Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant?

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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#101 » by Strepbacter » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:15 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
Strepbacter wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
At this point there is no use in continuing. You're clearly salty and unwilling to have any kind of meaningful discussion. To be honest I'm kinda done with this as well. How about we just don't mention Kobe for the next month or so?


Yeah, anybody who disagrees with you is obviously just "salty"

Take a break.


Lmao I just said let's leave this be since it won't get any of anywhere but you can't even do that.


...but you still decided to respond.

Go cool off.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#102 » by 70sFan » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:15 pm

Strepbacter wrote:I wonder how it's possible that peak Bryant anchored a team that was more than comparable to any Magic led team, even though he had didn't have a more talented supporting cast.

Kobe's 2008-10 casts were more talented than Magic's 1988-91 though, that's the point.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#103 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:22 pm

Strepbacter wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Strepbacter wrote:
Yeah, anybody who disagrees with you is obviously just "salty"

Take a break.


Lmao I just said let's leave this be since it won't get any of anywhere but you can't even do that.


...but you still decided to respond.

Go cool off.


Of course I respond when you talk like that. You're picking fights with strangers on an internet forum for the glory of a man who never knew you existed. You're being a little pest and you know it. The sooner you understand you're not bringing any value the better.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#104 » by Strepbacter » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:23 pm

His cast wasn't better than what Magic had around him at his consensus peak. And they certainly didn't have more offensive talent in seasons like 09 and 2010.

You don't have a point.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#105 » by Strepbacter » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:28 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
Strepbacter wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Lmao I just said let's leave this be since it won't get any of anywhere but you can't even do that.


...but you still decided to respond.

Go cool off.


Of course I respond when you talk like that.


...and now you're throwing around insults. You're getting riled up because somebody disagreed with you.

Take your own advice and take a break.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#106 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:29 pm

Strepbacter wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Strepbacter wrote:
...but you still decided to respond.

Go cool off.


Of course I respond when you talk like that.


...and now you're throwing around insults. You're getting riled up because somebody disagreed with you.

Take your own advice and take a break.


Do you never get tired from trolling?
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#107 » by ceiling raiser » Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:57 pm

I never understood the point of tearing down other legendary players from one's own favorite franchise in order to artificially prop up guys you might prefer slightly more in terms of playstyle or persona.

The Lakers have had more all-time great players than anybody. Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, West, and recently even LeBron are all in the pantheon of NBA GOATs. Why not appreciate them all?
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#108 » by Strepbacter » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:06 pm

I know that was your best attempt to provoke, but creating a bunch of feeble strawmen isn't going to get you anywhere.

Nice try tho.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#109 » by LAL1947 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:40 am

70sFan wrote:I wonder how is that possible that Magic anchored better offenses in 1988-91 period than Kobe ever did after Shaq left, even though he didn't have more talented supporting casts.

Back up, Felicia! Say that again?? Magic didn't have more talented supporting casts than Kobe ever did after Shaq left? :o

I can't even imagine trying to compare a team with James Worthy, AC Green, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper to... Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Ronny Turiaf, etc... let alone somehow managing to conclude that the two teams were as talented, hahaha! If you actually believe this, then it makes sense why you rate Tim Duncan over Kobe in the Top 10 All-time list... lol... but unfortunately for you, it just isn't true. :lol:
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#110 » by wojoaderge » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:45 am

#16
"Coach, why don't you just relax? We're not good enough to beat the Lakers. We've had a great year, why don't you just relax and cool down?"
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#111 » by 70sFan » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:32 am

LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I wonder how is that possible that Magic anchored better offenses in 1988-91 period than Kobe ever did after Shaq left, even though he didn't have more talented supporting casts.

Back up, Felicia! Say that again?? Magic didn't have more talented supporting casts than Kobe ever did after Shaq left? :o

I can't even imagine trying to compare a team with James Worthy, AC Green, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper to... Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Ronny Turiaf, etc... let alone somehow managing to conclude that the two teams were as talented, hahaha! If you actually believe this, then it makes sense why you rate Tim Duncan over Kobe in the Top 10 All-time list... lol... but unfortunately for you, it just isn't true. :lol:

Where did I say that Kobe had better team in 2006 or 2007? Are you really struggling to understand what you read, or do you quote me with a bad faith?
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#112 » by LAL1947 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:59 am

70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I wonder how is that possible that Magic anchored better offenses in 1988-91 period than Kobe ever did after Shaq left, even though he didn't have more talented supporting casts.

Back up, Felicia! Say that again?? Magic didn't have more talented supporting casts than Kobe ever did after Shaq left? :o

I can't even imagine trying to compare a team with James Worthy, AC Green, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper to... Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Ronny Turiaf, etc... let alone somehow managing to conclude that the two teams were as talented, hahaha! If you actually believe this, then it makes sense why you rate Tim Duncan over Kobe in the Top 10 All-time list... lol... but unfortunately for you, it just isn't true. :lol:

Where did I say that Kobe had better team in 2006 or 2007? Are you really struggling to understand what you read, or do you quote me with a bad faith?

You have said it right there... and I have quoted your own words... without any edits.

"Magic anchored better offenses in 1988-91 period than Kobe ever did after Shaq left, even though he didn't have more talented supporting casts."

What you have written translates to exactly this: The talent of Magic's supporting cast between 1988-91 was less than or equal to all teams that Kobe had after Shaq left. Shaq left the Lakers in 2004, therefore, the teams of 2006 and 2007 are included in this group.

Is English your first language? If it is not, you probably shouldn't be asking me if I'm "really struggling to understand what I read"... because that sounds pompous, when it is you who should be improving how you write instead.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#113 » by 70sFan » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:10 am

LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:Back up, Felicia! Say that again?? Magic didn't have more talented supporting casts than Kobe ever did after Shaq left? :o

I can't even imagine trying to compare a team with James Worthy, AC Green, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper to... Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Ronny Turiaf, etc... let alone somehow managing to conclude that the two teams were as talented, hahaha! If you actually believe this, then it makes sense why you rate Tim Duncan over Kobe in the Top 10 All-time list... lol... but unfortunately for you, it just isn't true. :lol:

Where did I say that Kobe had better team in 2006 or 2007? Are you really struggling to understand what you read, or do you quote me with a bad faith?

You have said it right there... and I have quoted your own words... without any edits.

"Magic anchored better offenses in 1988-91 period than Kobe ever did after Shaq left, even though he didn't have more talented supporting casts."

What you have written translates to exactly this: The talent of Magic's supporting cast between 1988-91 was less than or equal to all teams that Kobe had after Shaq left. Shaq left the Lakers in 2004, therefore, the teams of 2006 and 2007 are included in this group.

Is English your first language? If it is not, you probably shouldn't be asking me if I'm "really struggling to understand what I read"... because that sounds pompous, when it is you who should be improving how you write instead.

No, this means that Kobe played with some comparable teams past 2004 - not that all of these teams are comparable. Maybe I should have said it cleaner, but I think that my point is clear when you read all my posts in this thread without a bad faith.

2008-10 Lakera weren't less talented than 1988-91 Lakers, but 2005-07 certainly were. Kobe didn't reach the level of Magic-led offenses at any point of that period. That was my point, nothing less and nothing more.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#114 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:16 am

Imagine acting superior because you were born in an English speaking country but still barely speak it as well as people who learned it as a second or even third langauge.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#115 » by LAL1947 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:56 am

70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Where did I say that Kobe had better team in 2006 or 2007? Are you really struggling to understand what you read, or do you quote me with a bad faith?

You have said it right there... and I have quoted your own words... without any edits.

"Magic anchored better offenses in 1988-91 period than Kobe ever did after Shaq left, even though he didn't have more talented supporting casts."

What you have written translates to exactly this: The talent of Magic's supporting cast between 1988-91 was less than or equal to all teams that Kobe had after Shaq left. Shaq left the Lakers in 2004, therefore, the teams of 2006 and 2007 are included in this group.

Is English your first language? If it is not, you probably shouldn't be asking me if I'm "really struggling to understand what I read"... because that sounds pompous, when it is you who should be improving how you write instead.

No, this means that Kobe played with some comparable teams past 2004 - not that all of these teams are comparable. Maybe I should have said it cleaner, but I think that my point is clear when you read all my posts in this thread without a bad faith.

2008-10 Lakera weren't less talented than 1988-91 Lakers, but 2005-07 certainly were. Kobe didn't reach the level of Magic-led offenses at any point of that period. That was my point, nothing less and nothing more.

When you've made a mistake, I think it is better to accept your mistake gracefully and learn from it, and not accuse me of purposely misunderstanding something in bad faith.

Are you trying to say it is "arguable" that James Worthy, AC Green, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott were comparable to or less talented than Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher? This has reached laughable levels now. Magic most certainly had the better or more talented supporting cast. This is not "arguable"... it is inarguable. The only people who would try to "argue" it are those trying to play mental gymnastics for another purpose.... or fans of Lamar, Artest, and Fisher. Since I assume you are not the latter, it means you are doing the former. James Worthy > Lamar Odom. AC Green Ron Artest. Byron Scott > Derek Fisher. Pau Gasol is the only one better than his 1988 counterpart, Mychal Thompson.

Kobe was not the team's facilitator... and your point is irrelevant since the original point was that outside of assists, Kobe was more skillful than Magic and took more of his skills to new heights. Magic has never displayed Kobe's level of individual brilliance... not because he never wanted to... but because he didn't have the same skill level and was good at other things. So quit being disingenuous by bringing team-play into it. You also tried to use other "stretches of imagination" even there, trying to say that Magic's shooting was "comparable" to Kobe's. No, it just was simply not.

Anyway, I'm not going to spend my days debating all of your mental gymnastics and "arguable" stretches of imagination. This "debate' is already very tiresome as it is... since you are re-writing history to fit your Timmy-loving narrative. If you keep doing stuff like that, I'm simply going to point it out... and not engage you in conversations.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#116 » by 70sFan » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:13 am

LAL1947 wrote:When you've made a mistake, I think it is better to accept your mistake gracefully and learn from it, and not accuse me of purposely misunderstanding something in bad faith.

I didn't make any mistake though and you clearly misunderstood me.

Are you trying to say it is "arguable" that James Worthy, AC Green, Mychal Thompson, Byron Scott were comparable to or less talented than Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher? This has reached laughable levels now. Magic most certainly had the better or more talented supporting cast. This is not "arguable"... it is inarguable. The only people who would try to "argue" it are those trying to play mental gymnastics for another purpose.... or fans of Lamar, Artest, and Fisher. Since I assume you are not the latter, it means you are doing the former. James Worthy > Lamar Odom. AC Green Ron Artest. Byron Scott > Derek Fisher. Pau Gasol is the only one better than his 1988 counterpart, Mychal Thompson.

Could you make a solid case for 1990 Lakers being clearly more talented than 2009 or 2010 Lakers? Just please, try to go further than "it's laughable, everybody knows it".

I don't understand why you even mention AC Green or Mychal Thompson. Thompson's only value was his scrappy post defense, but even there he was undersized. He wasn't much of a rebounder, he was a bad passer, he couldn't create his own shot and he wasn't a good finisher (outside of his outlier 1989 season). He was past prime undersized veteran with extremely limited role. He was much worse than both Gasol and Bynum. I fail to see how AC Green was better than Artest as well.

Worthy vs Gasol is a good debate, I prefer Gasol personally for his better defense and passing. It is close though, you are right.

Odom vs Scott is only close because of how well Scott fit next to Magic. All-around, Odom was more versatile and valuable player.

Again, these teams are definitely comparable. It seems that you throw around names without knowing much about them.

Kobe was not the team's facilitator... and your point is irrelevant since the original point was that outside of assists, Kobe was more skillful than Magic and took more of his skills to new heights. Magic has never displayed Kobe's level of individual brilliance... not because he never wanted to... but because he didn't have the same skill level and was good at other things. So quit being disingenuous by bringing team-play into it. You also tried to use other "stretches of imagination" even there, trying to say that Magic's shooting was "comparable" to Kobe's. No, it just was simply not.

But your vision of "skills" is only limited to scoring skills, which is very crude way of looking at basketball. Players can impact the game in variety of ways and the impact is more important than any number of skills shown on basketball court.

Anyway, I'm not going to spend my days debating all of your mental gymnastics and "arguable" stretches of imagination. This "debate' is already very tiresome as it is... since you are re-writing history to fit your Timmy-loving narrative. If you keep doing stuff like that, I'm simply going to point it out... and not engage you in conversations.

It's very, very ironic coming out of your mouth. I don't care what you think about me, I also don't care if you like Duncan or not. You accuse me of being Timmy-lover, but I don't spend all my time on this board trying to make my favorite player look like a god. I have a lot of basketball idols from various eras and I can look critical at Duncan when necessary. Try to do the same thing with Kobe next time :wink:
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#117 » by Strepbacter » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:13 am

70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Where did I say that Kobe had better team in 2006 or 2007? Are you really struggling to understand what you read, or do you quote me with a bad faith?

You have said it right there... and I have quoted your own words... without any edits.

"Magic anchored better offenses in 1988-91 period than Kobe ever did after Shaq left, even though he didn't have more talented supporting casts."

What you have written translates to exactly this: The talent of Magic's supporting cast between 1988-91 was less than or equal to all teams that Kobe had after Shaq left. Shaq left the Lakers in 2004, therefore, the teams of 2006 and 2007 are included in this group.

Is English your first language? If it is not, you probably shouldn't be asking me if I'm "really struggling to understand what I read"... because that sounds pompous, when it is you who should be improving how you write instead.

No, this means that Kobe played with some comparable teams past 2004 - not that all of these teams are comparable. Maybe I should have said it cleaner, but I think that my point is clear when you read all my posts in this thread without a bad faith.

2008-10 Lakera weren't less talented than 1988-91 Lakers, but 2005-07 certainly were. Kobe didn't reach the level of Magic-led offenses at any point of that period. That was my point, nothing less and nothing more.


You don't have a point. You're talking about offensive talent, but The 09 and especially the 2010 Lakers were quite defensively oriented/slanted and clearly not as talented on O. The 08 Lakers were actually offensively oriented/slanted (but without blatantly sacrificing their defense/rebounding) and had excellent offensive talent/shooting, but were riddled with injuries/roster turnover. They finished with a +5.5 ORTG. The 88 Lakers were at +5.0. The 89 team was at +6.0. The 90 was at 5.9 and the 91 was at +4.2. All those LA teams had much better health/roster continuity

Kobe didn't reach the level of Magic-led offenses at any point of that period.


:lol:

This is completely false. That's exactly what he did in 2008...with a roster that had all sorts of turnover. Get your facts straight.

In fact, the "healthy" 08 Lakers posted a team offense that was among the highest in history and that matched any Magic led team.

The Best “Healthy” Offenses of All-Time

https://backpicks.com/2016/08/01/the-best-healthy-offenses-of-all-time/

90 LA: +8.7
08 LA: +8.7
87 LA: +8.4

Not that this is gospel, but you haven't "proven" anything.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#118 » by LAL1947 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:13 am

Dutchball97 wrote:Imagine acting superior because you were born in an English speaking country but still barely speak it as well as people who learned it as a second or even third langauge.

Wow, you're a disingenuous lil fella. I'm not being superior because I speak English better. I'm simply pointing out that when someone doesn't speak the language fluently, yet chooses to be pompous when they've made a mistake... then it doesn't behoove them in any way. I'm not going to be apologetic about correctly understanding a wrongly written post.
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#119 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:23 am

LAL1947 wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:Imagine acting superior because you were born in an English speaking country but still barely speak it as well as people who learned it as a second or even third langauge.

Wow, you're a disingenuous lil fella. I'm not being superior because I speak English better. No, dear disingenuous person... I'm simply pointing out that when someone who doesn't speak the language well chooses be pompous when they have made a mistake instead of engaging in conversation with a friendlier tone... then it doesn't behoove them in any way. I'm not going to be apologetic about correctly understanding a wrongly written post... and then accused of reading it in bad faith. Nor am I going to let you twist my words and meaning in that despicable, disingenuous manner.


How about you screencap posts by you, me and 70sfan and send them to an English professor and see if he can tell which one of us is the native speaker. Hint: he likely won't think it is the guy talking in a pseudo-intellectual manner in a desperate attempt to sound smart.

Also when you attack two non-native English speakers for their English when nobody has ever had any problem understanding either of us on here then of course I'm going to accuse you of acting superior and even somewhat xenophobic. You've only brought up 70sfan's English (and now for some reason mine as well) when he challenged your reading comprehension. You've clearly been nitpicking facts to make Kobe look better than he actually was and framing this discussion as if we're some insane Tim Duncan fans hellbent on disparaging Kobe, while I literally just gave you evidence in the post you replied to in that childish way that you're in the minority on this board with your take of Kobe > Duncan in the first place. Is anyone claiming Magic Johnson was better than Kobe a delussional Magic fan trying to bring Kobe down? How about people arguing for Hakeem ahead of Kobe? What about Bird? What about Shaq? What about Wilt? Are all these people just a bunch of crazy people unable to comprehend your vast knowledge of basketball?
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Re: Lowest reasonable ranking for Kobe Bryant? 

Post#120 » by LAL1947 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:34 am

Dutchball97 wrote:How about you screencap posts by you, me and 70sfan and send them to an English professor and see if he can tell which one of us is the native speaker. Hint: he likely won't think it is the guy talking in a pseudo-intellectual manner in a desperate attempt to sound smart.

Also when you attack two non-native English speakers for their English when nobody has ever had any problem understanding either of us on here then of course I'm going to accuse you of acting superior and even somewhat xenophobic. You've only brought up 70sfan's English (and now for some reason mine as well) when he challenged your reading comprehension. You've clearly been nitpicking facts to make Kobe look better than he actually was and framing this discussion as if we're some insane Tim Duncan fans hellbent on disparaging Kobe, while I literally just gave you evidence in the post you replied to in that childish way that you're in the minority on this board with your take of Kobe > Duncan in the first place. Is anyone claiming Magic Johnson was better than Kobe a delussional Magic fan trying to bring Kobe down? How about people arguing for Hakeem ahead of Kobe? What about Bird? What about Shaq? What about Wilt? Are all these people just a bunch of crazy people unable to comprehend your vast knowledge of basketball?

What I said to 70sFan is that it's not good to tell another that they are, "really struggling to understanding what they read" or "reading things in bad faith"... when one is making a mistake in what they've written themselves.

I'm not attacking you for your English. I'm calling you out for how you are twisting my words in such a disingenuous manner and calling me xenophobic, lol... as well as for your tendency to tell people you disagree with to post elsewhere because they're not good enough to post here. I think both are despicable things to do.

I have no other comment to make to you.

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