NBA Superstars production in playoffs based on faced defenses

[Colbinii]

Most of LeBrons [maybe all?] of the elite/ATG defenses he faced was pre-Miami, where LeBron developed a near unstoppable offensive game.

Actually, James had quite a few series against elite/ATG defenses from 2011 to 2020:

2011 vs Celtics
2011 vs Bulls
2012 vs Celtics
2013 vs Pacers
2013 vs Spurs
2014 vs Pacers
2014 vs Spurs
2015 vs Warriors
2017 vs Warriors

He usually did very well against them scoring-wise, though he did struggle vs Spurs in 2013 and vs Warriors in 2015.

Do you have them for Wilt/Kareem as well?

[70sFan]

Most of LeBrons [maybe all?] of the elite/ATG defenses he faced was pre-Miami, where LeBron developed a near unstoppable offensive game.

Actually, James had quite a few series against elite/ATG defenses from 2011 to 2020:

2011 vs Celtics
2011 vs Bulls
2012 vs Celtics
2013 vs Pacers
2013 vs Spurs
2014 vs Pacers
2014 vs Spurs
2015 vs Warriors
2017 vs Warriors

He usually did very well against them scoring-wise, though he did struggle vs Spurs in 2013 and vs Warriors in 2015.

Do you have them for Wilt/Kareem as well?

I have them somewhere, I will post them within an hour (along with James, Kobe and Jordan).

I don't have them for full careers though, I think primes are enough sample to get clear picture (though ty's work is much appreciated!).

[ty 4191]

Do you have them for Wilt/Kareem as well?

I do have everything broken down, but, I don't know how to protect then share a Google Doc on here! And, I can't share screenshots (don't know how)! Sigh. This platform is so ancient!

If someone can help, I'm, of course, happy to show all the results in full.

Thank you!

[70sFan]

Do you have them for Wilt/Kareem as well?

Note - relative numbers are adjusted for league average, not opponent. It makes the numbers clearly deflated, but this is how I did it back when I collected data.

These data are against -4.0 or better rDRtg.

1960-68 Wilt vs elite/ATG defenses:

1960 vs Celtics: 30.5 ppg, 2.0 apg on 51.1 TS% (+4.75 rTS%)
1962 vs Celtics: 33.6 ppg, 2.9 apg on 51.5 TS% (+3.63 rTS%)
1964 vs Celtics: 29.2 ppg, 2.4 apg on 50.9 TS% (+2.43 rTS%)
1965 vs Celtics: 30.1 ppg, 3.3 apg on 57.5 TS% (+9.62 rTS%)
1966 vs Celtics: 28.0 ppg, 3.0 apg on 50.0 TS% (+1.33 rTS%)
1967 vs Celtics: 21.6 ppg, 10.0 apg on 56.4 TS% (+7.09 rTS%)
1968 vs Celtics: 22.1 ppg, 6.7 apg on 48.6 TS% (-1.20 rTS%)

Overall: 28.1 ppg, 4.3 apg on 52.2 TS% (+3.84 rTS%)

Post 1968, Wilt also faced 1969 Celtics, 1970 Knicks, 1971 Bucks, 1972 Bucks and 1973 Knicks

1970-80 Kareem vs elite/ATG defenses:

1970 vs Knicks: 34.2 ppg, 4.8 apg on 58.5 TS% (+7.41 rTS%)
1972 vs Lakers: 33.7 ppg, 4.8 apg on 48.2 TS% (-2.25 rTS%)
1974 vs Bulls: 34.8 ppg, 3.8 apg on 67.3 TS% (+17.0 rTS%)
1980 vs Sonics: 30.6 ppg, 3.8 apg on 59.9 TS% (+6.90 rTS%)
1980 vs Sixers: 33.4 ppg, 3.2 apg on 57.8 TS% (+4.70 rTS%)

Overall: 33.3 ppg, 4.1 apg on 56.9 TS% (+5.28 rTS%)

Post 1980, Kareem also faced 1988 Jazz.

2008-20 LeBron vs elite/ATG defenses:

2008 vs Celtics: 26.7 ppg, 7.6 apg on 48.0 TS% (-5.95 rTS%)
2009 vs Magic: 38.5 ppg, 8.0 apg on 59.1 TS% (+4.72 rTS%)
2011 vs Celtics: 28.0 ppg, 3.6 apg on 55.4 TS% (+1.24 rTS%)
2011 vs Bulls: 25.8 ppg, 6.6 apg on 56.9 TS% (+2.80 rTS%)
2012 vs Celtics: 33.6 ppg, 3.9 apg on 58.7 TS% (+5.99 rTS%)
2013 vs Pacers: 29.0 ppg, 5.3 apg on 60.9 TS% (+7.37 rTS%)
2013 vs Spurs: 25.3 ppg, 7.0 apg on 52.9 TS% (-0.56 rTS%)
2014 vs Pacers: 22.8 ppg, 5.5 apg on 63.7 TS% (+9.61 rTS%)
2014 vs Spurs: 28.2 ppg, 4.0 apg on 67.9 TS% (+13.85 rTS%)
2015 vs Warriors: 35.8 ppg, 8.8 apg on 47.7 TS% (-5.72 rTS%)
2016 vs Hawks: 24.3 ppg, 7.8 apg on 57.3 TS% (+3.17 rTS%)
2017 vs Warriors: 33.6 ppg, 10.0 apg on 63.0 TS% (+7.83 rTS%)
2018 vs Celtics: 33.6 ppg, 8.4 apg on 61.0 TS% (+5.41 rTS%)

Overall: 29.8 ppg, 6.6 apg on 57.1 TS% (+2.93% rTS)

Pre 2008, LeBron also faced 2007 Spurs.

[feyki]

Even with considering Wilt faced %48 DTS teams,Kareem faced %51,5 DTS teams and Lebron's facing with %54 DTS teams and also Kareem and Wilt played under %16,5/17 TOV and Lebron played within the %12,5/13 TOV. Definitely Lebron's efficiency not high as common.

Colbini, I agree with you, Kobe also faced weaker defensive teams between the 08/10, but probably not many as Lebron's 11/14.

[70sFan]

Even with considering Wilt faced %48 DTS teams,Kareem faced %51,5 DTS teams and Lebron's facing with %54 DTS teams and also Kareem and Wilt played under %16,5/17 TOV and Lebron played within the %12,5/13 TOV. Definitely Lebron's efficiency not high as common.

Colbini, I agree with you, Kobe also faced weaker defensive teams between the 08/10, but probably not many as Lebron's 11/14.

LeBron faced the best defensive teams of his career in 2011-14 span. He faced Celtics twice, Pacers three times, Spurs twice and 2011 Bulls.

[feyki]

Even with considering Wilt faced %48 DTS teams,Kareem faced %51,5 DTS teams and Lebron's facing with %54 DTS teams and also Kareem and Wilt played under %16,5/17 TOV and Lebron played within the %12,5/13 TOV. Definitely Lebron's efficiency not high as common.

Colbini, I agree with you, Kobe also faced weaker defensive teams between the 08/10, but probably not many as Lebron's 11/14.

LeBron faced the best defensive teams of his career in 2011-14 span. He faced Celtics twice, Pacers three times, Spurs twice and 2011 Bulls.

Leave out Pacers, it's %31 of the series. Probably you recognized why I'd leave Pacers. For an example between the 01/04 Kobe faced 99 DRtg teams as the average(If exclude 2001 due to non-competitive road, it's 99,5).

[70sFan]

Even with considering Wilt faced %48 DTS teams,Kareem faced %51,5 DTS teams and Lebron's facing with %54 DTS teams and also Kareem and Wilt played under %16,5/17 TOV and Lebron played within the %12,5/13 TOV. Definitely Lebron's efficiency not high as common.

Colbini, I agree with you, Kobe also faced weaker defensive teams between the 08/10, but probably not many as Lebron's 11/14.

LeBron faced the best defensive teams of his career in 2011-14 span. He faced Celtics twice, Pacers three times, Spurs twice and 2011 Bulls.

Leave out Pacers, it's %31 of the series. Probably you recognized why I'd leave Pacers. For an example between the 01/04 Kobe faced 99 DRtg teams as the average(If exclude 2001 due to non-competitive road, it's 99,5).

I don't know why you excluded Pacers, they were legitimately great defensive team.

[feyki]

LeBron faced the best defensive teams of his career in 2011-14 span. He faced Celtics twice, Pacers three times, Spurs twice and 2011 Bulls.

Leave out Pacers, it's %31 of the series. Probably you recognized why I'd leave Pacers. For an example between the 01/04 Kobe faced 99 DRtg teams as the average(If exclude 2001 due to non-competitive road, it's 99,5).

I don't know why you excluded Pacers, they were legitimately great defensive team.

They were negative SRS team in the second half of the season. They started well but had some problems after on. Not a match for the Heat.

[70sFan]

Leave out Pacers, it's %31 of the series. Probably you recognized why I'd leave Pacers. For an example between the 01/04 Kobe faced 99 DRtg teams as the average(If exclude 2001 due to non-competitive road, it's 99,5).

I don't know why you excluded Pacers, they were legitimately great defensive team.

They were negative SRS team in the second half of the season. They started well but had some problems after on. Not a match for the Heat.

You're talking about 2014 Pacers, Heat faced Indiana 3 times in this period. Besides, Pacers were still good defensively in the second part of the season. Not ATG level anymore, but still very good.

[McBubbles]

Leave out Pacers, it's %31 of the series. Probably you recognized why I'd leave Pacers. For an example between the 01/04 Kobe faced 99 DRtg teams as the average(If exclude 2001 due to non-competitive road, it's 99,5).

I don't know why you excluded Pacers, they were legitimately great defensive team.

They were negative SRS team in the second half of the season. They started well but had some problems after on. Not a match for the Heat.

'Second half of the season?" He played then for 3 seasons in a row.

Also Kobe's defensive competition wasn't weak from 08-10. In 08 he played the #3 defence in the league in the Spurs followed by the number #1 defence in the league and arguably the best defence in NBA history in the Celtics, and the #1 defence in the league in the 09 Finals in the Magic.

[feyki]

I don't know why you excluded Pacers, they were legitimately great defensive team.

They were negative SRS team in the second half of the season. They started well but had some problems after on. Not a match for the Heat.

'Second half of the season?" He played then for 3 seasons in a row.

Also Kobe's defensive competition wasn't weak from 08-10. In 08 he played the #3 defence in the league in the Spurs followed by the number #1 defence in the league and arguably the best defence in NBA history in the Celtics, and the #1 defence in the league in the 09 Finals in the Magic.

I don't know why you excluded Pacers, they were legitimately great defensive team.

They were negative SRS team in the second half of the season. They started well but had some problems after on. Not a match for the Heat.

You're talking about 2014 Pacers, Heat faced Indiana 3 times in this period. Besides, Pacers were still good defensively in the second part of the season. Not ATG level anymore, but still very good.

I don't take into account the series if there's 3-4 SRS difference. 2014 Pacers when going into the Playoffs, they were likely average SRS team and Heat a bit better than regular season(6? 5 definitely). 11/13 Heat were at least 7,5/8 SRS teams, of course any of those Pacers team can't compete with them.

I'd explain it(for the thousandth time) with that way, Kareem played against 1th best defence(93,5) with 34,8 PPG and %67,5 TS and played against second best defence(93,6) with 32,6 PPG and with %55,2 TS in the 1974 Playoffs. Wonder Why?

[ty 4191]

I'd explain it(for the thousandth time) with that way, Kareem played against 1th best defence(93,5) with 34,8 PPG and %67,5 TS and played against second best defence(93,6) with 32,6 PPG and with %55,2 TS in the 1974 Playoffs. Wonder Why?

That's true, although, Kareem never faced a single All Time Great (-7 or better) defense in his career, in 49 Series across 18 Seasons.

Wilt vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
45% of total playoff games played
47.2 MPG
25.0 PPG
26.6 RBG
3.5 AST/G
rTS%: +3.8%

Lebron vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
22.1% of total playoff games played
42.3 MPG
26.3 PGG
7.8 RBG
6.5 AST/G
rTS%: -1.3%

Kareem vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses:
13.9% of total playoff games played
42.1 MPG
29.4 PPG
14.2 RBG
3.8 AST/G
rTS%: +4.8%

Jordan vs. Elite + All Time Great Defenses
33.0% of total playoff games played
42.1 MPG
32.7 PPG
6.3 RBG
6.3 AST/G
rTS%: 0.15%

[Joao Saraiva]

I added Hakeem and interestingly, he didn't play better against elite teams than Shaq, Kareem or Wilt. He completely dominated good and average teams but he wasn't that unstoppable against better ones. Another interesting thing is that Hakeem is regulary praised for playing better in postseason (rightfully so) but he faced good defensive teams almost 2 times less often than Shaq and elite teams over three times less often than Wilt. Competition may make you look better or worse, but so far I'm not sure I'd call Hakeem superior PS performer than Wilt.

...

I added 2004 Shaq to my calculations. Next one will be Admiral, be ready for this

While I understand what you're saying about Hakeem, you gotta keep in mind Hakeem wasn't usually surrounded by the same talent level that Shaq or KAJ were. There was no Magic for Hakeem, or Kobe, or Oscar, or Wade for the most part. The best teammate he had was probably Drexler, and he's not at the same level as the others.

[70sFan]

I added Hakeem and interestingly, he didn't play better against elite teams than Shaq, Kareem or Wilt. He completely dominated good and average teams but he wasn't that unstoppable against better ones. Another interesting thing is that Hakeem is regulary praised for playing better in postseason (rightfully so) but he faced good defensive teams almost 2 times less often than Shaq and elite teams over three times less often than Wilt. Competition may make you look better or worse, but so far I'm not sure I'd call Hakeem superior PS performer than Wilt.

...

I added 2004 Shaq to my calculations. Next one will be Admiral, be ready for this

While I understand what you're saying about Hakeem, you gotta keep in mind Hakeem wasn't usually surrounded by the same talent level that Shaq or KAJ were. There was no Magic for Hakeem, or Kobe, or Oscar, or Wade for the most part. The best teammate he had was probably Drexler, and he's not at the same level as the others.

Kareem had some poor supporting casts in 1974-79 period as well and it didn't influence his postseason production.

[Joao Saraiva]

I added Hakeem and interestingly, he didn't play better against elite teams than Shaq, Kareem or Wilt. He completely dominated good and average teams but he wasn't that unstoppable against better ones. Another interesting thing is that Hakeem is regulary praised for playing better in postseason (rightfully so) but he faced good defensive teams almost 2 times less often than Shaq and elite teams over three times less often than Wilt. Competition may make you look better or worse, but so far I'm not sure I'd call Hakeem superior PS performer than Wilt.




I added 2004 Shaq to my calculations. Next one will be Admiral, be ready for this

While I understand what you're saying about Hakeem, you gotta keep in mind Hakeem wasn't usually surrounded by the same talent level that Shaq or KAJ were. There was no Magic for Hakeem, or Kobe, or Oscar, or Wade for the most part. The best teammate he had was probably Drexler, and he's not at the same level as the others.

Kareem had some poor supporting casts in 1974-79 period as well and it didn't influence his postseason production.

Yeah it didn't. He missed them twice, and played 3, 8 and 11 games in the other 3 years. It influenced to a point of the sample size being very low.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Here is how some notable players did during their arguable prime 5-year stretch in terms of performance and average defenses they faced (recording was done by taking the relative defenses faced through playoff series’ by a player, and taking a weighted average of these by games played).

Lebron from 09-13, faced an average defense of -2.68. His Backpicks BPM ranking all-time is #2 all-time (stat goes back to 60's).

Steph from 15-19, faced an average defense of -2.13. His Backpicks BPM 5-year ranking is #14.

Kobe from 06-10, faced an average defense of -1.23. His Backpicks BPM 5-year ranking is #19.

Shaq' from 98-02, faced an average defense of -1.2. His Backpicks BPM 5-year ranking is #13.

Larry Bird from 84-88, faced an average defense of -0.59. His Backpicks BPM 5-year ranking is #6.

Tim Duncan from 01-04, faced an average defense of -0.33. His Backpicks BPM 5-year ranking is #8.

Dirk Nowitzki from 02-06, faced an average defense of 0.72. His Backpicks BPM 5-year ranking is #16.

[HardenandWilt]

more proof harden is underrated in the playoffs

[70sFan]

more proof harden is underrated in the playoffs

Compared to whom? He faces good defensive teams less often than Jordan, Kobe and Wade (more often than Gervin) and he looks quite comparable to Kobe (slightly lesser volume on better efficiency, more assists but more turnovers), Wade (slighlty higher volume on worse efficiency, more assists but more turnovers) and Gervin (worse scoring numbers, but better assists/turnover ratio) but he's not on Jordan level.

He's underrated if you think that he's not close to Wade or Kobe offensively, but he's not underrated if you view him among the best scorers ever as he clearly looks less spectacular than Jordan, James, Kareem or Shaq.

[migya]

Context seems to be missing in this topic. In the 90s it was far more physical and rougher, much harder to score com powered to most eras. So a player going through hand checks and big bumps going to the basket were not going to score as much as someone getting the foul call nowadays or know n they'll get no contact. Players train for their environment and when you know you're going to have it rough you have that in your mind and it's harder than knowing the conditions are easier.