Greater: Kobe Bryant vs Stephen Curry

[Mamba Mentality]

Quite frankly I'm not a fan of advanced stats when we're talking about players in two different eras. Curry is playing in an era that specializes in iso ball and defense is predicated on switching so obviously Curry's statistical output is going to be inflated in comparison. Add that to the fact that he's had the luxury of playing with two of the most dominant offensive players in the league and a hybrid center who specializes in setting him up for shots...well that makes his job 100x easier. Not trying to take anything away from Curry, he's the greatest shooter of all time, but the stars definitely aligned for him.

[clyde21]

Curry had a higher offensive peak, but Kobe was a significantly better defender.
Kobe also had greater longevity, assuming a normal decline curve for Curry. Kobe was also the unquestioned best player on two title teams, while Curry only one. Curry also doesn't have a FMVP, while Kobe has 2.

It's a good comparison, but I feel like it's Kobe pretty comfortably tbh.

on ball defense for guards is so overrated in these discussions...the offensive gap between them is wider than defense...there's a reason Stephs impact metrics are infinitely better despite Kobe being a "way better defender"

Generally, if your favorite player isn't great at skill X, there's a good chance you don't really think skill X is that important. On ball defense for a guard is definitely important. And arguably it was even more important in Kobe's era than it is now with more restrictions now than ever, so you need to look at it from that angle.

But even now, this is a league where almost all the stars are perimeter players. Perimiter defense is the first line of defense. It determines their first step. If the opposing team has a star perimiter player (which is guaranteed right now, every team that is a threat right now has a star perimeter player), having someone who can harrass them is definitely valuable. Kobe could do that.

Lots of guys might have a higher peak than Kobe, and I include Steph in that category, but IMO it's going to be hard for Steph to catch Kobe, 1) because of longevity, and 2) It's really hard to argue against his results.

I think Kobe is overrated by the casual fan, and underrated by people who are obsessed with advanced metrics.

has nothing to do with Steph, this has always been my position regarding perimeter on ball defense...obviously it's important in its own capacity, but on a per position basis it's not nearly as valuable as many other aspects, especially when 're talking about all-time level offenses etc...it's not as simple as hey 'they're both good on offense but Kobe is better on defense so Kobe > Steph'. if that was the case we'd see it reflected in the advanced metrics...and it's not and has never been (take a look at Klay for example)

again, Steph has a better career, TS%, better PER, better WS/48, better BPM, better On/Off and it's not really that close...Kobe's best BPM season would rank as Steph's 7th best, Kobe's best TS% season would rank as Steph's 9th, Kobe's best WS/48 would rank as Steph's 4th...and Steph isn't even out of his prime yet.

to give the advantage to Kobe here because of 'defense' here just doesn't add up, no way does individual perimeter defense hold that much water in this discussion given the discrepancy in other more important categories

[GeorgeMarcus]

its funny how everyone that puts curry over Kobe is only talking about shooting and saying defense is overrated and that kobe wasnt a good defender even though he was all defense 1st team 9 times. i get you have to discredit defense to give curry the edge but all titels are won on defense even those of GSW.

can we just stop comparing players in the "oh you touched me thats a foul" era VS everything before that. because shooting % are up for a reason more fouls means less missed shots, means more FT means a higher TS and we all love to use TS with high percentage FT shooters who get ticky tacky fouls.

Kobe's game was much more reliant on drawing fouls than Steph's, lol.

Regardless you're misrepresenting pro-Curry arguments. If we had access to the information we have today I promise you Kobe doesn't sniff 9 All-Defensive teams. Impact is relative to era, and Curry's impact is demonstrably greater than Kobe's. If we forget longevity and focus on peak, Curry wins this by a country mile.

thats why in his "GOAT peak" year he barely scored 30 points a game and choked/lost in the finals realy the GOAT peak what did this guy bring in the playoffs?? beat an injured cavs lost in the biggest choke job, needed the best scorer in the current game to safe his ass and be the FMVP, Iggy stole the only chance of him having a FMVP, when KD and klay went down he couldnt do ****. he shot 53-128 FG 41,40% 23-67 3pts 34,32% against the raptors GOAT PEAK for sure.

Idk who you are quoting with "GOAT peak" but you might as well just reference the things I actually said. As far as playoffs go, Kobe averaged less points than Curry on way worse efficiency and worse winning percentage, so that's probably not the road you want to go down.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Curry obviously would still come out ahead... but you should at least be using relative TS. Cross season/era TS comparisons are fairly useless/meaningless.

TS is also somewhat of an overrated metric that ignores a lot of things (and to be clear - I'm not disagreeing with your premise... I just think posting a bunch of TS numbers like this isn't a great way to prove it).

I actually something along these lines.



2019 is around the allstar break and Curry dropped off from that freaky high point but the data otherwise is valid.

Yes - that's much better. It still ignores things like TOV, ORTG (and ORTG relative to team), etc,etc..but not sure we really need to spend all that time here since Curry would still come out well ahead on the offensive end . (and I know you know all this stuff... just kind of annoyed with the overuse of TS as some kind of all encompassing metric around here).

On the PC board I would have but in the same vein as not using impact metrics I didn't want to stray too far from digestible stats. Point taken though- I wouldn't have gone down that road if I didn't already know Curry had a significant advantage in efficiency relative to era.

[Danny1616]

I'm taking Curry any day of the week.

Kobe was great, but he's become super overrated since his retirement.

[Danny1616]

Quite frankly I'm not a fan of advanced stats when we're talking about players in two different eras. Curry is playing in an era that specializes in iso ball and defense is predicated on switching so obviously Curry's statistical output is going to be inflated in comparison. Add that to the fact that he's had the luxury of playing with two of the most dominant offensive players in the league and a hybrid center who specializes in setting him up for shots...well that makes his job 100x easier. Not trying to take anything away from Curry, he's the greatest shooter of all time, but the stars definitely aligned for him.

Curry was the main reason that the league changed.

Curry didn't benefit from this change...he **** created the change.

The reason defenses are predicated on switching is because Curry's 2015 and 2016 seasons destroyed the league.

[old skool]

Two great players, but Kobe was superior overall.

Curry is a spectacular shooter and a wizard getting to the basket. But he has never been considered the best player in the NBA, even when winning MVP.

Kobe was a star on both ends of the court, while GSW has to hide Curry on defense. That says it all.

I would pick prime Kobe over prime Curry every time, be it to start a team, play one season, play one game or go one on one against each other.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[XxIronChainzxX]

Curry had a higher offensive peak, but Kobe was a significantly better defender.
Kobe also had greater longevity, assuming a normal decline curve for Curry. Kobe was also the unquestioned best player on two title teams, while Curry only one. Curry also doesn't have a FMVP, while Kobe has 2.

It's a good comparison, but I feel like it's Kobe pretty comfortably tbh.

on ball defense for guards is so overrated in these discussions...the offensive gap between them is wider than defense...there's a reason Stephs impact metrics are infinitely better despite Kobe being a "way better defender"

There isn't enough there to supplant Kobe's achivements. Curry had less success than Shaq / Kobe with a stronger team, a career than was shorter, fewer titles, fewer notable playoff performances, and he's running out of time. A few years of notable advanced statistics just isn't enough of a resume despite his incredible peak, and a two year run that's one of the greatest ever.

[Frozzy]

Two great players, but Kobe was superior overall.

Curry is a spectacular shooter and a wizard getting to the basket. But he has never been considered the best player in the NBA, even when winning MVP.

Kobe was a star on both ends of the court, while GSW has to hide Curry on defense. That says it all.

I would pick prime Kobe over prime Curry every time, be it to start a team, play one season, play one game or go one on one against each other.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Isn't that's what a lot of people say about Kobe lol, not saying it's true

[Mamba Mentality]

Quite frankly I'm not a fan of advanced stats when we're talking about players in two different eras. Curry is playing in an era that specializes in iso ball and defense is predicated on switching so obviously Curry's statistical output is going to be inflated in comparison. Add that to the fact that he's had the luxury of playing with two of the most dominant offensive players in the league and a hybrid center who specializes in setting him up for shots...well that makes his job 100x easier. Not trying to take anything away from Curry, he's the greatest shooter of all time, but the stars definitely aligned for him.

Curry was the main reason that the league changed.

Curry didn't benefit from this change...he **** created the change.

The reason defenses are predicated on switching is because Curry's 2015 and 2016 seasons destroyed the league.

I'd argue that Mike D’Antoni inspired widespread changes more than anything or anyone else. He was the first to emphasize pace and space, the whole switching phenomena was just a reactionary byproduct of his offenses.

[clyde21]

Curry had a higher offensive peak, but Kobe was a significantly better defender.
Kobe also had greater longevity, assuming a normal decline curve for Curry. Kobe was also the unquestioned best player on two title teams, while Curry only one. Curry also doesn't have a FMVP, while Kobe has 2.

It's a good comparison, but I feel like it's Kobe pretty comfortably tbh.

on ball defense for guards is so overrated in these discussions...the offensive gap between them is wider than defense...there's a reason Stephs impact metrics are infinitely better despite Kobe being a "way better defender"

There isn't enough there to supplant Kobe's achivements. Curry had less success than Shaq / Kobe with a stronger team, a career than was shorter, fewer titles, fewer notable playoff performances, and he's running out of time. A few years of notable advanced statistics just isn't enough of a resume despite his incredible peak, and a two year run that's one of the greatest ever.

'stronger team'? meh...prime Shaq alone is probably worth Green/Klay combined...and 5 straight finals appearances, 3 titles, including a 73 win season...and from an advanced metrics standpoints it's not really all that close.

and Steph isn't even done...dude's still in his prime lol

[clyde21]

Quite frankly I'm not a fan of advanced stats when we're talking about players in two different eras. Curry is playing in an era that specializes in iso ball and defense is predicated on switching so obviously Curry's statistical output is going to be inflated in comparison. Add that to the fact that he's had the luxury of playing with two of the most dominant offensive players in the league and a hybrid center who specializes in setting him up for shots...well that makes his job 100x easier. Not trying to take anything away from Curry, he's the greatest shooter of all time, but the stars definitely aligned for him.

wut

you're saying this in a Steph vs Kobe thread?

[Danny1616]

Quite frankly I'm not a fan of advanced stats when we're talking about players in two different eras. Curry is playing in an era that specializes in iso ball and defense is predicated on switching so obviously Curry's statistical output is going to be inflated in comparison. Add that to the fact that he's had the luxury of playing with two of the most dominant offensive players in the league and a hybrid center who specializes in setting him up for shots...well that makes his job 100x easier. Not trying to take anything away from Curry, he's the greatest shooter of all time, but the stars definitely aligned for him.

Curry was the main reason that the league changed.

Curry didn't benefit from this change...he **** created the change.

The reason defenses are predicated on switching is because Curry's 2015 and 2016 seasons destroyed the league.

I'd argue that Mike D’Antoni inspired widespread changes more than anything or anyone else. He was first to emphasize pace and space, and whole switching phenomena was just a reactionary byproduct.

Curry took what the Nash-D'Antoni did...and put it on steroids.

3 point attempts slowly went up from 1995 until 2013 and then shot up from 21 a game to 32 a game in the span of 6 years.

During his MVP run Curry hit 400 3s in a season when no player before him had ever went above like 250...it was mind boggling.

Defenses changed because Curry was taking inefficient shots from beyond the arc and making those shots efficient. Teams couldn't guard the Warriors if they didn't switch because Curry would just kill you on the pick and roll everytime because he was hitting low percentage and difficult shots at 45% clip from...which is **** insane.

Dude, stop being a revisionist historian here...face the facts.

Curry changed the entire NBA by himself.

[Mamba Mentality]

Quite frankly I'm not a fan of advanced stats when we're talking about players in two different eras. Curry is playing in an era that specializes in iso ball and defense is predicated on switching so obviously Curry's statistical output is going to be inflated in comparison. Add that to the fact that he's had the luxury of playing with two of the most dominant offensive players in the league and a hybrid center who specializes in setting him up for shots...well that makes his job 100x easier. Not trying to take anything away from Curry, he's the greatest shooter of all time, but the stars definitely aligned for him.

wut

you're saying this in a Steph vs Kobe thread?

I don't know what you're tying to get at...sure Kobe was a heavy iso player but that wasn't by design.

[XxIronChainzxX]

on ball defense for guards is so overrated in these discussions...the offensive gap between them is wider than defense...there's a reason Stephs impact metrics are infinitely better despite Kobe being a "way better defender"

There isn't enough there to supplant Kobe's achivements. Curry had less success than Shaq / Kobe with a stronger team, a career than was shorter, fewer titles, fewer notable playoff performances, and he's running out of time. A few years of notable advanced statistics just isn't enough of a resume despite his incredible peak, and a two year run that's one of the greatest ever.

'stronger team'? meh...prime Shaq alone is probably worth Green/Klay combined...and 5 straight finals appearances, 3 titles, including a 73 win season...and from an advanced metrics standpoints it's not really all that close.

and Steph isn't even done...dude's still in his prime lol

Prime Shaq + Kobe, versus KD, Curry, Klay, and Steph in their respective eras? That Warriors team was better IMO, and they played one meaningful series in 3 years. The 3peat Lakers 15-1'd one playoffs, but had tough fights the other years.

Anyway, Steph needs more than just a couple of all-NBA teams. Even 1st teams. Another MVP at least, and a finals run. Then he's arguably close thanks to his peak. Still hard to see it on resume.

[snaquille oatmeal]

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

Sorry but no.

Odom was much better than Dray? I think you're underrating Dray's passing ability.

You are not comparing the 2005-2007 Lakers rosters to the Warriors rosters are you? Maybe you misread my post. Mihm, Smush Parker, Odom, Kwame Brown did not attract defenses the way Thompson, Iggy, KD, Dray, Livingston do, come on bro!

[clyde21]

There isn't enough there to supplant Kobe's achivements. Curry had less success than Shaq / Kobe with a stronger team, a career than was shorter, fewer titles, fewer notable playoff performances, and he's running out of time. A few years of notable advanced statistics just isn't enough of a resume despite his incredible peak, and a two year run that's one of the greatest ever.

'stronger team'? meh...prime Shaq alone is probably worth Green/Klay combined...and 5 straight finals appearances, 3 titles, including a 73 win season...and from an advanced metrics standpoints it's not really all that close.

and Steph isn't even done...dude's still in his prime lol

Prime Shaq + Kobe, versus KD, Curry, Klay, and Steph in their respective eras? That Warriors team was better IMO, and they played one meaningful series in 3 years. The 3peat Lakers 15-1'd one playoffs, but had tough fights the other years.

Anyway, Steph needs more than just a couple of all-NBA teams. Even 1st teams. Another MVP at least, and a finals run. Then he's arguably close thanks to his peak. Still hard to see it on resume.

Durant wasn't there the entire time...Steph won 67+ring and 73+wcf before Durant got there...Kobe's first 3 rings he wasn't even the best player on his team and it really wasn't all that close...

[clyde21]

Quite frankly I'm not a fan of advanced stats when we're talking about players in two different eras. Curry is playing in an era that specializes in iso ball and defense is predicated on switching so obviously Curry's statistical output is going to be inflated in comparison. Add that to the fact that he's had the luxury of playing with two of the most dominant offensive players in the league and a hybrid center who specializes in setting him up for shots...well that makes his job 100x easier. Not trying to take anything away from Curry, he's the greatest shooter of all time, but the stars definitely aligned for him.

wut

you're saying this in a Steph vs Kobe thread?

I don't know what you're tying to get at...sure Kobe was a heavy iso player but that wasn't by design.

you don't even make any sense...are you saying Steph is the ISO-heavy player in this equation?

[dhsilv2]

Sorry but no.

Odom was much better than Dray? I think you're underrating Dray's passing ability.

You are not comparing the 2005-2007 Lakers rosters to the Warriors rosters are you? Maybe you misread my post. Mihm, Smush Parker, Odom, Kwame Brown did not attract defenses the way Thompson, Iggy, KD, Dray, Livingston do, come on bro!

So 3 years where the lakers made the playoffs twice and lost in the first round the other two times. I just assumed you weren't usin those as plus years for Kobe. Congrats he can shoot contested shots well?

[Mamba Mentality]

wut

you're saying this in a Steph vs Kobe thread?

I don't know what you're tying to get at...sure Kobe was a heavy iso player but that wasn't by design.

you don't even make any sense...are you saying Steph is the ISO-heavy player in this equation?

I'm not sure what you don't understand. Steph is playing in an era that's all about exploiting big men/mismatches. Guys like Curry, Harden, Dame, Lebron, Irving, ect. all make a killing getting those guys on an island and putting them in a grinder. Kobe was a heavy iso player but not because the league dictated that style of play rather because he was a dominant force playing that style of basketball. With the way rosters are constructed and the way the league is officiated it's a lot easier to score efficiently than it was during majority of Kobe's career.