

[PaulieWal]

Perception. Don't just include Lebron's takenshots. Include the times he's passed up a shot only to have another player take the final shot as well. I don't think that it'd look very good. Remember that Miami heat stat where they were sucking terribly on final shots when the big 3 got together? Lebron was in charge of most of those decisions. They didn't turn it around until they started giving it to Wade, something that Wade admitted at the time.

What? They turned it around after Wade actually told LeBron that he should be the clear #1 on the team and that all crunch-time decisions were made by him instead of them trying to 1a, 1b crunch time. This isn't to say that LeBron did not have a horrible series in the crunch against the Mavs but what happened is actually the opposite of what you are saying. I distinctly remember the interview LeBron Wade did after they won in 2012 and Wade said that he took LeBron for a vacation after the Mavs Finals and told him to make this "his" team and that Wade would be clear cut #2.

Yes, they decided on Lebron as one option, but Wade as closer. This was stated in interviews as well. Lebron was not the go-to clutch scorer. He was the guy who operated the team and chosen batman, sure.

Which interviews are you talking about? Got any links because I am drawing a blank.

[bledredwine]

Yes, they decided on Lebron as one option, but Wade as closer. This was stated in interviews as well. Lebron was not the go-to clutch scorer. He was the guy who operated the team and chosen batman, sure.

Which interviews are you talking about? Got any links because I am drawing a blank.

I actually got rid of YouTube and a bunch of sites (although not this one ) to focus on memorizing music, or I'd link you. That said, I'm not even sure I can track it down it was so long ago. Lebron himself stated it as well- that he was a "magic" type player and thought Wade plays part of closer. I remember it quite vividly. Wade also stated something in an interview saying he'd help close games (and he did). It was their first year when they were figuring things out and they had that wretched clutch shot stat remember? It was like 2 for 17 to win games or something crazy.

[PaulieWal]

Yes, they decided on Lebron as one option, but Wade as closer. This was stated in interviews as well. Lebron was not the go-to clutch scorer. He was the guy who operated the team and chosen batman, sure.

Which interviews are you talking about? Got any links because I am drawing a blank.

I actually got rid of YouTube and a bunch of sites (although not this one ) to focus on memorizing music, or I'd link you. That said, I'm not even sure I can track it down it was so long ago. Lebron himself stated it as well- that he was a "magic" type player and thought Wade plays part of closer. I remember it quite vividly.

As someone who followed the Heat era very closely and watched over 90% of their RS + PS games, I can also say with quite some conviction there were no such interviews. What I do know is Wade in his prime definitely was one of the best closers in the game but there were no defined roles that Wade was going to be the closer.

When you are talking about the Magic type player, that was actually a soundbyte from Riley's pitch to LeBron that Bosh would be KG, Wade would be Kobe and LeBron would be the Magic. I do remember that. Either way, post 2011 LeBron was pretty much the decision maker in crunch time and would make the decision to find the open guy or try to score himself.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Wade was not their playoff closer. I don't think they really had one, though James had the ball in his hands a lot. They tended to try to get good shots rather than have someone play hero ball. I went through the play by play of their 2012 & 2013 runs and don't see evidence of Wade being a designated closer. I do know James sure looked like the closer taking the last shot buzzer bester against the Pacers in '13 and then against the Spurs in games six and seven. Yes he missed that shot in game six, but he took it too which is what you closer see job is. He also took two other threes just before that. Sure doesn't seem like Wade was the closer in that game. In game seven, LeBron sure played a role in closing there. It was I think the greater role compared to Wade.

Feel free to point out a playoff game after '11 where Wade was their clear closer because I can't find it. I'm really not interested in what was or wasnt said if it didn't manifest on the court.

[bledredwine]

I actually got rid of YouTube and a bunch of sites (although not this one ) to focus on memorizing music, or I'd link you. That said, I'm not even sure I can track it down it was so long ago. Lebron himself stated it as well- that he was a "magic" type player and thought Wade plays part of closer. I remember it quite vividly.

As someone who followed the Heat era very closely and watched over 90% of their RS + PS games, I can also say with quite some conviction there were no such interviews. What I do know is Wade in his prime definitely was one of the best closers in the game but there were no defined roles that Wade was going to be the closer.

When you are talking about the Magic type player, that was actually a soundbyte from Riley's pitch to LeBron that Bosh would be KG, Wade would be Kobe and LeBron would be the Magic. I do remember that. Either way, post 2011 LeBron was pretty much the decision maker in crunch time and would make the decision to find the open guy or try to score himself.

That's fine if you believe that, but I'm not making this up. My only wrong posts have come from errors, and they are few. I never fabricate what I've seen. Wade first stated that, and Lebron agreed, comparing himself to Magic. I believe that I know what you're referring to by Riley as well. And it makes sense seeing as what you said is true- Wade was one of the best closers that we've seen in this league. I would love to see Wade vs Lebron final 1 minute stats from that season. I'd bet my third imaginary nut that wade scored more effectively (volume compared to efficiency).

[Baski]

I actually agree. I've always found Kobe overrated in the clutch. He was always willing to take that shot, but chances are that he would miss. I don't feel more comfortable when Lebron takes it though. In the last five minutes, Lebron is elite, but the last shot is tough since he lacks skill in covered midrange shots IMO. It's a conversation. If I go for a last shot, I actually choose Kobe. His ability to create a shot that he has a chance of making is second to none.

This is the problem though. I always hear this narrative of "Kobe could always create whatever shot he wanted in the clutch because he's so skilled" and yet every single shot I've seen him "create" in the clutch ends up as a contested fadeaway, sometimes from 3pt range, sometimes over multiple defenders. That's not what i call shot creating. That's just taking the ball, dribbling a little, rising for a shot and praying it goes in. Now Kobe's shot making ability did allow him to hit a small number of those shots, but why people consistently praise those kinds of shots like Kobe "creates" good looks out of nowhere is beyond me. Jordan has a few highlights where he actually creates space and gets a mostly open shot, or makes sure he's risen well above his defender before shooting, and that's obviously why his numbers look great no matter what clutch definition you use. Because he actually "creates" good shots unlike Kobe. LeBron is never going to take such a "dumb" shot because it's basically an assured miss, but those shots Kobe took are nothing LeBron himself can't "create" if we're being honest.
This season we're seeing actual shot creation in the clutch from LeBron with those step back threes and turnaround fadeaways of his. You see the space he creates with those and the subsequent makes that follow.

[bledredwine]

I actually agree. I've always found Kobe overrated in the clutch. He was always willing to take that shot, but chances are that he would miss. I don't feel more comfortable when Lebron takes it though. In the last five minutes, Lebron is elite, but the last shot is tough since he lacks skill in covered midrange shots IMO. It's a conversation. If I go for a last shot, I actually choose Kobe. His ability to create a shot that he has a chance of making is second to none.

This is the problem though. I always hear this narrative of "Kobe could always create whatever shot he wanted in the clutch because he's so skilled" and yet every single shot I've seen him "create" in the clutch ends up as a contested fadeaway, sometimes from 3pt range, sometimes over multiple defenders. That's not what i call shot creating. That's just taking the ball, dribbling a little, rising for a shot and praying it goes in. Now Kobe's shot making ability did allow him to hit a small number of those shots, but why people consistently praise those kinds of shots like Kobe "creates" good looks out of nowhere is beyond me. Jordan has a few highlights where he actually creates space and gets a mostly open shot, or makes sure he's risen well above his defender before shooting, and that's obviously why his numbers look great no matter what clutch definition you use. Because he actually "creates" good shots unlike Kobe. LeBron is never going to take such a "dumb" shot because it's basically an assured miss, but those shots Kobe took are nothing LeBron himself can't "create" if we're being honest.
This season we're seeing actual shot creation in the clutch from LeBron with those step back threes and turnaround fadeaways of his. You see the space he creates with those and the subsequent makes that follow.

That's true. But unlike Lebron, Kobe had a chance of hitting those wild shots. Wild shots were a part of his game. Lebron cannot create like that because with the exception of his Orlando shot, he doesn't have the ability to drift/fade and shoot like Kobe or Jordan. For example, I don't see Lebron hitting Jordan's sideways Cavs shot on ehlo, but Kobe would have a solid chance. Kobe has how many 50 point games? Lebron fans always claim "volume shooting", but they have no idea how difficult it is to create shots that you can make. Kobe WAS a more skilled and crafty scorer, with a post game as well. Can we admit that? Was there nothing that Kobe was better than Lebron at, in your opinion? There's reason for the high scoring games, for Wade stating that Kobe was the player of their era, not Lebron. Strictly in terms of scoring, Lebron's rarely been the best in the league and Kobe really is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan. It does mean he's endowed with better creation abilities at all times, clutch included. He has a way better midrange game and wild 3 ball. I'd like to reiterate that I couldn't stand Kobe's game, like AI's.... partially because Kobe fans did what Lebron fans are doing now and it was annoying, but also because his game was selfish and he made some dumb moves. But I respect greatness and it's not being objective to not acknowledge at least his incredible ability to create shots in basically any situation.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Where are the other stats? Rebounds, assists, etc?

Here's a stat for you: only one of these guys came back from 3-1 down against a 73 win team in the NBA finals leading both teams in every major statistical category. Hint: it's not Kobe or Jordan.

Do you know what all three of these guys have in common? They never beat the Warriors in the Finals when Stephen Curry was healthy.

LeBron will walk away with less rings than Kobe, MJ, and Curry. He will also have had the easiest path to the Finals every season.

[The High Cyde]

That's rich, the Warriors have gone to the Finals 3 straight years but only faced like 2 healthy teams on the way there lmao